Periclitor

[Kol Saresk]

Hey guys, what exactly are the sources for Periclitor being a Night Lord? I know there is Chapter War by Ben Counter. I'm being told that the 3rd Edition of CSM says that his Legion wasn't specified but I know a lot of you thought of him as a Night Lord back in that "Night Lords and the Warp" thread way back when.

 

EDIT: Actually I just shot through Chapter War and his Legion isn't mentioned.

[The Colossus]

I could be wrong, but I think he's in 3.5 codex...

 

He's mentioned but no legion, my bad.

 

I keep finding lots of stuff on the lexicanum and wikis about him having a night lords warband, but coming from the word bearers initially... I can't determine the sources for this though...

[Kol Saresk]

Does it mention which Legion he was in though? I don't have it so I can neither confirm nor deny this claim and I am being told that since his Legion of origin was left in the dark, Forgeworld made him a Word Bearer because of what he did to the SoB and Ecclesiarchy members. But I always remembered him being a Night Lord for some reason and the way he assassinated Furioso of the Howling Griffons and then staked his body to his own Thunderhawk and left a beacon for his Chapter to find him would be reminescent of the Night Lords.

[The Colossus]

It doesn't say what legion. It might be this is one of those instances where fan opinion has become canon fact in the eyes of the fans, but actually wasn't true to start with...

[Lord_Caerolion]

From what I remember, it was from one of the Eye of Terror event cards. GW supplied a load of them in a WD after the campaign was over, for home use. One was about the Howling Griffons getting revenge against the Night Lords daemon prince, Periclitor.

[The Colossus]

From what I remember, it was from one of the Eye of Terror event cards. GW supplied a load of them in a WD after the campaign was over, for home use. One was about the Howling Griffons getting revenge against the Night Lords daemon prince, Periclitor.

 

Which issue? I have one of those, but I missed the one preceding it. Did it have event cards in too?

[ThisisJimmy]

What I understand is that he was a member of the Word Bearers, but upon elevation to Daemonhood, has become less affiliated with a specific warband. He is in the 3.5 codex, and whilst it wasn't stated explicitly, I think the implication is that he is (at that time) a Word Bearer. The implication comes from lines such as: "That one so certain in their faith and teachings may be turned gives hope to us all that the servants of the False Emperor may not be so deaf to our preachings" (p.63). Not definitive proof by any stretch of the imagination, but that is par for the course when it comes to 40k lore.

 

EDIT: clarification

[The Colossus]

I do have the Eye of Terror event cards from WD, but again, no legion is given...

[Kol Saresk]

Well it's strange because I was looking him, up there is mention of an event card "The Voice is Silenced" I believe callin him a Night Lord but most people don't count it because it was unplayed and so technically never happened. Just that it could have happened. The Chapter War does everything it can to keep his origins unclear. And from what I've heard, his Chosen Marines were Night Lords and that is where the assumption is coming from. But I've gone through thirty pages on Google and everything that calls him a Night Lord doesn't mention a source but there is a crap ton of people who think of him as a Night Lord. Even though IA9 has been published.

[Brother Nihm]

Codex: Chaos Space marines, 3rd edition is the best source, as is the short-story GW used to have on their website. A short-story that was interestingly enough rehashed later into Periclitor's fluff but used to be about Krieg Acerbus.

 

From what I remember, it was from one of the Eye of Terror event cards. GW supplied a load of them in a WD after the campaign was over, for home use. One was about the Howling Griffons getting revenge against the Night Lords daemon prince, Periclitor.

This I believe, I cannot remember the name of it but I do seem to recall that it was never played in the official campaign.

 

Edit: I think the name of the card was The Griffon Resurgent

 

Edit 2: UK White Dwarf #284 may shed some light on this, i don't have it with me here though so I cannot confirm.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, I don't remember it being played in the campaign, or what issue it was, but I definitely remembered it, as Periclitors name stood out to me, and it most certainly called him a Night Lord.

[Kol Saresk]

The closest thing I can find is White Dwarf UK 309. All it says that he was with a company of Night Lords and the Howling Griffons hated him.

 

This is what Forgeworld told me:

His first appearance in the previous edition of Codex Chaos Space Marines doesn't specify an origin Legion, but his specific attacks upon, and corruption of, the Ecclesiarchy and their demesnes implies the tainted faith and evangelism of the Word Bearers, something that we built upon and revealed fully in the Howling Griffons background.

[Kol Saresk]

So basically there are thirty pages worth of people on Google who believe that Periclitor was without a doubt a Night Lord. Sadly it seems that all current fluff (IA 9 excluding) that can be accessed do not explicitly state which Traitor Legion he came from. But since he is always seen in the company of Night Lords, this would normally be enough evidence for one to assume that he is a Night Lord as well since there is only one example that I know of an outsider being in charge of a mono-Legion warband. Even then, Zhufor's(who is also a Forgeworld creation) warband is made up of Marines who aren't even World Eaters so Mono-Legion could be a stretch of the word. I don't know. I've submitted everything I can find to Forgeworld so I'm just waiting on the reply. Thanks guys.

