Deschenus Maximus Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Technically he does hide behind a rhino. His sword sticks out a bit to see but I think there is a rule for that. By the way I did check the stats for a scorpion and you were correct, they are only WS4 for the base, only the exarch is WS5. I apolgise for that, my bad. Correct, only the head, torso, legs and arms count for LoS. No worries about the scorps, everyone makes mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvious Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Correct, only the head, torso, legs and arms count for LoS. I thought there was something saying that in the rulebook. I need to check again to see what the deal is and what can be seen. No worries about the scorps, everyone makes mistakes. I was pretty shocked when I saw it and then saw that most of their stuff is only I4 excluding exarchs. I must be thinking of high elves for fantasy or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I thought there was something saying that in the rulebook. I need to check again to see what the deal is and what can be seen. I don't remember exactly where that is mentioned, but I believe its somewhere at the begining of the rules. I was pretty shocked when I saw it and then saw that most of their stuff is only I4 excluding exarchs. I must be thinking of high elves for fantasy or something. Well, in the DE book, basic troops are WS/BS 4 with I5, and Incubi are WS5 I6, so maybe you inferred it was the same with Aspect Warriors from that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Gonna run a list with sanguinor this weekend. (list in the list forum) Any interest in a bat-rep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvious Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Gonna run a list with sanguinor this weekend. (list in the list forum) Any interest in a bat-rep? Go on, I would love to hear one. It would interesting to see how you use The Sanguinor compared to me to see if its any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Gonna run a list with sanguinor this weekend. (list in the list forum) Any interest in a bat-rep? Go on, I would love to hear one. It would interesting to see how you use The Sanguinor compared to me to see if its any different. It's going to be target saturation games with DC, sanguinor and 5 dreads. Not a good all comers list by any means, but I think dreads are fun :D The plan is to use the Sanguinor to target PKs or units that could be harmful to the dreads, while the +1A bubble hopefully will give me the edge to not get bogged down. I've run a couple of dread lists in the past and there tends to be a tipping point in turn 2. If either player rolls poorly that will set the tone for the rest of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 In my opinion, the Sanguinor is a big game toy. At 1500 pts, him and a body guard is just too expensive for too little coverage. Yeah, they will kill the enemy HQ I get a reclusiarch, 11dc *and* a storm raven for not much more than him and his guard. If you deploy the Sanguinar, I detach my reclusiarch and let you have him, I might make you run through a gauntlet of bolter, melta, plasma and such fire first, you wont kill 500pts of my army with him At 6000pts, well, why not take a wing of stormravens, sangy, 5 guards, 6 assault terminators and 12 dc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Regarding survivability I got 144 lasgun shots to bring him down Thats turn 1 of my old 1500pt imperial guard army.... Obviously not everyone is going to be in range, for turn 1, but I had 150 foot sloggers, even FNP leaves him toast at 288 lasgun shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 him and a body guard ? Not sure what you mean by body guards, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 The Sanguinary Guard Them with their addons and The Sanguinor comes out at 530 Reclusiarch, 11 dc, 2 pf and a storm raven come out at 600 Dont get me wrong, the sangies will win that fight, but thats not really the point, all the sangies will do is slaughter my hq, which I think is a Capital G-reat exchange, I'll feed him to you and my dc and sr can concentrate on something else. Personaly, I'd prefer three vindicators as a big hq smasher (three demolishers Vs Calgar and retinue, so much fun :) ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgaryBA Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Lengthy, but this is my opinion/experience with sanguinor and some ways to use him. I've actually personally run Meph and Sang. at the same time in 1500-2000 point games. They weren't overly competitive tournament games or anything, but it was always very successful. Only had 1 close game and ended up winning that one. The real problem running them at once is deciding how to support them properly. The significant advantage is while both are on the field, it is very difficult for your opponents to focus down anything that isn't sanguinor or mephiston due to how