SW geneseed

[Grimtooth]

There are quotes in our codex regarding how deadly the SW geneseed happens to be to aspirants. However, by all accounts SW aspirants seem to be older then other chapters when it comes to implantation. We even have some of Russ' original retainers surviving implantation later in life and surviving, albeit very few.

 

Might this be a quirk of the SW geneseed or just a quirk of the SW rituals regarding when our geneseed is implanted?

[Valerian]

There are quotes in our codex regarding how deadly the SW geneseed happens to be to aspirants. However, by all accounts SW aspirants seem to be older then other chapters when it comes to implantation.

 

By all accounts? By what accounts, other than perhaps guessing that Lukas was older, because he was a known womanizer?

 

"Space Wolves are chosen from the bravest and noblest youths of Fenris. In the constant tribal warfare for possession of land, each youth is given a chance to fight and die in service of his warrior gods, the Emperor and Leman Russ. Space Marines must be selected young for them to have any chance of surviving the difficult transformation from normal human to superbeing."

 

--WD156/246

 

Might this be a quirk of the SW geneseed or just a quirk of the SW rituals regarding when our geneseed is implanted?

 

Of course it is the geneseed:

 

"The Space Wolves, the 6th Legion, were the genetic progeny of Russ and carried within them a unique gift: the Canis Helix, the Mark of the Wolf that sets the Space Wolves apart from the Space Marines of other Chapters. The Canis Helix invests the Space Wolves with the acute predatory senses of the wolves native to their home world of Fenris, but this gift comes at a price: the Curse of the Wulfen. Those brothers who succumb to the Curse degenerate into savage, malformed parodies of their brethren. In most cases, the Curse manifests during training, but in others, the effects of the Curse become apparent many years later in the heat of battle. The Space Wolves' harsh induction regime generally ensures that these individuals perish at an early stage in the process."

 

--WD 283

 

"Although the aspirant does not know it, the feast had a purpose. The geneseed is beginning to work on his body, rushing through it and restructuring it. Muscle mass is being added, bones are beginning to fuse together, and the very structure of his brain is beginning to alter, quickening his reactions and heightening his perceptions. Vestigial fangs are starting to emerge. The venison provides the raw protein for this, and the sacred ale was laced with the necessary trace chemicals to fuel the change.

 

The aspirant knows none of this. He is wracked with pain and his body stretches and grows. His mind is haunted by visions and sanity fades. He becomes wolf-like, feral, maddened by agony and hunger. Now is the worst time, he is constantly hungry because his changing body needs more and more nourishment if it is to sustain growth. Failure to provide this will be fatal as his body begins to cannibalise itself.

 

These first few days are the most critical. The aspirant must feed often. He is usually left near a source of food such as an elk herd. Near mindless, he must hunt them down, eat their raw flesh and drink their blood. Some aspirants, unable to meet the challenge, perish. Some, whether due to some flaw in themselves or the geneseed, never get beyond this stage. They become mindless creatures, with an animal's cunning. They continue to grow and hunger for flesh, eventually becoming Wulfen, the most feared monsters on Fenris."

 

--WD 156/246

 

Add that to the 5th Edition codex which states something to the effect of, "the Canis Helix is responsible for the deaths of millions of Fenrisians" and I'd say it is pretty clear.

 

Best,

 

Valerian

[Grimtooth]

By all accounts I do mean Lukas, but also Ragnar (Sven, etc, etc), Arjac, and Canis. They appear to be older then what is standard for other chapters. And as I mentioned, Russ' original Fenrisian retainers were older and some survived that encounter which I think was unheard of among other chapters. There are instances of other chapters augmentating the existing warriors, but I have yet to remember any taking the geneseed implant leter in life.

[Valerian]

I suppose you are right about those 5th Edition creations- Lukas, Arjak, and Canis all indicate the ascendence to Marine as an adult, which not only runs counter to previous Studio fluff, it runs counter to statements in the same document that say they're supposed to be young.

 

I can only assume that either: Phil Kelly completely forgot about a pretty major background material fact; or, two that it is a conscious decision to retcon that fact to make it perhaps less offensive? Maybe GW had been receiving complaints of promoting the exploitation of children. It reminds me of the phase in DnD when Demons and Devils stopped being Demons and Devils and were changed to some other names/concepts back many years ago.

 

V

[Grimtooth]

Maybe the new stuff could be an extension of what was said of the members of the 13th Co in Wolf at the Door. I don't consider it the normal circumstance, with them and the 5th edition characters exceptions to the rule that seems to run only in the SW.

[maverik_girl]

Add that to the 5th Edition codex which states something to the effect of, "the Canis Helix is responsible for the deaths of millions of Fenrisians" and I'd say it is pretty clear.

 

Best,

 

Valerian

which adds to my question, how often does the Wolves recruit? and what kind of numbers can the the Wolves really get from such a harsh environment? keeping in mind the sparse pockets of tribes littered here and there with what solid land mass available in the two terran years.

