Are bolters good on scouts?

[tomsev]

everything is in the title...

are bolters worrth it on scouts or are shotguns better? or ccw bp ?? any help would be gladly received

[The Emperor's Champion]

Courtesy of our resident Scout master, GreatCrusade08:

10th Scout Company Tactica

 

;)

[Kierdale]

The Emperor's Champion beat me to it ;)

Basically it depends on what you want them to do.

Hold the backfield? Snipers, Telion and a missile launcher.

Building a Melta-Torpedo? Bp&CCW, though I've seen some people put some shotguns in this unit too for a mixture.

I do have one unit with bolters myself (plus a heavy bolter and a combi-flamer on the sarge) which infiltrates, using it to harass the enemy from turn one. It's not particularly strong nor hardy, but it does it's purpose (distracting the enemy) enough times and has given other units time to move up to supporting positions.

[red_starrise]

I find them to be a passable substitute for a tac squad. Give them a heavy bolter, a sarge with a combi-plas & camo cloaks & infiltrate them into cover & they work well for denial purposes. Cheaper than a tac squad too. I've had them hold out against orks & then meet an assault & last a couple turns against a mob of 10 boyz.

[DarkGuard]

Bolter Scouts tend to find themselves in a role that can normally be occupied better by Tactical Marines, that of midfield support. If they stay still they can fire up to 24", which is a respectable midfield range, and with their infiltrate and scouts rules can easily get into a good position for that range. And if they have to move or the enemy gets too close they can double tap as well, doubling their damage output. And they're cheaper than Marines, bargain right?

 

Not really though, as in addition to the obvious losses of WS, BS and armour save, you also lose the ability to take a transport, which further protects and mobilized the squad, have limited heavy weapon options and can't take any special weapons, so you lose a lot of the versatility that Tactical Marines can bring.

 

So if we do measure them up against Tactical Marines I believe the Tactical Marines win. Scouts win in roles that Tactical Marines can't fulfil as well, like combat support with shotguns and CCWs, or long-range support with sniper rifles.

 

But that's not to say that bolter Scouts are bad. At close range they can give a lot of firepower at a cheap price while not having to resort to combat. They're still mobile to an extent, and can made decent backfield objective holders instead of snipers, in this instance relying less on damage over a ranged distance but more on having better damage potential against infantry who get close. They just simply fulfil a general role that is fulfilled better elsewhere in the army list. You can't take Scouts and expect them to perform like Tactical Marines because they aren't. Scouts are less experience and more fragile, so must be handled with more delicate care, and I feel the boltgun isn't conducive to that.

 

So you need a role, the question is, what role would you like your Scouts to fill? Then it'll be easier to pinpoint the better weapons option.

 

 

As this is a more of a tactical question than a general one I'm going to move this to Tactica Astartes where it will get more feedback.

[greatcrusade08]

thanks for the mention TEC :)

 

when i made my first scout army, i used two ten man scout squads with bolters, both were taken with HB and combi-plas.

they were the core of my army.

the reason you take scouts is becuase of the infiltrate/outflank and scout rules, these units did surprisingly well for me.

it wasnt til much later that i wrote my treatise on scouts, but ultimately they are cheap cheerful and can be very sneaky, which appeals to me.

 

to answer your question, yes scouts with bolters are ok, bolters and bolters, the only real downside is the BS3 (which confuses my inner fluff daemon, best not go there tbh)

 

IMO the best advice comes from darkguard, he assimilates alot of the information that works its way through the tactica forum anyway/

 

So you need a role, the question is, what role would you like your Scouts to fill? Then it'll be easier to pinpoint the better weapons option.

tbh it was easy for me starting out, i wanted a scout army so just took about 70 of them.

it wasnt until about a year later that i needed to refine them more and more, and this question was at the fore of every decision..

[DarkGuard]

IMO the best advice comes from darkguard, he assimilates alot of the information that works its way through the tactica forum anyway/

 

I try my best. ;)

 

To be honest a lot of your tactical treatises on Scouts have fuelled my knowledge as well as my tactics for them on tabletop. While I haven't used bolter Scouts extensively, I've had a decent amount of experience with the other types.

 

So perhaps because I haven't really used massive units I'm more accepting of Tactical squads ahead of bolter Scouts, as most of my experience have Scouts has focussed, rapier like units that do one thing well. Like shotgun Scouts as a disruption unit, the melta torpedo team and of course the backfield Scout sniper unit.

 

Bolters Scouts just seem like a cheaper Tactical squad to me (not entirely the same, but similar niche), useful in Scout armies such as your own, but in a Marine army more likely to be redundant unless you don't like snipers in which case they can make a cheap backfield scoring unit.

[greatcrusade08]

Bolters Scouts just seem like a cheaper Tactical squad to me (not entirely the same, but similar niche), useful in Scout armies such as your own, but in a Marine army more likely to be redundant unless you don't like snipers in which case they can make a cheap backfield scoring unit.

 

i agree completely, scouts are pretty adaptable, in a regular SM army you want the scouts to fill a specific niche/role, for the most part thats not on foot armed with bolters

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think there might be something to be said for a small squad with bolters being moved by a Land Speeder Storm. (note: I play Sisters, Inquisition and Grey Knights primarily, so this is more of a modified Henchmen experience talking. I've yet to get scouts for my Marines army because that army is well, really small) If you combine the Land Speeder Storms speed and versatile deployment options (deep strike or scout), you can have a cheap scoring unit zooming towards a small, out of the way objective not in your deployment zone. Keep enough pressure on your opponent to draw his fire and slink the Scouts to the objective on the fly to claim or contest things. 125 points for a deep striking, outflanking, scouting scoring unit? One that is so small on a threat radar it may well be overlooked compared to say, that drop podding Sternguard distraction unit over there? Yes please!