much firepower it takes to bring down both of them. Add in a storm raven packed with assault terminators and some rhino/razorback shields and your opponents very quickly run into a lot of target priority problems. While offensively sanguinor isn't as destructive as mephiston, he is very powerful, especially as sweeping away other elite targets. No you don't want to throw him up against your opponent's rock unit.....if it's fair. But assault squad + mephiston + sanguinor, or your own assault terminator unit--that isn't a fair fight. It's also a fight you're very likely to win except virtually everything but a 10 man paladin squad with draigo. Sanguinor also wrecks light armor. Sure your assault marines do very well against light armor, but the purifiers inside that rhino or chimera are going to butcher assault marines, where as a Mephiston/Sanguinor combo has a good chance to wipe the purifiers. No, sanguinor isn't going to win a war of attrition very often with an orc boyz unit, but if they run a green tide unit than neither is a lone assault marine squad, so it's a silly comparison. Like has been mentioned a lot, that's fighting a vacuum. Sanguinor has the same significant strength mephiston does-size and speed. Being a single base model and having the speed and ability to get into spots and support assaults with significant force is a major boon to your army, much more so than a 10 man assault squad, also he serves a totally different role than a 10 man assault squad. If your enemy is torrenting AP2-3 shots at sang, they aren't doing it to your assault marines. You don't have to kill 275 points to be worth 275 points, lord knows my stormravens rarely make it past turn 3-4 and almost never kill their points back, but that isn't always their purpose. Since we aren't fighting in a vacuum that is worth mentioning. Also, unlike mephiston, Sanguinor doesn't risk exploding his own head if he gets low on wounds to reach his damage potential, he always has it as long as he's on the board. The biggest draw back of sanguinor, however, IS his 3 wounds. That said, mathhammer aside, sanguinor is perhaps the ultimate example in my personal experience of hot or cold dice. I've had him stack up amazing kill totals in a single game simply because i had a chance to do so. Keep in mind statistical averages are only a very small part of judging probability, also keep in mind you're dealing with binomial distributions, not simple probability. These situations aren't really being mapped as thoroughly as they could be to paint a complete picture. That said sanguinor has a strength mephiston cannot match, and that is a consistent 3+ invulnerable. Will you fail your invulnerable save sometimes? Yes. Can you potentially save everything? Yes. My theory on power weapons is the same as sanguinor in this situation. I want to have the opprotunity to make the saves, even if i may lose regardless. Having the opprotunity for a hot hand is a significant advantage in 40k, you never know when your luck will turn (for good or bad). I've had sanguinor kill a hive tyrant, a 10 man genestealer squad with a brood lord, 8 more genestealers without a brood lord in a single game. Should that have happened? Probably not, but it did. He also killed a tactical marine squad, marneus calgar, and lysander in 1 game, twice. He has also been killed by things shooting at him such as shotgun scouts, eldar guardians, and imperial guardsman, as well as flat out just being annihilated by lascannons via failing those 3+ saves that cost so make it cost many points for his model. The trick to running the sanguinor is don't rely on the sanguinor. Much like a stormraven, if your strategy relies on the sanguinor (or your stormraven) surviving the battle, then you're in a lot of trouble. He can be killed, in fact he dies a lot--but not if properly supported. I also don't think he has to be run in a DoA list, just a list with assault components. He is not a very effective counter charge unit when compared to something like mephiston. He is an assault force augmentation in a codex that fills a specific role that no one else in the codex does (no matter how much one may want to argue it, or it's effectiveness or lack thereof). As crazy as it sounds the OP kind of has it right, though not in the same terms. Sanguinor is a dueling-specialist/soft elite killer and force multiple in a codex action packed with force multipliers (sanguinary priests, elite chaplains, excellent psychic powers, etc.). That's how he should be run, in my opinion, not as mephiston-lite, which so many people see him as. Sorry for the length but I get the vibe that many people have not used Sanguinor extensively or as experimentally as I have, so I thought I would shed some of my insight into running him in a non-DoA environment and other experiences I've had with him. Hopefully this helps. Again this is not based on theory but actual play testing. Sanguinor is both very durable and horrible fragile, it really just depends on your and your