Dealing with Draigowing

[bjoluemblem]

If this has already been posted somewhere, I couldn't find it, thus the question-how to deal with Draigowing using codex space marines?

 

In the most recent tournament I was in, draigowing won it all, butchering everybody. I want to be able to stop the wing without compromising an all-comers type of list. Is there a way to do that?

The list the guy brought at 1750 had 5 KP and was as follows:

 

Draigo

10 Paladins with 3 hammers, 4 halberds, and 3 power weapons, with four psycannons spread around.

Two dreadknights with incinerator cannons, the large blast thing, and jump packs

one squad of 5 terminators, deepstriking.

 

What I had was a more or less mech list with 12 KP. What it contained wasn't good enough, as draigowing hammered it into the ground

 

The deployment was table quarters, KP. I castled up with dreads and rhinos and got my vehicles hammered by the dreadknights until I could kill them, and after I did, draigowing was in my face. Unfortunately, the guy neglected to tell me some of his rules for the GK codex, so I was tactically unprepared for some things (he borrowed the army from a friend for the tournament). Either way, I should have been able to do a lot more to stop him, as my dice were good and I played better than he did. I had a few marines left floating around, as well as the HQs and a couple HG, and game ended on turn 5. He had draigo and 5 terminators left.

 

Sum question is this-is there truly a way to deal with draigowing using C:SM? I'm at a loss besides taking metric loads of terminators, vindicators, melta, plasma, and lascannons. Which would make an all-comers list, in my opinion, less sound as it would be too expensive. Killing ork boyz with AP 2 seems a bit overkill (unless there's a painboy :yes: ).

[greatcrusade08]

vindicators work against just about everyone.

tbh beating draigo plus 10 pallies needs more than single shot AP1/2 S8+ weapons, as draigo will take most of those on his shield.

a vindicator gets around that with potentially many hits, failing that lascannon preds, melta sternguard or something similar would do the job.

 

plasma cannons are a good solid fall back

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No matter which AP-defeating weapono you choose to take, the key is a Librarian with Null Zone. Even Draigo's stormshield becomes unreliable when he has to reroll every successful save.

[breng77]

How you beat it really depends on your list. If you are heavy mech, deal with the Non-paladin units, and then use every tank you have to tank shock the death star until it breaks. If you can do this and either the game ends or you can escort him off the table, you win via tabling your opponent.

 

If not heavy mech, you really need concentrated S8+ ap 2 or better firepower to kill the deathstar.

[DarkGuard]

I'll echo what many others have said already. What you want is S8+ weapons, preferably with AP1 or 2, backed up by a Null Zone Libby. This allows you to insta-kill them, ignoring their armour while making them re-roll their invulnerable saves. While Draigo has a 3++ the others have a 5++ outside of combat so if you catch them out of cover with a direct demolisher cannon blast you'll cause a lot of damage. Also remember that as Null Zone doesn't target it doesn't suffer the effect so of Aegis, very important to remember.

 

Failing all that plasma can plink away at them, although it's better for if you're destroyed most of the squad, while missile launchers can insta-kill but need to get past their armour, still not a bad choice if there's nothing else for them to shoot at.

 

The last resort of course is to ignore them. They're slow, have a max 24" range, and if you can outmanoeuvre them you can focus on killing the rest of your opponent's army and sit on objectives etc. Remember that objectives are 2/3rds of missions, so don't get sucked into always trying to kill them when your efforts would be better served avoiding them or feeding them small units while you populate objectives with your units.

[Stormshadow]

The biggest flaws in a Draigowing army, as well as in most GK armies, are speed and range. Furthermore Draigo is the only one with a better invulnerable then 3++ and they aren’t fearless any more. Almost all GK armies are also heavily dependent on Psychic powers.

 

So use speed and range to your advantage. Spam high strength and low AP. Use a Librarian to negate his Psychic powers and force as many moral tests as you can.

 

To keep it at an all-comers level, you can use multifunctional units like Conversion beamers, Thunder fires, and Telion Scouts. I would not recommend the Vindicator thou… unless you target swamp the Paladins… The vindicator will probably hit 2-3 Paladins, but with Draigo in the unit, you will only kill 1-2 of them) and in return the paladins will be in range of with 2-4 master crafted Psycannons.

