Emperors Gift Review

[Simo429]

Thought people might like to read my Emperors Gift review which can be found here

[Oiad]

Hmmm, funny. I've always been interested in the lore where the Grey Knights tackle non-daemonic foes and upon reading ADB's comments on Heresy about the Grey Knights several months ago gave me the impression he was very much in the 'Grey Knights specialise in daemon-slaying but will smite anything that gets in there way' camp rather than the 'they're only good at killing daemons' camp. If this review is true then it's a sad day.

 

EDIT - Grammar.

[Simo429]

I'm not saying that they are only good at killing daemons at the end of the day they are Astartes.

 

However I don't think that they are that different to other Astartes when it comes to fighting the other forces of the galaxy.

[Oiad]

Apart from all the non-standard wargear and psychic powers, which is kinda a big advantage and has shown to be such in several pieces of the lore.

[Simo429]

Apart from all the non-standard wargear and psychic powers, which is kinda a big advantage and has shown to be such in several pieces of the lore.

Lots of chapters have non standard gear and different tactics, its what sets them all apart.

[Oiad]

To the effects of specialised force weapons as a standard to all troops, etc? The differences you're talking about are relatively minor by comparison.

[Simo429]

To the effects of specialised force weapons as a standard to all troops, etc? The differences you're talking about are relatively minor by comparison.

I don't agree,

 

reliance of the pack mentality and the feral nature of Space Wolves

The use of fast attack forces of the blood angels

The over bearence of melta and flamer of the Salamanders

The siege breaking traits of the Imperial fists

I could of course go on.

all of these things set other Astartes apart from Grey Knights at dealing with certain situations

 

 

The Grey Knights are a excellent fighting force and of course are specialised at dealing with other forces, I don't however think that if you put a company of Grey Knights amongst a tyranid horde they would automatically do better than the Ultramarines have or if you put them against Dark Eldar they would do better than Salamanders.

 

This is what I think ADB gets perfect, he shows that the Grey Knights are a scalpel to be delivered. They aren't like Mcneill made them to be in The Killing Ground unbeatable warriors, I think the Grey Knights Grand Master says the only way an Ultramarines captain should be able to beat him is with the powers of the warp. Its that characterisation that I don't agree with and that I think ADB delivers the answer perfectly.

[*Furyou Miko]

Grey Knights would own Tyranids completely. NFW are practically designed to kill Synapse Creatures, and you can't do much better than a storm bolter for flushing gaunts.

[Oiad]

I don't agree...

 

...

Furthermore, The Killing Ground isn't the only story guilty of portraying the Grey Knights as a force that will slap about other chapters if push comes to shove. There were also a few brutal examples in the Chapter Approved articles and Imperalis Armageddon about such one-sided affairs when the two collide. I can't remember reading it being the other way around that often, if at all. Along with the texts in both codices, you can't blame those of us that believe that they are better for thinking so.

 

As for the comparisons, with exception to the Space Wolves example, these lists of characteristics are more equivocal to preferential mindset and tactics of a chapter rather than each marine's individual capability. That would be more comparable with the Grey Knights specialisation in daemon slaying, or teleportation than it is their physical characteristics or default equipment of each marine itself. Not to be too derisive but the end of the day, the basic tactical marine equivalent from most of those chapters is equipped with a boltgun and a combat knife (etc.) and maybe bears an additional, slight mutation. It's not something I see as fair compared to a fully-fledged psyker-marine that wields a force weapon and a storm-bolter. I use to have ADB down as someone who thought so too, after he once championed them as being the best. Nonetheless it will be interesting to read about his newer viewpoint on them when we all get a copy of the book.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

These comparisons can get a bit tiresome. The whole "a company of Grey Knights is better thana company of Salamanders against enemy X"

 

Simply because it doesn't happen that way.

 

There are (as of the new codex) 8 Brotherhoods of Grey Knights. A Brotherhood is roughly the size of an astartes company, maybe a bit bigger as they seem closer to Space Wolf great companies than codex ones.

 

These guys are highly specialised and spread out across the entire Imperium hunting Daemonic threats and ONLY Daemonic threats. They will ignore calls to help in other warzones that do not involve a Daemonic threat and that's their remit.

 

The numbers of active Pyskers in ANY Astartes chapter is limited to a handful, perhaps no more than a dozen in some cases. EVERY single Grey Knight is not only a psyker but a combat trained psyker. There is nothing else in the Imperium like the Grey Knights, but they exist for on purpose and one purpose alone.

 

Sure, the Grey Knights would tear into anything thet gets in their way, but their objective would be solely to get through whatever nuisance is blocking them from achieving their anti-daemon objective. They are too rare, oo specialised to be wasted fighting anything else.

[Oiad]

No worries Brother Captain Kezef. No one is questioning the GK's main operational purpose and we all know that at the end of the day, an argument about rhetorical situations of X vs Y is a bit pointless. In fact it's something I've been trying to avoid by sticking to mentioning info has been previously written. It's just that if we've been given a chance to read some interesting news and it's a statement one of us does or doesn't necessarily agree with I would hope the thread it was posted in would give us a chance to discuss it. I'm sure that despite our disagreements here, Simo429 would welcome your own comments about the article...

