Possessed Space Marines

[Lonewolf86]

This is a fluff question about possessed space marines. When they are possessed does their form change immediately and is it permanent? I have just read Anthony Reynold's enjoyable Word Bearer's omnibus and it seems one the characters Burias looks outwardly normal (for a chaos space space marine) and can choose when he takes on his possessed daemonic form. Until reading these books I had thought that they would permanently retain their possessed appearance. Do you think it depends on the power of daemon compared to the host as to how much control the host retains over its appearance?

 

Finally what do you see happening to the marine's armour during possession? Does it warp and change before returning to its original appearance when the daemon recedes or does it have to be removed/destroyed as the marine's body sprouts tusks/horns/claws etc?

 

Thoughts welcome and most appreciated.

[Kierdale]

The First Heretic is my only Wh40k literary experience with possessed marines and if I remember correctly in there the possession 'comes and goes', with the demonic persona coming to the fore during combat (and armour mutating appropriately), with things returning to normal afterwards. However, I don't remember how things are after the 'climactic events' of that story (to avoid spoilers).

 

One thing I'd like to see more of is possessed marines with mutations appropriate to their deity, rather than the mixed-bag in the current kit.

[Xin Ceithan]

I do not recall there being a hard and fast rule on this. I`d say it depends on the nature and stage of the possession. Burias from the Dark Apostle series only exhibits the cjanges during transformation. If you`re looking for a few descriptions on Possession and the changes it makes on the Astartes and the armour I`d suggest reading"First Heretic" as the main character undergoes possesion / binding in it. these guys are also featured in "Know no fear" and it appears they can subdue -at least- temporarily - the changes on their form and armour since this takes places pot-Istvaan and the events from first heretic.

After ten thousand years my guess would be a strong willed Astartes might be able to change between forms and a somehat -normal- appereance/armor while others where the daemon is more in control remain more changed and less able to control/subdue it. Spawndom is always an option down the way^^

[Kol Saresk]

*snip

 

Do you think it depends on the power of daemon compared to the host as to how much control the host retains over its appearance?

I would say that is exactly what happens. There is a book called Daemonworld by Ben Counter. In it, there is a woman possessed by a daemonette. It's said that the woman and the daemonette reached a sort of partnership and share the body equally. Then there is Mammon from the Siege of Vraks campaign. He was possessed by a Great Unclean One, but became a Daemon Prince. No one is entirely too sure about what happened to the daemon.

 

Finally what do you see happening to the marine's armour during possession? Does it warp and change before returning to its original appearance when the daemon recedes or does it have to be removed/destroyed as the marine's body sprouts tusks/horns/claws etc?

I would say the armor gets repaired because when Argel Tal(in First Heretic by Aaron Dembski-Bowden) and Burias change form, we don't really hear about the state of the Power Armor, but they still have it afterwards and in the case of Argel Tal, the damage he inflicted on himself when he first transformed should have destroyed it. That and his transformation describes his boots transforming with his feet to create hooves. But all of this is still limited by how much power the daemon has. In other words, there can be a thing as too much damage for a possessed in the books.

[Amalricus]

In both "first heretic" and the WB omnibus the Hosts are able to control their rage, and thuss their looks, at least out of battle. Mutation doesn't seem to last after battle, and doesn't seem to apply a generic pattern either concerning the claws / fangs / other attributes which would change to match the immediate threat. After the fight both the marine and his armor regain their original form. At least that seems to be the case with Burias - Drak'shal ( or something like that) and Argel Tal. Those two are the best known examples, and seem to be strong enough to maintain control over the daemon. It wouldn't be impossible to imagine a squad composed by possessed who would have lost it to become deamon-marines ( quite like mini Deamon princes) though.

 

It's quite like the space wolves Mark of the Wulfen for those familiar with it, except it's induced by a deamon, and not the canis helix, and the wulfen's armour and weaponry is unaffected

[Lonewolf86]

Thanks for the replies people. What you've written seems to fit with what I think. I imagine a strong willed marine can bring out or suppress the changes at will. If the daemon is stronger it is able to maintain control for more of the time with the marine existing in a changed form or someway between changed and normal. Armour I would also see as changing and melding with the new limbs; perhaps the colour and texture of the limbs would relate in someway to the colour of the armour. I would also think the relationship between host and daemon is not fixed. I imagine the marine must constantly resist the temptation for more power at the expense of allowing the daemon more control or more of a share of his body and mind.

 

I think I may have to make a start on the HH series. ADB's night lord series was most absorbing and I'd like to see his take on astartes that fully embrace Chaos. I have a Kindle and thought I might hold out till the series is nearly done before getting the whole lot in the inevitable mega e-bundle! Now I'm not so sure.

[Kol Saresk]

Also, I don't know how far you are into the WB series so I'll put this in spoiler tags since it is in the second book.

 

 

The Tech-Magos, Darioq is possessed by a daemon called Gren'dal. From then on, he is always possessed. It is unsure which one is in control though because he still retains much of his mannerisms from before the possession but it is obvious in his physiology and the daemon more-or-less keeps giving him new ways to kill.