opponent's dice. The same could be said for anything in 40k. Sounds like you ran about the same list that i tried about a year ago, and still go back to regularly lol. It's by far the most fun style of list that I've ever played. SR with assault termies, meph, sang, rhino with trimmed assault squad and 2 jump assault squads. I tried playing around with a few things just for fun, Different # of sang priests added in, LC sgt for the termies ended up as the best load out for that bugger in case he gets the buff. I even threw together an assault sgt with 2 PF's (yeah yeah...), and ran him until he got the blessing. I had to go over the rules a couple times with that player on why my Sgt was assaulting him with 6 PF attacks at a higher WS. Anyways back on track to the topic; I think you need to tailor a list to suite the Sanguinor more so than any other HQ in the BA codex, so the situations where he's the most useful are pretty limited. However one thing that Black Memories said that really strikes a nerve with me is to never discount a hot hand. That being said, If you're like me and love to have a little more than the usual gamble in your games, the Sanguinor has limitless potential with that eternal warrior and 3++ save, and will forever hold a place in my heart after taking down a Swarm Lord + Guards, and come out the other end swinging away at more helpless bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I even threw together an assault sgt with 2 PF's (yeah yeah...), and ran him until he got the blessing. I had to go over the rules a couple times with that player on why my Sgt was assaulting him with 6 PF attacks at a higher WS. Double fists or claws on sergeants is something you really don't consider otherwise. You've inspired me to try it tomorrow. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I even threw together an assault sgt with 2 PF's (yeah yeah...), and ran him until he got the blessing. I had to go over the rules a couple times with that player on why my Sgt was assaulting him with 6 PF attacks at a higher WS. Double fists or claws on sergeants is something you really don't consider otherwise. You've inspired me to try it tomorrow. ;) I've used a double fist squad with Unleash Rage to some success myself :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 just one more point on list tailoring. I have always placed a premium on weapons that are marine killers, just because so many real world enemies are t4 with 3+ save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Gonna run a list with sanguinor this weekend. (list in the list forum) Any interest in a bat-rep? Go on, I would love to hear one. It would interesting to see how you use The Sanguinor compared to me to see if its any different. Welp, the first roll of the game pretty much sums up how everything went today :cuss http://i.imgur.com/773N8.jpg?1 1750 was horde orks, complete loss (but not wiped) Highlights included 10 DC rapid firing into a slugga mob and killing 1. The sanguinor arrived alone, rolled max scatter, got displaced, rolled a 1 on his run move and then he was smeared by a deff dread. The only unit that really performed were the two frag cannon dreads who pretty much carried the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Sanguinor has DOA, you should have only rolled 1d6 for scatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 That was my first thought too. Second thought was - if you are missing rules like that, then if I'm being honest I'd not expect you to be beating orks. Sorry old bean, but thems breaks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Sanguinor has DOA, you should have only rolled 1d6 for scatter. That's not his roll, it's the first roll on turn one for the first pod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Welp, the first roll of the game pretty much sums up how everything went today ^_^ http://i.imgur.com/773N8.jpg?1 Brother Corbulo sees no problem with this picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Brother Corbulo sees no problem with this picture. In todays game I would have needed about ten corbulos ^_^ Maybe I'll take him in the mid-week game if I can fit him in a pod somewhere. Still a bit burnt out on mech lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Memories Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The list I ran at 2k, if you're interested. Feel free to copy and use the list. I will say it is a bit of an advanced list just because there's a lot of distraction/shielding processes going on. There's some really good hammer/anvil (or double hammer/anvil) tactics you can pull off with this list, and It's never really come close to losing, though again it wasn't used in a competitive tournament, but has been played fairly extensively. I believe it would do well against most opponents in a tournament setting based on prior experience. No heavy armor, which I like to use in tournaments, but it has a ton of speed and hitting power. Sang Meph Chaplain 2 Sang