[Validar]

am I the only one thinking 2x lash prince and 9 oblits? Or some vindicators?

 

With lash you can get them out of cover and fit them nicely under your little template. That should take out terminators, even with 2 wounds, pretty quick. The oblits would make short work of the dreadknights too, since they hardly ever find themselves in cover.

[breng77]

Would that codex space marines had lash/oblits.

[Ming]

As above, having a Librarian with null zone and a way to deliver multiple AP2 hits is key, plus your own counterassault unit that either delivers PW attacks at higher I, or can weather his attacks and then respond at I1S8. GK lists can be broken quickly that way.

 

Also - for the OP - frankly you may have been cheesed or misled throughout the game; the best thing for that is to slow down the tempo and make sure your know and can verify what he is doing. You'd be surprised what some will do with a "borrowed" list....

[Validar]

Would that codex space marines had lash/oblits.

 

I read it as CSM :(

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Would that codex space marines had lash/oblits.

 

I read it as CSM :P

 

So you missed all the prior references to Librarians and Null Zone, then? Also mentioned were Sternguard, Telion, Thunderfire Cannons, and Conversion Beamers, none of which are in C:CSM.

[Brother Ambroz]

am I the only one thinking 2x lash prince and 9 oblits? Or some vindicators?

 

With lash you can get them out of cover and fit them nicely under your little template. That should take out terminators, even with 2 wounds, pretty quick. The oblits would make short work of the dreadknights too, since they hardly ever find themselves in cover.

 

So the DPs can get shot to death from the insane GK midrange shooting? Even with oblits, their templates are ap 2 yes, but they're only str 7. You're going to want to ID those paladins or he'll play wound allocation shenanigans all night with you.

 

If I were you I'd go with what the others have said, just tank shock him and escort him off the table or just ignore him completely if you can. Problem with vindis is their armor, dragiowing can DS behind or on the weak side armor and pop them pretty easily.

[Validar]

Would that codex space marines had lash/oblits.

 

I read it as CSM :lol:

 

So you missed all the prior references to Librarians and Null Zone, then? Also mentioned were Sternguard, Telion, Thunderfire Cannons, and Conversion Beamers, none of which are in C:CSM.

 

So, you're the happy fellow around here? Thank you for spreading the love.

 

@Tanith: With wings you get to decide when you go within the 24" deathzone to start your thing, so no need to worry about being blasted before you do your big move. But enough of that. It seems so off topic that heads of certain people are about to explode :huh:

 

appologies for the offtopic

[breng77]

Lash works really well against Paladins (unless they have a Libby and/or Dreads standing nearby). Hit them from 24" Move them together(and away a bit) and then drop 9 Plasma Cannons on the squad. Sure its not instant death but if you wound 4-5 guys with each template you are looking at 36-45 AP2 wounds. Lash also causes pinning, which although unreliable, if you pin a Paladin Deathstar (which can happen) you negate like half your opponents army.

[MagicMan]

4 - 5 Guys with each plasma cannon template?

 

 

More like 2 - 3, but it does sound like a decent strategy.

[breng77]

Depends on the Rolls you get with both lash and Scatter, the Deathstar is 11 Models, If you get an average Lash Roll, and can Really group up the unit, in say deepstrike formation, and you can hit dead center on one with 5-6 around him, you can end up with around 7 hits., you can get more, if you scatter into the middle of a few guys, then more like 2-4. If your lash roll is bad, then it might only be 1-2.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So, you're the happy fellow around here? Thank you for spreading the love.

 

Yes, actually, I'm a pretty nice guy. I was just pointing out what was, to me, an interesting fact and its implications on whether or not you actually read the previous posts. I was honestly not trying to be mean or trollish or flamey or anything, I'm just a sharpshooter at heart.

 

But since the conversation has turned to Chaos, I think that Lashing them followed by Oblit p-cannons is really the only effective strategy. If you've got a plasma or melta-heavy Chosen squad that'd work to put wounds on them, but you're not going to butcher the unit before it gets to you without The One Chaos Build To Rule Them All. Other options:

 

1.) Wind of Chaos. Cuts through armor and FNP, mass-wounding capability, but no IDing the paladins. Probably only good for clean-up duties because honestly, if you're flamer range, you're in charge range.

