Periclitor

[Lord_Caerolion]

Oh, I definitely agree. I just disagree with the stupid argument of putting every inconsistency down to "they're from an Imperial p.o.v.".

[Kol Saresk]

Especially since the exact fluff they are mentioning is from one of his followers and all of the religious overtones is directed towards Periclitor himself. And both Legions have directed religious overtones to individuals from Dark Apostles to Lorgar to Kurze to Talos and even a little to the Prophet.

 

EDIT: Sorry, being petty again.

[ThisisJimmy]

I never said it was a good argument (and in retrospect, using "all" was an incorrect thing to do) , but it is simply a way of explaining the vast dearth of evidence on some subjects. If the viewpoint we have is truly omniscient, then why are there things not known? To me, that gap in information sits better if that explanation is used. And saying that sources like the Uplifting Primer constitutes an Imperial view point is silly. It is pure propaganda, and is not intended to be anything different. The Imperium isn't stupid, they just know the value of "demonising" the enemy.

 

Pretty much the same reason BA fans don't like James Swallow, UM fans don't like Gulliman getting and yelling in KNF(Really don't get that one) and some DA fans don't like how callous El'Jonson is towards his own Legion.

 

Why? Because it goes against any long standing opinion that people have towards things? All it sounds like is people whinging when they don't get things the way they like it. And saying the retcon was because "he killed church members so he HAS to be Word Bearer" is a gross oversimplification, and an unfair one as well. To even call it a retcon is perhaps pushing it a bit. If you read the Periclitor story in the 3.5 codex, there is no way you would say that a Night Lord wrote that. Unless they chose to write it from the perspective of an atypical Night Lord, the tone of the chronicle is much more Word Bearer-y than anything else

[Kol Saresk]

I found a copy today and i did read it. The religious overtones were directed towards Periclitor himself. Not Chaos. It's also where I got the information about how he used a Cardinal's death to lead up to a civil war that the fluff calls the Tithe War. And the Tithe War is what lead directly to his ascension. And the only known member of the Ecclesiarchy to die in that conflict is the Cardinal of Bray who according to the exact article you, Forgeworld and myself quoted, Periclitor killed him to show that he and his warriors could attack anywhere, anytime. There was no religious reasons behind the Cardinal's death. Just major flexing of muscles. Not exactly Typical of the Word Bearers' M.O. in regards to the Imperial Cult.

 

And this little bit of fluff was written by a follower of Chaos. So it is obviously not an Imperial source so obviously not all the fluff is written from an Imperial POV. As Carelion already pointed out.

 

One could even argue that he sacrificed the other Ecclesiarchy members because he wanted power and the quickest way to get power from the warp is to make a meaningful, symbolic sacrifice. And I mean symbolic in the same sense that it was used in KNF: it has symbolism. Desecration speaks out to the warp because the warp is a reflection of us and desecration speaks out to us. Just betrayal could be used as a weapon to sow terror and discord, so too could desecrating what your enemy views as a holy sight. But look at the quotes. They are word for word copy and pasted. I'll take pics of my computer screen showing it if you want. Their biggest reasoning for him being a Word Bearer is his actions against the Ecclesiarchy.

 

And what I meant was that it simply just doesn't sit with the fans. Personally I like those little tidbits. Just like I like all of the ups and downs about the NL. From the fact that no one knows anything about the Haunter other than who he was and what he did to what exactly has become of the Legion as a generality. Are they thrill killers? Do they still seek to fulfill his wish for vengeance? Do they even care? Do they still enforce the taboo of worshipping the Chaos Gods while drawing on the power of the Warp? Etc etc etc. My only bit here is just what I said. You can google Periclitor. And you will find hundreds of pages of people who called him a Night Lord because they got that impression from the fluff. The only thing that ever calls him a Word Bearer is Imperial Armour Volume Nine. That's it. The only thing.

 

EDIT: Have you read any fluff concerning the Night Haunter from a Night Lord's POV? It always has an undertone of reverence. They thought of him as a god. They still call the Chaos gods gods and use them in their curses and praises. Even Talos and Zso Sahaal have done this. So religious overtones don't equal Word Bearers either. Nihm has read the same exact things and he already said that Periclitor doesn't add up to being a Word Bearer.