 

 

The Exalted would be the perfect example of a possessed Marine who lost control. We get to see his/its/both POV in Blood Reaver. Burias also mentions an ongoing struggle in Torment.

[Lonewolf86]

Also, I don't know how far you are into the WB series so I'll put this in spoiler tags since it is in the second book.

 

 

The Tech-Magos, Darioq is possessed by a daemon called Gren'dal. From then on, he is always possessed. It is unsure which one is in control though because he still retains much of his mannerisms from before the possession but it is obvious in his physiology and the daemon more-or-less keeps giving him new ways to kill.

 

 

The Exalted would be the perfect example of a possessed Marine who lost control. We get to see his/its/both POV in Blood Reaver. Burias also mentions an ongoing struggle in Torment.

 

Darioq is a good example I had not thought of. He is possessed I believe to ensure full cooperation and so he can't lie to Marduk. Perhaps there is some choice in the 'type' of daemon that is bound to you. Whilst I'm sure there is plenty of room for error you would attempt to choose a daemon that you can probably temper and control that will still enhance your abilities. Marduk probably chose a daemon that was powerful enough to meld the two together taking elements of both of them.

 

On a side note the Mark of the Wulfen as it is potrayed really grates with me. I know 40k is hardly ultra-realistic but I can't see how Space Wolves like Bran Redmaw for example can in a matter of seconds or minutes transform into something larger than they were before. With possessed marines you can explain that in terms of warp energy enfusing them but Wulfen have no such explanations. I'd prefer that the transformation is something that happens over weeks. This would be adequate time for some growing, the sprouting of inches of hair and claws!

[Kol Saresk]

Perhaps when one transforms into a Wulfen, the same process that promoted growth to turn the youth into a Space Marine once again becomes active again and promotes more growth into a Wulfen?

[Brother Ambroz]

I think you all are missing something from First Heretic and if you already said it, forgive me I missed it. Anyway I'm putting it in spoilers, it's from the end of TFH.

 

 

Argel Tal and the Gal Vorbak had to hide their posession from the Custodes so I'd definitely say they can turn it off and on.

 

 

A little from Aurelian.

 

 

Lorgar sees him fight Sanguinus as a daemon prince.

 

 

So I'd say it's more something that be turned off and on, at least visually. The host seems to almost always have control of the body, unless it's a very powerful daemon (greater daemon or a prince). Otherwise how would he become a daemon prince?

[Kol Saresk]

It doesn't say he is a daemon prince though. It says that he possesses qualities of both a daemon and a human where his soul is concerned, but the same thing is said about him in First Heretic. Even at the battle of Istvaan, he was described as being huge if I recall correctly. So if I had to guess, I would say the possession and the exact nature of the relationship between daemon and host would depend on the will power of the host(not actual physical strength) and the daemon itself. Is it simply some mindless entity that is formed of psychic scraps, a fury, a lesser daemon, greater daemon or daemon prince? Could it even be one of the many, nameless minor warp entities that are greater than the Daemon Princes but not quite Chaos Gods?

[Brother Ambroz]

He was big in TFH but not prince size. This guy was going toe to toe with Sangy. I don't think Lorgar used the words daemon prince at the time because he didn't know what it was yet, after all remember this right when they're still learning about chaos.

 

I think Fulgrim is possessed by one of those that aren't quite gods but more powerful than princes and possibly greater daemons.

[Lonewolf86]

Perhaps when one transforms into a Wulfen, the same process that promoted growth to turn the youth into a Space Marine once again becomes active again and promotes more growth into a Wulfen?

 

That's how I would see it with the change being at least days. I don't like the idea that this transformation can happen in the middle of battle, within a matter of minutes turning a 7 or 8 foot astartes into a 12 foot monster.

[Lonewolf86]

I think you all are missing something from First Heretic and if you already said it, forgive me I missed it. Anyway I'm putting it in spoilers, it's from the end of TFH.

 

 

Argel Tal and the Gal Vorbak had to hide their posession from the Custodes so I'd definitely say they can turn it off and on.

 

 

A little from Aurelian.

 

I've not read the book yet but I believe these two are quite powerful mentally and strong willed? This would support the idea that those who are able to assert their dominance over the daemon can choose to only unleash their transformed form when they need to. Those who are more of an equal match to the daemon may often share the host and might well have horns/talons/tails much of the time. Those who are mentally overpowered at any time are likely to descend into mad chaos spawn before inevitably being destroyed. About right?

[Trevak Dal]

I really like how ADB portrayed them in First Heretic, as an almost symbiotic.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah that could be true. But Kor Phaeron was able to go toe-to-toe with Roboute Gulliman. Some may even say he won until he stopped to convert. I think it would suffice to say that when Chaos is involved, anything can happen. Endless possibilities and all that.

[Kraull the Rampager]

Agreed with Kol here. Seems like anything could happen. Depending on the will of the Space Marine, he could dominate the Daemon. Or the daemon could dominate the marine.

 

PS: Kor Phaeron used Sorcery. Roboute didn't use his natural primarch psychic powers to defend himself... Sorcery is a bit OP.