 

2.) Vindicator. IDs the pallies, but the number of shots Relentless psycannons put out make Rending the armor and silencing that gun very easy to do. Maybe if you have two of them, the redundancy factor will save you.

[MagicMan]

Depends on the Rolls you get with both lash and Scatter, the Deathstar is 11 Models, If you get an average Lash Roll, and can Really group up the unit, in say deepstrike formation, and you can hit dead center on one with 5-6 around him, you can end up with around 7 hits., you can get more, if you scatter into the middle of a few guys, then more like 2-4. If your lash roll is bad, then it might only be 1-2.

 

 

 

Hah yeah i guess, maybe im just unlucky with my scatter roles. Plasma Cannons bring out the pessimist in me...

[Captain Idaho]

I say deal with the rest of the army as best you can in objective games whilst hitting the Paladin squad with Vindicators and units with multple heavy shots each turn. 2 AP2 Lascannons should net you a kill, especially with good old Null Zone. You might even make Draigo himself cower in the unit with Null Zone in use!

 

Remember even if you only kill 2 models a turn, you will wipe the unit out by turn 5 and make them less offensive with each kill.

 

So a Predator with sponson Lascannons, Landraiders and Vindicators all in a list will be fairly dangerous. Due to the fact they can only shoot a single target, a pair or trio of Attack Bikes or Landspeeders with Multi-Meltas can take a toll also, since they might fly under the radar. After all, the GK player will want to kill that Vindicator before the Attack Bikers.

 

It all contributes. With Null Zone you actually make the opposing player a little uncomfortable putting wounds on Draigo. I'd use that as a tactic in fact. A combat squad accompanying the Librarian in a transport in cover but within 24" could take 2 or 3 turns to eliminate, thus making the Paladin player choose between a concerted effort to remove Null Zone or try and remove the shooting threats taking advantage of the Null Zone.

[greatcrusade08]

as soon as draigo dies, youve got the paladins licked IMO.

the one game i wiped the floor with pallies, my opponent got unlucky putting all the single shot las/plas/melta wounds on draigo.. i dont think he passed a single 3++ save.

[ssjcloudx]

i just played against a draigowing army last week and had pretty good luck with the thunderfire cannon against them with the subterrain ammo, only caused like 2 wounds total the whole game but kept him out of the fight. He had a full 10 man paladin squad stuck midfield all game while my bikes and tacticals chewed up the rest of his force, had telion and scouts throwing stuff against him as well just for the hell of it. It was kindof fun watching a thousand point squad just stuck midfield because of terrain and unlucky difficult terrain rolls.

[DerekLee688]

-C:SM: I'd suggest a thunderfire to slow down the already slow 11-TDA unit. If you use Honor guard/TDA/etc. to counter assault them, then hide a Ironclad to tarpit them and set up the counter assault. <-- this is all theory hammer as I've had no practical experience with fighting the new codex.

 

-C:CSM: Oblits, I'd suggest Lascannons/TL-melta gun for the AP/ID. Of course if you can cram 3-5 of them under a PC template then go for it, just keep in mind you won't ID any of them.

[Axagoras]

I would use vulkan and a librarian with nullzone and might in a land raider with 10 cm sternguard, and a thunderfire some typhoons and tac squads with missiles and melta or plasma. Roll up, activate nullzone and shoot 10 twin linked melta shots then charge in (always better to charge then be charged and 7 should die from that), then focus fire on what survives.

[DarkGuard]

I think up close I'd prefer Lysander, some Hammernators and a Librarian sitting back with Null Zone. Lots of instant death goodness and the ability to soak up a lot of damage. And then still have mass melta to think them out a bit. ;)

[ssjcloudx]

the only problem with hammernators is the fact that theyre hitting last on the assault, most draigowing armies that i have seen have lots of weapon variety, your gonna have probably 8 or so paladins hitting you before your hammernators even get a chance to swing. i would not be confident with rolling all those invul saves before i even get a chance to hit back.