[Brother Nihm]

His first appearance in the previous edition of Codex Chaos Space Marines doesn't specify an origin Legion, but his specific attacks upon, and corruption of, the Ecclesiarchy and their demesnes implies the tainted faith and evangelism of the Word Bearers, something that we built upon and revealed fully in the Howling Griffons background.

A bit too vague, as his tactics and the company he keeps go conflict with this. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to fluff but I find it a bit difficult to imagine a warband of Night Lords sworn to a Word Bearer (of all things) Daemon Prince.

 

Still, with the way the rigid fluff boundaries of old have been softened in recent years, it could happen, I guess.

[Kol Saresk]

Your telling me. These are also the same people who invented Zhufor and turned the Skulltakers into World Eaters when in the Codex it says "Formerly Berserkers of Skalathrax" right under their name.

[Vesper]

Zhufor is really cool. Fluff and model wise.

Yes, the whole World Eaters Skulltakers of death from Berzerkers of Skalathrax thingy is a bit messy. But IAs are well written, much more than any recent codex from GW. So I'm ok with the Skulltakers being an offshot of the World Eaters.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't say I had a problem with it, just that it was another example of fluff being tripped over. To be honest, I think every time they try to reprint the fluff, instead of merely expounding on it, they try to add new things and they try to do it in a manner they see fit so in the end, all they do is trip over themselves. For example, who ever the lead designer for IA 9(Forgeworld only says who worked on it, not who played what role) probably remembered that Ecclesiarchy massacre, did a quick skim to check that his origin Legion was unknown and went, "He's a Word Bearer!" Then changed all of the Howling Griffons fluff to match.

 

Same thing probably happened with the Skulltakers. Someone went, "That sounds like a good name for a World Eaters offshoot. Didn't bother checking to see the fine print, printed it and then the fans explained it by the Berserkers being absorbed and making up the majority of the Skulltakers before Zhufor took over. Of course I noticed how BL was touchy about the Skulltakers since McNeill included them, but not Zhufor and he stayed consistent with the Berserkers' side of the fluff by saying that they traveled from the Ghoul Stars where they were last sighted. When Zhufor's Skulltaker's were last sighted at Vraks.

 

EDIT: By they, I mean GW, Forgeworld, White Dwarf, and even BL to some degree. Although it may be biased, BL seems to more or less expand on the unknown parts and this expansion is disliked by the fans whereas Forgeworld reinvents.

[Kol Saresk]

Sorry to double post. Just got Forgeworld's response:

 

Well Night Lords AND Word Bearers among other Chaos Undivided elements were part of his force during the attack on Orlando Furioso as specified in the 3rd ed Chaos Space Marine codex, but his Chosen are not specified as being Night Lords in this text and no Legion is given.

 

The attack on the Howling Griffons' Chapter Master is not really a 'stealth assassination'; specifically it relates to the import and sanctity of the 5,000th anniversary of the Chapter's founding which 'seemed only fitting that he mark it with the reverance it deserved'. No mention is made of Night Lords' usual methods of silent and brutal murder, scrambling vox-links, psychological warfare, and so on.

Similarly each attack upon an Ecclesiarchy holding is specifically because of their faith - 'most savoured of all were the Missionarus and Sororitas...';

'Saint... Jerome the Pure...known to us as Jerome the Fool, Jerome the Blind';

'That one so certain in their faith may be turned gives hope to us all that the servants of the False Emperor may not be so deaf to our preachings';

 

Unfortunately in this instance WD and whatever short story you're referring to are probably incorrect or their authors simply misinterpreted the base text; the Howling Griffons article in IA9 was cross-referenced with the main Design Studio and BL sources.

By his motives and objectives alone he's clearly a prophet of the Ruinous Powers and therefore a Word Bearer.

[Brother Nihm]

Today we present to you, the Daemon Prince Periclitor, formelly known as Krieg Acerbus, formerly a servant of Chaos Undivided, formerly of the Night Lords Legion, now a Word Bearer, yet formerly... :)

[Kraull the Rampager]

So, basically, they say because of the Ecclesiarchy, he was a Word Bearer? Night Lords are skeptics. They scorn faith in all forms. I've read a couple of articles where Night Lords have specifically targetted things like the SoB, AND the Ecclesiarchy simply because it's faithful to the Emperor. FAITHFUL being the key word.

 

Just because they attack the Ecclesiarchy doesn't specifically mean it's a Word Bearer Warband...if anything, I'd say it adds to both points...both a Word Bearer and a Night Lord...