Also, Darioq is an Obliterator...Moving slowly but shooting lasers and higher grade technology weapons? Serving as the Chapter techmarine? Yah. A different form of obliterator.

[Dammeron]

There's no particular "set in stone" description of precisely how Possessed function or manifest; rather, there are various different representations based upon individual's perceptions (or preconceptions) thereof. Originally, "Possessed" Chaos Space Marines (as they manifested in the RoC books) were ridiculously powerful individuals who literally had a daemon, greater daemon or daemon prince inhabiting their flesh, either through conscious choice, coercion or a combination of the two. The Daemons not only lent their host incredible power, depending on their nature and status, but they could physically emerge from the shell -often destroying it in the process- and fight on in its place (which is what likely led to the current Greater Daemon summoning rules).

 

Background wise, there is no set in stone way in which "Possessed" function; it all depends on the nature and circumstances of the possession. Some are possessed involuntarily and are at constant odds with the daemon inhabiting their flesh, constantly fighting for control, whereas others enter into conscious pacts with the possessing entity and regard the condition as joyous and perhaps even holy (REF: Word Bearers). As to the eventual fate of both shell and daemon, that seems to vary greatly too, again, depending on the circumstances of possession. Some are utterly destroyed by the process of possession, their minds, their bodies or both failing as the daemon vacates, others are eventually totally taken over by the possessing daemon (such as Primarch Fulgrim), their bodies warped and twisted into a permanent shell for its vile inspirations. Others, such as members of the Black Legion, have found a means of temporary possession which lends their warriors all of the power and potential of a "Possessed" without seriously crippling or destroying the warrior in question once the inhabiting daemon is ejected.

 

It's a profound mistake to assume that there is only one way in which "possessed" manifest or function, or a gospel bit of background in this regard; it is left deliberately open and vague so that players may put their own "spin" on the phenomena. Personally, I don't think that "Possessed" should be a separate unit at all, but rather an upgrade that any "mortal" unit in the CSM army list may purchase for a specific points cost which then allows either for a roll on a D6 table (with consequences of varying effect that become more risky the more rolls you purchase) or for the selection of specific "Possessed" abilities along with increasing levels of risk for the unit.

[Frater Uriah]

It's a profound mistake to assume that there is only one way in which "possessed" manifest or function, or a gospel bit of background in this regard; it is left deliberately open and vague so that players may put their own "spin" on the phenomena. Personally, I don't think that "Possessed" should be a separate unit at all, but rather an upgrade that any "mortal" unit in the CSM army list may purchase for a specific points cost which then allows either for a roll on a D6 table (with consequences of varying effect that become more risky the more rolls you purchase) or for the selection of specific "Possessed" abilities along with increasing levels of risk for the unit.

You know, I don't think I ever disagree with you. This is what I would love to see in the new 'dex, with greater power available at with greater risk entailed, at the player's discretion. As it should be.

 

So, you buy "Possessed" options for your Aspiring Champion or entire unit, or your HQs. You can buy the random, D6 generated power for low-risk, individual powers for more risk (some form of Rage or something like that), or more than one individual power for greatest risk (like running the risk of taking a wound on a roll of 1 before combat starts, or something). Many different possibilities, rather than one randomly-powered unit of sadly-underwhelming-for-their-cost Possessed.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I remember there is a Possessed Astartes the Iron Warriors novel Dead Sky, Black Sun (I know it's a Ultramarines novel, but the only Ultramarines in it play a secondary role). He has claws that slide out for combat, and as he draws more energy he becomes more daemonic, has rapid regeneration and is generally a real BAMF.

[Kol Saresk]

Until he gets killed by a few mutants and a meltablast to the face courtesy of Grendel. His name was Onyx.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, Chaos frequently "blesses" their subjects by fusing their armour to their flesh, and that's what happens to Argel Tal and the Gal Vorbak whenever the change comes over them. Their armour becomes part of their flesh, and thus mutates alongside it.

 

With the wider question though, I find it impossible to believe that there's a hard-and-fast rule for how possession "works" in 40k, other than "they're possessed by something". Some times the changes are permanent, some times, as with the Gal Vorbak, they're temporary. Some times the daemon controls the host, like the Exalted, or it could be a symbiosis, or even a parasitic relationship. There's even an example of a host "consuming" the daemons that had possessed them, eventually becoming blessed with Princehood by Slaanesh.

 

It'd all depend on the willpower of the host, the "strength" of the daemon, whether the host is willing or not, the exact ritual being performed, the psychic strength of the host, how favoured the host and daemon are, and countless other variables.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Wasn't there a possessed "normal" human/psyker in Nemesis as well? That didn't seem to follow many of the "rules", which I think backs up the theory that each possession is unique or works by its own set of rules.

[Kol Saresk]

Are you talking about Spear? He wasn't a psyker. He was a Pariah. Which makes the fact he had daemonskin that helped him change shape and stuff really really weird. To say the least.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, the writer didn't seem to understand exactly what a Pariah was at times, given how he described them as psykers.