Dreadknight semi-fluff question

[*Furyou Miko]

At its indomitable heart is an adamantium-alloy skeleton, whose great limbs are given live by a compact but powerful plasma reactor. Over tis are layered a series of bonded-ceramite plates and armoured control linkages.

 

Once a grey knight...

 

... and the all but impenetrable force field tat protects the otherwise exposed pilot...

 

So, the Dreadknight is protected by the same stuff that gives Thunderhawks and the Land Raider Achilles immunity to Melta, and has a nigh-impenetrable force field. OK, I can understand that. They're meant to fight greater daemons, etc, etc...

 

This raises, in my mind, a few questions:

 

1) If they're piloted by the Elite, why aren't they a wargear option for Brotherhood Champions, Brother-Captains and Grand Masters?

 

2) Why in the name of the Sigillite are they wasting suits of Terminator Armour on these things?! Surely with that much armour plate and an impenetrable forcefield, the Terminator suit's 2+ save / 5++ invulnerable save is completely redundant, and it's not like the Dreadknight uses the pilot's muscles (or armour-enhanced muscles) to actually swing its weapons, so that's two our of three benefits of Terminator Armour made redundant already. As for the third benefit, the thing has weapon hardpoints, so it's not like the Terminator strapped into the cockpit can use an assault cannon or a cyclone, is it?

 

3) Nemesis Doomfists? Really?

 

4) Do these things really just give +2 S, T and W and +1 A? Is that the entire point of a massive suit of exo-skeletal armour? Why does it only have two hand-mounted weapons? Why not fit it with a Dreadknight-sized Cyclone weapon system, or back-mounted hunter killers, or some kind of psycannon sub-turret? So much wasted potential. It's got a plasma reactor. Why does it not have energy weapons? Imperial Knights are powered by batteries!

[Chengar Qordath]

Miko, you should know by now that Matt Ward fluff always falls apart the instant you apply any scrutiny to it.

[Pbenner]

In before Matt Ward hate fest causes thread lock...

 

Paul

[the jeske]

1) If they're piloted by the Elite, why aren't they a wargear option for Brotherhood Champions, Brother-Captains and Grand Masters?

because some of those are inv +4 and the last thing they want is a MC who can shunt 30" with a biger nemezis sword [droping the inv to +3] or having an i7 dude with str 6 basic with possible buffs . or how he could [being a MC] put scout on d3 targets and give scout to all . ah and let us not forget granedes. I envision a GK army looking like this . 2xGK GM in NDK 3xNDK 2xlas/plas razors 2x5 GK with 1 psy. your roll 2d3 and if you happen to start you [on avarge] have 5 scouting NDKs that charge turn 1.

 

Also draigo in a NDK unlocking NDK for paladins 0_0 .

[The Holy Heretic]

We also have no options for a jump infantry character.

 

GK is a sad and poor codex, fit for little more than an SC drivel fest :tu:

[jeffersonian000]

The GK codex is based more in fluff than most 'Dexes seem to be, and not very well written fluff at that. However:

 

1) DreadKnights are piloted by Gry Knights to are able to move a hunk of machinery with their minds, per "Prospero Burns". Not all Grey Knights are that good, sorry to say.

 

2) All Grey Knights wear TDA, because TDA is their "Power Armour". GK power armor is their "Scout Armour".

 

3) The "Doomfist Denoucement" in the FAQ is a bad call, plain and simple. The person that decided a Power Fist variant would not behaive as a Power Fist simply because they forgot that Doomfists are Power Fists really should not be answering rules question in an official capacity.

 

4) Yes, they are under-powered and over-priced ... and yet still they still are too tough for many people to deal with. I'd call it balance, be it accidental on GW's part.

 

SJ

[Valerian]

A Wolf Lord is a pretty decent unit entry in the Space Wolves codex- probably more formidable than a generic Chapter Master from codex Space Marines when you consider the Sagas that are available. Mount him on a Thunderwolf and that Wolf Lord becomes a wrecking ball- a real monster in close combat. This option also demonstrates a little "fluff continuity" as we imagine that some of those Wolf Guard on Thunderwolves (the TWC unit entry), might one day move up to replace a fallen Wolf Lord; when they do, there is no good reason that they'd suddenly stop using their favorite method of fighting.