[ThisisJimmy]

But nothing says Night Lord either, in fact there was nothing definitive either way (until the IA). I don't agree that the fluff definitively points either way. To me (and I guess to whoever wrote that part of the IA), the tone of the fluff piece is more in line with a Word Bearer than a Night Lord. I'm not talking about their actions, as I feel they are mostly inconsequential to this argument as any Chaos follower is going to enjoy killing members of the Ecclesiarchy. Whilst a Night Lords opinion of the Night Haunter is incredibly reverential, he is their father. I haven't read anything from the perspective of the common Night Lord about a leader other than that and Talos' opinion of the Exalted. The piece of fluff we are talking about is completely void of any inkling of the paranoia that typifies the Legion, and the use of the term "preachings" is far more indicative of Word Bearers than Night Lords.

 

Oh, and by Imperial POV, I meant that any information they have, we see. So this chronicle could easily have fallen into the hands of some inquisitor, and that is how we are able to read it. But that is neither here nor there.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I never said it was a good argument (and in retrospect, using "all" was an incorrect thing to do) , but it is simply a way of explaining the vast dearth of evidence on some subjects. If the viewpoint we have is truly omniscient, then why are there things not known? To me, that gap in information sits better if that explanation is used. And saying that sources like the Uplifting Primer constitutes an Imperial view point is silly. It is pure propaganda, and is not intended to be anything different. The Imperium isn't stupid, they just know the value of "demonising" the enemy.

 

That may be so, but it still doesn't explain how the codices include things literally unknowable to an Imperial source. The reasons gaps are left is because they want the setting to remain mysterious. So, we've got a toss-up between an Imperial source knowing things it could not possibly ever know, or an omniscient narrator leaving things deliberately blank to let the players come up with their own answers. Which one is more believable? There is literally no way any Imperial could know about the Lion being in the Rock. No Imperial knows about the actual Realms of the Gods, and so on.

You've also got the fact that the codices are written in an entirely different style to the Imperial in-universe books that Black Library have released. There's absolutely no evidence for the books being written as in-universe Imperial documents, other than your excuse of "but they leave stuff blank", which has a far, far more likely excuse behind it.

[ThisisJimmy]

It's not my excuse, it is one that I have heard bandied around a number of places. Saying it's "my" excuse is belittling to my opinion. All I am trying to say on this subject (which isn't related to the thread) is that I prefer to think of most fluff coming from an Imperial standpoint. I like that train of thought because it is a much more logical excuse for gaps in information than an omniscient being not telling the whole story. I am well aware that it doesn't work in every single situation. At the start of this thread I was a bit more black and white about it, and have retracted that statement.

[Vesper]

I never said it was a good argument (and in retrospect, using "all" was an incorrect thing to do) , but it is simply a way of explaining the vast dearth of evidence on some subjects. If the viewpoint we have is truly omniscient, then why are there things not known? To me, that gap in information sits better if that explanation is used. And saying that sources like the Uplifting Primer constitutes an Imperial view point is silly. It is pure propaganda, and is not intended to be anything different. The Imperium isn't stupid, they just know the value of "demonising" the enemy.

 

QFT.

The BEST exemple is in the IA articles. Read the IW one, and then the IF one about the Iron Cage. In the first one, you'll find tactical interrogations from the narrator, who suppose Perturabo choosed to let Dorn live in shame. Then, in the IF one, you'll find IF fan drivel, saying they won big time, awesome to the max.

 

That may be so, but it still doesn't explain how the codices include things literally unknowable to an Imperial source.

 

Tales.

Draigo owning the warp ? Tales for children of the Imperium.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Tales.

Draigo owning the warp ? Tales for children of the Imperium.

 

Soo... the Lion being in the Rock, and the nature of the Realms of Chaos, or the history of Commorragh are "tales for the children of the Imperium" then?

I still haven't got a decent explanation of how anybody other than the Emperor in Imperial society could know all of those things. The vast majority of the Dark Angels Chapter don't even know Luther's still alive, and they're willing to kill Inquisitors to stop knowledge that the Fall even occurred getting out.

 

Still, I've dragged this topic off course enough. This is a debate for another place, but I doubt we'll convince each other.

[Nuclear Fridge]

His first appearance in the previous edition of Codex Chaos Space Marines doesn't specify an origin Legion, but his specific attacks upon, and corruption of, the Ecclesiarchy and their demesnes implies the tainted faith and evangelism of the Word Bearers, something that we built upon and revealed fully in the Howling Griffons background.

A bit too vague, as his tactics and the company he keeps go conflict with this. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to fluff but I find it a bit difficult to imagine a warband of Night Lords sworn to a Word Bearer (of all things) Daemon Prince.