Priest-2 power weapons Terminator Assault Squad, 3 hammers, 2 claws 9 man ASM-1 melta gun, serg power fist, rhino, dozer blade 5 man ASM-Razorback, TLLC 5 man ASM-Razorback, TLLC Predator-lascannon sponsons Predator-lascannon sponsons Storm Raven- TLMM, TLLC, extra armor should be 1992 total. Theme is speed and hitting power like I said. Very aggressive list. Basic concept is really pretty much the same as the rest of the lists i tend to build. Overloard the enemy with targets because its unlikely he'll be able to take them all down, or damage any portion so badly by turn 2 that you're doomed, also supported by reasonable long range anti-armor. Pretty much how i build lists on a fundamental level. A lot of shooting-mech spam list builders will probably scoff at it, and that happened in play testing too until they realize they really didnt have the guns they needed to truly take everything down. The reason it covers weaknesses effectively is because of how many types of combat units there are in this list. Everything from a lawmower combination of assault squad + heroes or +terminators to pincers from the raven and the heroes, doubling up by just the heroes on a higher initiative squad that's dangerous (incubi, gray knights, other heroes). Also having 4 main close combat elements that are all fast but still a bit "off speed" from each other means that generally you set yourself up for a nice natural wave assault that tends to overwhelm most forces. Meph and Sang run behind the razors/rhinos and the SR obviously boosts up. You can pull off a lot of tactics with the list because of high mobility, good firepower, and really strong combat ability. This list is not one that fears the gray knights in my experience, which I tend to view as a fairly tough armor to build lists against as BA. Meph and sang do a good job chopping up I6 guys, and assault terminators are tough enough to plow a few units themselves with any kind of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Memories Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The Sanguinary Guard Them with their addons and The Sanguinor comes out at 530 Reclusiarch, 11 dc, 2 pf and a storm raven come out at 600 Dont get me wrong, the sangies will win that fight, but thats not really the point, all the sangies will do is slaughter my hq, which I think is a Capital G-reat exchange, I'll feed him to you and my dc and sr can concentrate on something else. Personaly, I'd prefer three vindicators as a big hq smasher (three demolishers Vs Calgar and retinue, so much fun :D ). Not sure what you're talking about here but generally speaking the death company will win that fight (despite the fact that that death company is kind of poorly put together in my opinion). It depends heavily on who gets the charge. It's very easy to charge a non-transport squad like the sanguinary guard squad with some speed of your own out of a transport, so keep in mind that that's a vulnerable squad. The real question is how is the guard a "body guard" for the sanguinor, and also why are you running sanguinary guard. I love the idea and the models but they really couldn't be more worthless on the table. There are several units in the BA codex that do the same thing, better, for cheaper, than the sanguinary guard and strangely actually surpass them because they benefit more from force multipliers available in this very "force multiplicative" codex. Also I dont really subscribe to the idea of triple vindicators. I think predators are better. Additionally I also dont see the point here, vindicators do not really fulfill the same role as SR+dc or Sanguinor and (or) the Sanguinary Guard. Vindicators are also very vulnerable from the sides, and from the front to enough lascannon shots. Also they only require a shaken or weapon destroyed result. Not a huge fan. I've also never really played against a vindicator (or multi vindicator) list that faired very well. I'm sure there's some appeal to them, maybe I just haven't had my eyes openned, but I like to use my vindicators as more of scary shields for mephiston or sanguinor or something than actual killers, I find it fulfills that role a lot more consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Second game with Sanguinor went much better. The awful, awful luck I had last game was replaced by the normal ups and downs. He supported some dreads that he also used for cover. Then he ate two marine squads, a librarian and two attack bikes. One more turn and he would have munched on some assault terminators. I really appreciate that unlike Mephiston his movement and stats are completely reliable. The blessed dual lightning claw sergeant was a beast too. That extra stat buff really helps to deal with the things assault marines struggle with, other marines. I mean 6 S6 WS5 I6 Attacks on the charge rerolling wounds.... yes please. I still think that he's overpriced, but not by much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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