 

I hadn't really considered it until this thread, but there is a lack of similar consistency in the Grey Knights codex, and it is very likely due to differences between how Kelly and Ward think about army lists. Putting balance issues aside for a moment, where are the characters with Personal Teleporters? They're good enough for units of Interceptors, but Grey Knights can't see the value of strapping one on to a Techmarine, or Brotherhood Champion, or even a Brother Captain? Where are the heroes in Dreadknight suits? Surely someone had the skills to operate one, and still desires fighting with one after having been elevated to a leadership position in the Chapter. Admittedly, a generic Grand Master with a Dreadknight suit option might get quickly out of hand, but I can certainly envision a HQ choice special character that fights in one (a la Canis Wolfborne). Perhaps we'll see an expansion of these concepts in the next codex, a decade from now.

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

Or through Forgeworld. :lol:

 

Over Grand Master Doomhand of the Grey Knights (225 points)

 

WS: 7, S: 6, T:6, W: 4, I: 6, A: 4, Ld: 10, Sv: 2+

 

Wargear

Iron Halo

Nemesis Greatsword - Titan Pattern

Personal Teleporter

Two Heavy Incinerators

Doomhands DreadKnight

Teleport Homer

Three Servo Skulls

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

Rad Grenades

Psychostroke Grenades

 

Special Rules

Eternal Warrior

Stubborn

The Grand Strategy

DreadKnight Advance

Psycher Mastery Level: 2

Deep Strike

 

Psychic Powers

Sanctuary

Hammerhand

Dark Excommunication

Holocaust

 

Nemesis Greatsword - Titan Pattern

 

As a Nemesis Greatsword, but also Increases Invulnerable Saves by +1 in Close combat only.

 

Doomhands Dreadknight

 

This NDK provides a 4+ Invulnerable Save. It also folds up nice and compact, and has some large magnets. Allowing it to be transported in a Storm Ravens Dreadnough grapple bay.

 

DreadKnight Advance

 

If OGMDotGK is chosen, DreadKnights become Troop Choices. Which are also upgraded and able to be carried by a Storm Ravens Dreadnought grapple bay.

 

:)

[*Furyou Miko]

You see, I was asking an honest question. GL is just being sarcastic. >< It's not like I'm a grey knights player whining about my army not being powerful enough (although I do like the idea of sticking a Canoness in a Dreadknight! Mwahaha!! And I shall call her Ellen).

 

Not sure if I understand jefferson. Grey Knight 'scouts' wear power armour? I haven't read that before, but I guess it would make sense... ish.

 

Valerian, I can't find it in myself to disagree with you. It would certainly make sense.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sarcastic? Nah, sardonic at Forgeworlds ability to write balanced rules. ;)

 

I agree with you, the fluff of the NDK has been tempered with, purely for game balance.

 

Grey Knight 'scouts' wear power armour

 

Strike Squads are supposed to get to places before the GK army proper. They are the 'scouts' of the army, while the GKT are the basic troops.

 

Sadly, Strikes don't get any rules that actually relate to this fluff. DS doesn't cut it, they should have had either Scout or Infiltrate.

 

As for your questions;

 

1) If they're piloted by the Elite, why aren't they a wargear option for Brotherhood Champions, Brother-Captains and Grand Masters?

 

As Val said. Same reason we can't take PTs for any characters. Oversight by the designer, or Balance reasons.

 

2) Why in the name of the Sigillite are they wasting suits of Terminator Armour on these things?! Surely with that much armour plate and an impenetrable forcefield, the Terminator suit's 2+ save / 5++ invulnerable save is completely redundant, and it's not like the Dreadknight uses the pilot's muscles (or armour-enhanced muscles) to actually swing its weapons, so that's two our of three benefits of Terminator Armour made redundant already. As for the third benefit, the thing has weapon hardpoints, so it's not like the Terminator strapped into the cockpit can use an assault cannon or a cyclone, is it?

 

In the leaked playtest dex, the NDK had a 4+ due to it's shield (And S/T7). I'm guessing this was just too good for a 2+ save MC. Still, the Avatar Immunity to Melta Weapons wouldn't go amis. ;) But when you can design a 2++ save stave, why on earth wouldn't you fit at least that into your CC weapon of destruction?

 

3) Nemesis Doomfists? Really?