 

:D

[Zeratil]

I think it's a mistake to equate Grey Knights in the rules with Grey Knights in the books, purely because the way the rules work on the tabletop, the truth is the game Grey Knights are not much better against daemons than other marines, because by the rules generally daemons ignore both the grey knights superior CC weapons (inv saves) and part of the psychic arsenal (eternal warrior). Neither of these counter-measures are avliable to nids or other marines, meaning that grey knights tend to go through them like a knife through butter. Because of this level of 'abstraction' in the rules, the Grey Knights are probably no better against most daemons than grey hunters, of course when a BL story is written about them you would expect the Grey Knight to be far superior both because of things not represented in the rules (immunity to corruption, variety of psychic powers etc etc.) and because in the background that's what Grey Knights do, they fight daemons, they're damn good at it. Equally if a book had them fighting nids or space marines I suspect it would be depicted as a more equal fight than it might be on tabletop. For example if you put an ultramarines tyrannic war veteran and a grey knight up against a Tyranid gribbly on the tabletop the Grey Knight has a much better chance of killing the nid, he has a better gun, a sword that ignores armour saves and a good chance of activating his force weapon and IDing the nid. In the fluff the Ultramarine would have the upper hand, he's better trained to fight this enemy, knows how they move and react in the same way a grey knight knows how daemons move and fight. At the end of the day this sort of stuff is the price you pay to (try) and balance a game, a constraint the background doesn't have to reflect.

 

Secondly how good Grey Knights are has changed in the GW rules overtime, their stats have gone down and their equipment has changed a great deal between 3rd and 5th, as ADB says his foreword reflects 5th edition knights, not 3rd editions like the old chapter approved stuff and McNeils book. Futhermore no good author would let something stats get in the way of telling a good story. Ultimately there's so many versions of how good Grey Knights are at killing various things it has to come down to personnal opinion, nuthin wrong with that so long as you don't insist everyone else is plain wrong and should subscribe to your view.

 

 

TLDR; Stuff don't always work the same way in the rules as it does in the background, nor should it.

 

----------------

 

In keeping with the topic at hand I've just finished reading the book and it is indeed really good, and of a much better standard than some of the more recent stuff written about the Grey Knights. I loved the first half in particular, it gives a really good look at what it's like to be a Grey Knight and how they differ from a 'normal' Adeptus Astartes. It also has a couple of really cool connections to other stuff BL have done in the past. Well worth the read and Simos review is right on the money.

[Gree]

Well I've already spotted a glaring error.

 

He sighed, shaking his head. ‘Some stories have no villain, Hyperion. Merely a mix of souls, each seeking to find where the answers lie. Help me, damn you. Stop staring at me with your eyes full of judgement and help me. How can we end this? Shackling Grimnar to my will would damn him in the eyes of his Chapter. They’d declare war on the Adeptus Terra, and how many Chapters would join them? Even one would be too many. I will not preside over another Badab War, a reliving of the Reign of Blood, or a second Nova Terra Interregnum.’

 

This story takes place around the time of the First War for Armageddon. In other words it occurs five centuries before the Badab War.

[A D-B]

Well I've already spotted a glaring error.

 

He sighed, shaking his head. ‘Some stories have no villain, Hyperion. Merely a mix of souls, each seeking to find where the answers lie. Help me, damn you. Stop staring at me with your eyes full of judgement and help me. How can we end this? Shackling Grimnar to my will would damn him in the eyes of his Chapter. They’d declare war on the Adeptus Terra, and how many Chapters would join them? Even one would be too many. I will not preside over another Badab War, a reliving of the Reign of Blood, or a second Nova Terra Interregnum.’

 

This story takes place around the time of the First War for Armageddon. In other words it occurs five centuries before the Badab War.

 

True! And already edited out of the second printing once I spotted it.

 

The "error" in the dedication remains, though. That shouldn't change.

[Gree]

Well it was quite the interesting novel. I'll put some more detailed thought up o fit later.

 

The "error" in the dedication remains, though. That shouldn't change.

 

Huh? I don't quite understand sir.

[A D-B]

Well it was quite the interesting novel. I'll put some more detailed thought up o fit later.

 

The "error" in the dedication remains, though. That shouldn't change.

 

Huh? I don't quite understand sir.

 

Buh-BAM: http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/20...dear-alexander/

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I didn't care for the book, but I have a strong dislike of most of the BL portrayals of the Space Wolves, so that's no surprise. Maybe it's just my personal bias, but every BL book I've read featuring them has them acting like either utter :cusss, complete Mary Sues, or both.

[Zeratil]

Personally, I didn't care for the book, but I have a strong dislike of most of the BL portrayals of the Space Wolves, so that's no surprise. Maybe it's just my personal bias, but every BL book I've read featuring them has them acting like either utter :cusss, complete Mary Sues, or both.