[Valerian]

Add that to the 5th Edition codex which states something to the effect of, "the Canis Helix is responsible for the deaths of millions of Fenrisians" and I'd say it is pretty clear.

 

Best,

 

Valerian

which adds to my question, how often does the Wolves recruit? and what kind of numbers can the the Wolves really get from such a harsh environment? keeping in mind the sparse pockets of tribes littered here and there with what solid land mass available in the two terran years.

 

I can't hazard a guess as to the numbers that they recruit, but I can answer your first question- the Space Wolves are constantly recruiting; there is no gap/break in that responsibility:

 

"At least one Wolf Priest always stalks the surface of Fenris seeking promising new candidates to recruit into the ranks of the Space Wolves. Wolf Priests perform the ritual implanting of the geneseed and supervise every aspect of training the aspirants. Wolf Priests are the first Space Marines any new recruit has dealings with, and they sternly supervise their development. During training, Space Wolves gain an almost religious respect for these grim old men that never leaves them. A brawl between drunken Space Wolves can be broken up by a single word from a Wolf Priest. It is said that a Wolf Priest's face is the first and last that Space Wolves ever see. They look on it for the first time when they are recruited and for the final time when the Wolf Priest performs the benedicto ultimatus."

 

WD246

 

At least one is always watching for candidates, sometimes more than just the one.

[Max_Dammit]

It also depends on the size of the planet, the bigger the more tribes the more recruiting grounds, and most chapters take young ones that show promise, but by what measure, just be course there brave?, SW take young warriors, those they've seen fight, so they know there made from the right stuff.

 

the canis helix pre-pairs the body for the rest of the changes, this might be part of why we can use older kids

[King Willy]

I ve always found it more plausible to think that a fenrisian male will be considered a man at a much younger age, they wouldn't have the time to be kids, right from the get go they need to start fighting so Lukas' womanizing could have been at a very young age like 13 to 16 cause I think the window of implantation is around 12 to 18.

 

Even Arjac could have been a prodigy with the forge and was actually increidbly young but would look far older due to the social conventions of Fenris

[eyeslikethunder]

I ve always found it more plausible to think that a fenrisian male will be considered a man at a much younger age, they wouldn't have the time to be kids, right from the get go they need to start fighting so Lukas' womanizing could have been at a very young age like 13 to 16 cause I think the window of implantation is around 12 to 18.

 

Even Arjac could have been a prodigy with the forge and was actually increidbly young but would look far older due to the social conventions of Fenris

But where the desire for such activities coming from without the teenage hormones

[King Willy]

Natural selection would weed out those who don't enter pubety very young, it s not unheard of for young boys to enter puberty before the ages of 15, Precocious puberty.

On a planet were only the strongest have a chance to survive past infantcy such a thing as hitting puberty young would be seen as an advantage as a strong child would become a stronger male who would make even stronger offspring, eventually the gene pool would be awash with the genes that facilitate quicker maturity till growing facial hair at 12 is the norm.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, we do know from Luther and Kor Phaeron that it's possible to bestow a sort of "proto-Astartes" modifications, which boost the implantee above mere human levels, but not to true Astartes levels. I think we can assume that Russ' retainers were given that treatment, under current background. As for the others... people develop early on Fenris?

[Grey Mage]

I ve always found it more plausible to think that a fenrisian male will be considered a man at a much younger age, they wouldn't have the time to be kids, right from the get go they need to start fighting so Lukas' womanizing could have been at a very young age like 13 to 16 cause I think the window of implantation is around 12 to 18.

 

Even Arjac could have been a prodigy with the forge and was actually increidbly young but would look far older due to the social conventions of Fenris

But where the desire for such activities coming from without the teenage hormones

I had the annoying 'honor' of needing to shave when I was 12. I had the first signs of puberty- a lil bit of hair, and some of the smells- at age 10.

 

Puberty, and everything that comes with it, starts quite early in some people. The world record for parents was a 7 year old boy and 8 yearr old girl over in china IIRC.

[eyeslikethunder]

That just means you got your teenage hormones early

But its how far a person is into puberty that defines whether is still able to be a marine

 

Its not physical age of these characters thats in question as thats not stated its their maturity both physically and sexually

 

Being a world famous womaniser on world with no high tech communications systems is quite a feat

 

but the fact remains that there is no clear answer because none has been given. All we can do is guess

 

 

As an interesting note emperors gift gives a 15 year old 89% chance of failure due geneseed rejection for a GK

[Valerian]

That just means you got your teenage hormones early

But its how far a person is into puberty that defines whether is still able to be a marine

 

Its not physical age of these characters thats in question as thats not stated its their maturity both physically and sexually

 

Being a world famous womaniser on world with no high tech communications systems is quite a feat

 

but the fact remains that there is no clear answer because none has been given. All we can do is guess

 

Exactly.

 

As an interesting note emperors gift gives a 15 year old 89% chance of failure due geneseed rejection for a GK

 

Very interesting, indeed.