 

At least it's not Wolf Wolfborn riding a giant Wolf wielding Wolf Claws... ;)

 

But it's close. ;)

 

4) Do these things really just give +2 S, T and W and +1 A? Is that the entire point of a massive suit of exo-skeletal armour? Why does it only have two hand-mounted weapons? Why not fit it with a Dreadknight-sized Cyclone weapon system, or back-mounted hunter killers, or some kind of psycannon sub-turret? So much wasted potential. It's got a plasma reactor. Why does it not have energy weapons? Imperial Knights are powered by batteries!

 

Becuase the 'Heavy' versions of the Psilencer and Psycannon suck. We don't get normal Cyclones, so the NDK doesn't get super cylones.

 

It got a super Psycannon, but that turned out to be /meh.

 

It should have been able to choose two of the same Ranged weapons though.

 

The NDK doesn't just give the stat increases, but also the benefits MC status brings. Like the ability to shoot two weapons. And 2d6 armour pen in CC.

[Valerian]

2) Why in the name of the Sigillite are they wasting suits of Terminator Armour on these things?! Surely with that much armour plate and an impenetrable forcefield, the Terminator suit's 2+ save / 5++ invulnerable save is completely redundant, and it's not like the Dreadknight uses the pilot's muscles (or armour-enhanced muscles) to actually swing its weapons, so that's two our of three benefits of Terminator Armour made redundant already. As for the third benefit, the thing has weapon hardpoints, so it's not like the Terminator strapped into the cockpit can use an assault cannon or a cyclone, is it?

 

I forgot to address this point earlier. Although the Dreadknight frame and the force-field might offer redundant combat protection to the Tactical Dreadnought Armour, I'm guessing the fluff-justification to strapping a TDA equipped Grey Knight into it, rather than Grey Knight in a loin cloth is two-fold:

 

First, the TDA is there to continue to protect the fellow when the force-field is disrupted or fails.

 

Second, the TDA also protects from: extremes in pressure, extremes in temperature, poisonous gases, vacuums, and all of the other environmental hazards that the Dreadknight's force-field probably does not.

 

V

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, but power armour does all that, too.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

From a fluff point of view, the main fighting force of a Grey Knight Brotherhood are the Terminators. Everything else is designed to facilitate the act of the Terminators diving into the heart of a daemonic infestation and ending it.

 

Dreadknights are designed to go toe to toe with Greater Daemons, Strike squads are designed to hold ground and form a perimeter, interceptors are their as a rapid response unit etc.

 

The guys in command wear TDA because their job is to ride in with the Terminators and end the daemonic threat.

 

That's the fluff justification for the lack of special wargear fo HQs at least

[Gentlemanloser]

Purifiers and Purgation Squads?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Purifiers and Purgation Squads?

 

They come under the heading etc.

 

Purgation squads are fire support, laying down fire to cover an advance or to dominate a killzone.

 

Purifiers are a small, elite group that facilitate the direct action of the GKT.

 

I never said the fluff worked, not sure any fluff written by Ward actualy makes sense, but that's how it's supposed to go and that's why the Grand Master, Brother Captain and Libby don't get special gear like Dreadknights or teleporters. From the fluff perspective.

 

Now game balance is a whole new ballgame, a grandmaster in a dreadknight would be just stupidly OP.

[Inquisitor =D=]

I think the reasons certain units use Power Armor rather than TDA is thus

 

Strikes; Assess the situation, quicker to respond than TDA being able to use Razorbacks and Rhinos.

 

Purifiers; Perhaps the particulars of their order? Not too sure on these silly people.

 

Purgation; For better access to fire lanes and vantage points, able to redeploy via Rhino and Razorback.

 

Interceptors; Rapid strike/ response. Must be unhindered in the even they land on unsafe terrain.

 

Champion; To master the sword one cannot be encumbered with such heavy armor as TDA.

 

 

Now I know someone is going to spout out "Teleporters! They have Teleporters!" to which I remind you "Void shields can disrupt/stop teleportation." Its better to make the super-soldier walk than flip a coin and lose him. Especially when you consider that void shields are standard on most Imperial fortifications, even the Arbites precincts are void shielded.

 

=]D[=

[*Furyou Miko]

lol, I find it amusing that the question "Why doesn't he have power armour?" has turned into "hang on, why DO those guys have power armour?!"