 

Space Wolves are one of the only groups in 40k that is heroic in the traditional sense of the word. Ruthless, yes, but honourable and dedicated to helping the people of the Imperium, the problem comes when nothing bad is ever shown happening from this approach. I'm fine with their attitude, it's fairly unique in 40k, but there has to be a cost to it, and a high one, otherwise why doesn't anyone else believe that on balance it would be okay to let the soldiers/populace go free? I don't think the Space Wolves are complete :cusss or Mary Sues, but they have an attitude that jars with most imperial institutions, the problem only comes when they, and they alone, never suffer for their hubris*.

 

Oh, and congratulations on becoming a father Mr. Dembski-Bowden.

 

Edit: And can we have another GK book please?

 

 

*As in the people they put their trust in never fall to heresy 'on screen', not that they don't have the occasional conflict with the inquisition.

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I didn't care for the book, but I have a strong dislike of most of the BL portrayals of the Space Wolves, so that's no surprise. Maybe it's just my personal bias, but every BL book I've read featuring them has them acting like either utter :cusss, complete Mary Sues, or both.

 

Space Wolves are one of the only groups in 40k that is heroic in the traditional sense of the word. Ruthless, yes, but honourable and dedicated to helping the people of the Imperium, the problem comes when nothing bad is ever shown happening from this approach. I'm fine with their attitude, it's fairly unique in 40k, but there has to be a cost to it, and a high one, otherwise why doesn't anyone else believe that on balance it would be okay to let the soldiers/populace go free? I don't think the Space Wolves are complete :cusss or Mary Sues, but they have an attitude that jars with most imperial institutions, the problem only comes when they, and they alone, never suffer for their hubris.

Exactly. It probably doesn't help that that in some of the books the Wolves can't seem to go five minutes without talking about how much better they are than everyone else. If that was being portrayed as egotistical bragging it would be fine; self-aggrandizement certainly fits with the whole warrior culture of the Wolves. Problem is, sometimes the narrative ends up buying into the idea that yes, the Wolves are that awesomely perfect.

 

Bears repeating that I like the Space Wolves in concept. Ruthless and savage, but ultimately noble Space Marines is a great idea, and adding on the viking werewolf layers only adds to their awesomeness level. The problem is that the execution in a lot of the BL works tends to be lacking, in my opinion.

 

Honestly though, the Wolves were the only part that really bugged me. The rest of it is a solid book. I'm just a bit of a single-issue wonk when it comes to how the Wolves get handled.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Grey Knights, in all honesty, should never of been turned into a GW army. I say this as an avid GK player aswell.

 

They are awesome in the fluff, an extremely small, ultra elite force of dedicated and specialised astartes who have one job and do that job well. There is so much that can be done with them in fiction as antagonists, protagonists or as extras.

 

The concept in the 40k game should of remained as a small squad, an elites option but never as a full army.

 

You can NOT possibly match what the Grey Knights are supposed to be in the fluff with the game without making them so obscenely broken that the game isn't worth playing anymore. So to make them a balanced force in 40k you have to have this huge discrepency between what they are in the fluff and what they are on the tabletop.

[Gree]

 

I guess before I launch into a deeper review I would like to expand more on Grand Master Joros. If I interpret the novel correct, Jorus is described (By his own subordinate) to be a rather prideful and ambitious man, who at least partially bases his decision to take down the Wolves so he can add it to his honor role.

 

Perhaps this is just my view of the Grey Knights, but I always imagined pride and ambition to be rather undesirable traits in the ultimate anti-daemon fighter. They are the gateway drugs to Chaos. I always imagined the Grey Knights as the ultimate warrior monks. Space Marines are meant to be unsullied by self-aggrandizement and doubt, but I always imagined Grey Knights to really be that flawless and pure.

 

I always imagined things like pride and personal ambition to be one of the least wanted traits in recruiting Grey Knights and one of the first things scrubbed clean in the indoctrination process. And to see a Grand Master of all people described as ambitious and with the Grand Master even indirectly admitting to that, seems very odd to me.

 

[Valerian]

Grey Knights, in all honesty, should never of have been turned into a GW army. I say this as an avid GK player aswell.

 

They are awesome in the fluff, an extremely small, ultra elite force of dedicated and specialised astartes who have one job and do that job well. There is so much that can be done with them in fiction as antagonists, protagonists or as extras.

 

The concept in the 40k game should of have remained as a small squad, an elites option but never as a full army.

 

I'm wondering if maybe you aren't aware that the Grey Knights had one of the first full army lists in the entire game.

 

 

V

[*Furyou Miko]

Citation please, Valerian.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Citation please, Valerian.

First appeared in Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness (1988). Then in White Dwarf during Rogue Trader days. You can find the army list republished in the Warhammer 40,000 Compilation which came out in 1991.

[Oiad]

Yeesh, I have to take back what I said earlier about a Grey Knight's ability. No more sticking to that stance. Reading Gree's comments, a Grand Master full of pride does seem very uncharacteristic from the outset and and doesn't really sit well with me. Even if it's only a possibility. It seems like ADB is really going out his way to break the old myths. Certainly had me fooled into thinking we'd be reading about them in a positive light in this book...