[King Willy]

All puberty is, is the hormones in the body going ape:cuss, there what makes you sexually and physically mature, the implants use those chemicals to facilitate the physical growth of the organs. So the earlier puberty occurs the sooner the he may be implanted, assuming the subject is compatible.

 

And the Culture of fenris is also just as nomadic as it is barbaric, so I m not really surprised that news can spread fast, considering that for every group that fights for solid land there will be a hundred meetings between tribes just moving across the ice to some new land they've heard of so stories and information would spread like wildfire, this would probably explain why Wolf Priest can find exceptional individuals so quickly.

[Grimtooth]

Well, we do know from Luther and Kor Phaeron that it's possible to bestow a sort of "proto-Astartes" modifications, which boost the implantee above mere human levels, but not to true Astartes levels. I think we can assume that Russ' retainers were given that treatment, under current background. As for the others... people develop early on Fenris?

 

However as described in Wolf at the Door, the retainers were indeed full fledged Astartes, not just modified humans like Luther or Phaeron.

[Growler67]

By all accounts I do mean Lukas, but also Ragnar (Sven, etc, etc), Arjac, and Canis. They appear to be older then what is standard for other chapters.

 

I beg to differ. IIRC from the Space Wolf Omnibus: Ragnar Saga, he was approximately elder teenaged like the others when he and Sven were "chosen". Perhaps maybe in their early 20's but certainly no older. As for Lukas, Canis and Arjac, there isn't sufficient background fluff to assertain their precise age for when they were "chosen", though it can be inferred that Lukas was older than the usual age demographic.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

As an interesting note emperors gift gives a 15 year old 89% chance of failure due geneseed rejection for a GK

 

Only one in ten making in through sounds a little odd - Fallen Angels has the I Legion achieving a near perfect success rate...

 

Edit, 98% making it from selection through training the deployment. Timescale is given as 24 mths in total so we're probably not talking about selecting them too young?

[eyeslikethunder]

It does suggest its far higher if they are younger....

 

Fallen angels is Heresey period

Having the Primarchs helped with marine production

[skoll]

I was under the impression that Ragnar was quite young in his book , probably 15-17 range. However it is worthy of note that in the blood ravens omnibus a young guardsman its assumed that he is in his early 20s or very late teens, undergoes the process to become a space marine, there is a mild mutation in his hands because of the advanced age, but overall he survives the process splendidly.

[Leonaides]

I thought he was more like 13-14 tbh... Tribe attacked on the night before he became a man, in an environment where life is hard and you're unlikely to live to go grey-haired (so 40-50 is a good innings on Fenris), its not going to be 18 is it. Its only 16-18 in the modern western world because of Victorian prudery, even a hundred years ago in England 15-16 was hardly uncommon for people to be in 'relationships'...

[Valerian]

It does suggest its far higher if they are younger....

 

Correct, and I think that was the point- starting at 15 is a little too old for it to work for most boys.

 

Having the Primarchs helped with marine production

 

Hmm. I wonder why you think this is so. I'd surmise that the presence of the Primarchs was irrelevant. The Emperor already had the genetic material from the that he needed from them, and had the Legions fully formed in their absence. I think the value of the Primarchs was in their leadership, martial prowess, and unique capabilities, but now necessarily their influence on Space Marine creation.

 

Best

V

[eyeslikethunder]

Hmm. I wonder why you think this is so.

 

There was something in index astartes about it IIRC I will have to dig it out

 

With the rediscovery of all of the Primarchs, the time required for Space Marine production was dramatically decreased;

[the jeske]

Natural selection would weed out those who don't enter pubety very young, it s not unheard of for young boys to enter puberty before the ages of 15, Precocious puberty.

On a planet were only the strongest have a chance to survive past infantcy such a thing as hitting puberty young would be seen as an advantage as a strong child would become a stronger male who would make even stronger offspring, eventually the gene pool would be awash with the genes that facilitate quicker maturity till growing facial hair at 12 is the norm.

 

only fenris is not a food heavy enviroment , there is no way that with the 1 year winters [no fruits , less vitamins , less sun to absorb does . slower growth] they would grow up faster . If anything they would grow up later. + the number of mighty warriors at the age of 12 is kind of a small . a dude would have to be a mutant for that to happen . A 12 years old fenrisian[half of those years are winters] wouldnt have enough time to grow enough to join the young man brotherhoods . More important there is absolutly no way a jarl would take a band of 12-13 year old to war/hunt and give them a small part of the loot[even if the fluff says it is a small cut].

having starting facial hair at 12 doesnt mean nothing if your bone and muscle structure isnt there to make you a man . a pumped up on testosteron child is not a man.

 

 

the modern western world because of Victorian prudery, even a hundred years ago in England 15-16 was hardly uncommon for people to be in 'relationships'...

yes butt aht would still mean that he got transported for a one whole seson to the camps at Russavik . they would still have to end the implantation proces way past the time of him being a young adult .whole proces is around 2 years without the trip which and we didnt know how long that took .But even if it was a week or two we are still looking and implantation ended at 18-19 years.