 

Granted if your opponent is kicking your tail, well, that Scout unit may well be swatted pretty quickly. But it's mobile, relatively sturdy compared to non-Marine units, can get a really nice save in cover via camo cloaks (though that ups the price) and is a really cheap scoring unit to help pad your numbers. Might not always work, but if you place your objectives right and work your opponent via mental and strategic manipulation, it seems like it's doable.

[Bannus]

I think there might be something to be said for a small squad with bolters being moved by a Land Speeder Storm.

Actually, you probably want to use shotguns on Scouts riding in a Storm. They can do a "drive-by" (or should I say "fly-by"?) at targets of opportunity on the way to their objective and can shoot before assaulting when they dismount.

[Atlantic]

I think it is shotguns all the way.

 

Scout Marines aren't really that terrible in close combat when compared to tactical marines.

 

You can still take two shots with the shotguns and still charge, whereas with the bolters you are either shooting or not.

 

With the shotguns, you can infiltrate 12 away, move up 6, double tap, and then charge.

 

Of course if you are going to do that, you are probably better off with bp and ccw for the extra attack.

[greatcrusade08]

With the shotguns, you can infiltrate 12 away, move up 6, double tap, and then charge.

 

Of course if you are going to do that, you are probably better off with bp and ccw for the extra attack.

 

i agree on shotguns over bolters when used aggressively/at short range.

however unless your running shrike for added fleet, its mathematically impossible to first turn charge with scouts.

when infiltrating you do so over 12" away.. 12.01" if you want to be technical.. its impossible to move more than 12 with move and assault, therefore no first turn charges.

 

when entertaining the idea of using scouts to take objectives theres certain factors to take into account.

firstly are they home side objectives, in which case snipers/bolters with claoks all the way.

for taking enemy objectives, with the aid of outlfank and/or a land speeder storm then we have to assume in some games those objectivea re going to be held by the enemy.

for the most part its expendable troops, eldarguardians, henchman, scouts, tac marines etc.

5 ccw scouts with a combi-flamer should be more than a match for these chumps..

 

bolters dont really help IMO, unless your looking at sidelined objective where they can tumble from a speeder and go to ground.. sadly its far more likely youll have to prise the objectives from the enemy.. in which case ccw all the way.

of course if your opponents are reguarly of higher initiative shotguns are your newest bestest friends

[Validar]

@GC8: Please correct me (because you know this better than me), but don't scouts get a scout move after they infiltrate? If so, wouldn't that mean you've got 6" scout move, 6" move and 6" charge allowing for first turn charges provided you can hide from enemy sight?

What am I missing?

[greatcrusade08]

@GC8: Please correct me (because you know this better than me), but don't scouts get a scout move after they infiltrate? If so, wouldn't that mean you've got 6" scout move, 6" move and 6" charge allowing for first turn charges provided you can hide from enemy sight?

What am I missing?

 

you cant scout within 12" of the enemy (in BRB under scout moves), even with infiltrate scout, move and assault you cant get alpha strikes without fleet.

its fine if your HQ is shrike though

 

alternatively turn to scout bikers and land speeder storms, both capable of alpha strikes

[Ming]

I've dabbled in scout squad use...I typically just use a small squad with a ML and 4 sniper rifles...the ML seems to be the best part of the unit, especially with all the fearless tough target units out there that would ignore pinning. These guys just remain immobile and provide supporting fire in most games. I did have a recent one in a tournament where my 5 man scout squad on turn 3 decided it was better to counter-assault an ongoing ork-vs-tac squad combat, and the addition of a few scouts turned that scrum in my favor and kept me an objective. I typically would deploy these guys 12-14.999 inches from an objective, so they would grab it on the last turn. Until then they just provide support. Sometimes with tellion (in just the bigger games).

 

Bolter scouts would not be as useful (as stated above). Lots of dakka, but then cannot charge.

 

The best mobile combination would seem to be a unit with a storm for transport and kitted out for the assault, to grab or take that back field objective or that pesky back field enemy unit. Bolters, chanswords, and combiflamer or combimelta would be suitable, maybe a power weapon too.

[DarkGuard]

I've dabbled in scout squad use...I typically just use a small squad with a ML and 4 sniper rifles...the ML seems to be the best part of the unit, especially with all the fearless tough target units out there that would ignore pinning. These guys just remain immobile and provide supporting fire in most games. I did have a recent one in a tournament where my 5 man scout squad on turn 3 decided it was better to counter-assault an ongoing ork-vs-tac squad combat, and the addition of a few scouts turned that scrum in my favor and kept me an objective. I typically would deploy these guys 12-14.999 inches from an objective, so they would grab it on the last turn. Until then they just provide support. Sometimes with tellion (in just the bigger games).

 

Bolter scouts would not be as useful (as stated above). Lots of dakka, but then cannot charge.

 

The best mobile combination would seem to be a unit with a storm for transport and kitted out for the assault, to grab or take that back field objective or that pesky back field enemy unit. Bolters, chanswords, and combiflamer or combimelta would be suitable, maybe a power weapon too.

 

Not sure how bolter Scouts would be less useful than sniper Scouts in the above situation, both will have the same amount of fire power and attacks when charging.