 

But please remember...Periclitor has ascended your mere mortal warbands...The question isn't who he served in his foolish mortal life...the question is who of you serve him as his chosen warriors? And who of you must die for the mistake of reading this statement. :)

[Kol Saresk]

There is also the fact that they called Jerome "Jerome the Blind". That could go either way as well. The only one that tips it in favor of the Night Lords is the White Dwarf article which puts him into the company of Night Lords and how he killed the Cardinal of Bray. They broke into the middle of Candlemass, stabbed in the heart and then ran away. And then later, kept fueling the rebellion that started as a result until he was paid off. But they just said that they dismissed the White Dwarf as it is just wrong.

 

I read the bray part wrong. They attacked Bray until it went broke trying to fight them off and that is what started the civil war.

 

EDIT: All this is telling me is that the Forgeworld designers really don't care what they put out as long as people buy it and whoever disagrees with it is wrong. Which doesn't sit too well with me. Even BL isn't that blatant with its fluff discrepancies.

[ThisisJimmy]

In fairness though, there is neither any conclusive evidence that he was a Night Lord either. Apart from an unreleased Eye of Terror event card, which is not in wide circulation anyway, and a piece of fluff saying he was in the company of Night Lords (which can hardly be called conclusive). The piece of fluff in the 3.5 codex (pg. 63), which chronicles Periclitor's rise to daemonhood doesn't have the tone that I believe a Night Lord would have (being far too reverential, and having nothing of the typical paranoia that typifies the Legion). I think that the points raised by the Forge World response are fair enough. They say they cross checked both design studio and BL sources, and I have no reason not to believe them. The only thing that doesn't sit right is the black-and-whiteness of the final statement.

 

And besides, all fluff is written as though it were from an Imperial point of view. The fact that he was kicking around with a bunch of Night Lords, so some casual Imperial observer tries to puts 2 and 2 together and assumes he is a Night Lord, and adds this to some Chaos dossier. But all the while there already is a Daemon Prince by the name of Periclitor, but he is listed under the Word Bearers, so the mistake goes unnoticed. Far fetched perhaps, but it is a possible, in-universe explanation for this perceived change. Really, I'm not too sure why so many people are up in arms about this when there never was any conclusive evidence pointing one way or another.

[Kol Saresk]

Pretty much the same reason BA fans don't like James Swallow, UM fans don't like Gulliman getting and yelling in KNF(Really don't get that one) and some DA fans don't like how callous El'Jonson is towards his own Legion.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And besides, all fluff is written as though it were from an Imperial point of view. The fact that he was kicking around with a bunch of Night Lords, so some casual Imperial observer tries to puts 2 and 2 together and assumes he is a Night Lord, and adds this to some Chaos dossier. But all the while there already is a Daemon Prince by the name of Periclitor, but he is listed under the Word Bearers, so the mistake goes unnoticed. Far fetched perhaps, but it is a possible, in-universe explanation for this perceived change. Really, I'm not too sure why so many people are up in arms about this when there never was any conclusive evidence pointing one way or another.

 

I don't know why people keep using this argument. Occasionally, it's written from an Imperial viewpoint (well, the "sources" are, not the main text), but just take a look at most of the non-Imperial books, and even some Imperial books, and it's obvious that they're not written with an Imperial viewpoint. It's written from an omniscient viewpoint that leaves some things out. That's an incredibly different thing than Imperial. Cases in point, the DE book has the early history of Commorragh. The Daemons book gives in-depth descriptions of the Realms of the Gods. Hell, even the GK book gives information that noone outside the GK knows, so unless every codex is from the GK point of view, it can't be Imperial. The Dark Angels book tells us the Lion is in the centre of the Rock, something not even the Supreme Grand Master knows. The only possible way they could all be from an Imperial viewpoint is if the Emperor himself is "writing" them.

 

That's just what I can remember off the top of my head as being impossible for an Imperial scholar to know. The other thing to remember is that these aren't intended as fluff-books. They're not meant to be in-character, or at least only to be in-character of the race the book is about. After all, if you're playing a non-Imperial race, you'd want to know more about them than the misinformation known by Imperial Scholar X. Otherwise, the Tau codex would be filled with information about how their technology is rubbish, that they worship Dark Gods, and that they eat children. All of that, by the way, is taken from an actual Imperial source, the Imperial Infantrymans Uplifting Primer. Since the Tau codex doesn't include that, and refers to how Tau technology is superior to Imperial technology (a heretical statement to an Imperial), we know that it's obviously not written by an Imperial source.

 

There are books out there written purely from an Imperial PoV, but they're from Black Library, they're certainly not codices.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know, maybe I am petty for thinking something of this. But what little fluff us Night Lords have(when compared to the other Traitor Legions) and as someone who found out about the entire 40k universe through the fluff(specifically BL; even more specifically Lord of the Night) the fluff is a sensitive thing to me, especially when it is retconned on "he killed church members so he HAS to be Word Bearer". If it wasn't for the fluff, I wouldn't be here. And considering how many people I see who have similar stories in the Bolthole, I ain't the only one.