 

Still, with the way the rigid fluff boundaries of old have been softened in recent years, it could happen, I guess.

 

Huh... If Necrons can be ret-conned from remorseless, silent killers into slightly senile empire builders with the 'chatty dictator' disadvantage, anything is possible.

 

I can't find anything that actually says which Legion Periclitor is aligned with. I suppose this is a case of 'take a guess'...

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah the problem is if you go by google, there are over thirty pages of fans who took a guess that he was a Night Lord. And White Dwarf apparently took the route that he hangs with Night Lords. Nihm says there is a short story published by GW that says he is a Night Lord. I don't doubt him, but I can't find it. And then Forgeworld took the guess he was a Word Bearer.

 

And well, the Necrons needed a retcon. Part of the point of 40k is creating your own character. Most Necron fans I know where doing fluff with the retcon before there ever was a retcon.

[Brother Nihm]

Nihm says there is a short story published by GW that says he is a Night Lord. I don't doubt him, but I can't find it.

Sorry for being unclear, what I meant was,

 

There used to be a short-story about Acerbus on GW's website in the Chaos section, which was later rehashed and then used (in the codex) as the fluff for Periclitor.

I saved it in text format back in the early-mid 2000's and here it is for the purpose of this discussion.

 

THE PATH TO CHAOS

 

THE LORD ACERBUS

 

The Daemon Prince referred to as The Lord Acerbus began life a mortal man, but his journey to Daemonhood began at an early age amidst the dark and murderous streets of Nostramo Quintus. Acerbus was born of the benighted world which gave rise to the Night Lords Legion, and for one who grew to adulthood among such barbarity and murder, it was inevitable that he would be inducted into the Legion whose very name was to become synonymous with terror.

 

Konrad Curze, ‘Night Haunter’, the dark and brooding Primarch of the Night Lords led his Legion on campaign after campaign against the enemies of Mankind, reclaiming vast swathes of the galaxy in the name of the Emperor. Throughout this crusade Acerbus fought at his Primarch’s side, learning first-hand the value of terror as a weapon. Learning from his Primarch, Acerbus became a sinister figure with an affinity with the darker side of the human soul, and little interest in the lofty ideals aspired to by his brethren in such Legions as the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists.

 

During the Great Crusade, the Primarchs and their Legions performed many acts of heroism, but during this time, the Night Lords operated largely alone, launching terror attacks and lightning raids that defeated the enemies of Mankind with swift, brutal effectiveness. This method of warfare defined the entire character of the Night Lords: not for them the methodical planning of the Imperial Fists, or the cautious surgical strike of the Raven Guard. The Night Lords came to revel in the death and fear they left in their wake, and it was during these gruesome times that the fate of the Legion, its Primarch, and of Acerbus was truly set.

 

The list of atrocities committed by the Night Lords during the Great Crusade is a long and sad one. Undoubtedly many terrible enemies of Humanity were defeated, but for every cultist, alien and rebel justly slain in battle, a thousand innocents also lost their lives. Upon Juno IV Acerbus led an assault on a xenophile cult that had infiltrated the world’s government, and by the end of the campaign over half a million civil servants, militia volunteers and civilians lay slaughtered. On Plaga Secondus Acerbus enacted Night Haunter’s order to virus bomb the primary continent in order to destroy a single Chaos worshipping cult; such a warning would serve to inspire sheer horror at the mere mention of the Legion’s name.

 

Such barbarity in the name of the Emperor could not go unchallenged, and it was as Acerbus was leading an assault company during the bloody Tsagualsa campaign that the Legion sided with Horus and the Horus Heresy began. With all constraints removed and all pretence of fighting for the good of humanity evaporated, Acerbus and his brethren were unleashed upon the galaxy in a storm of wanton bloodshed and murder.

 

The carnage of the Heresy proved to be the crucible for Acerbus. While Night Haunter became withdrawn and sullen, plagued by his prophetic visions of his own end, Acerbus revelled in the mayhem of a galactic civil war of unprecedented proportions. Acerbus led his company against those Legions who remained loyal to the Emperor, glorying in the wanton destruction unleashed in his name. When the end of the Heresy came, Acerbus and his followers were pushing towards Terra, and when word reached him that Horus had failed, Acerbus is said to have called upon the undivided power of Chaos to aid him in his retribution. Chaos heard his plea, and answered.

 

By the time Night Haunter met his self-prophesied death at the hands of an Imperial Assassin, Acerbus had the blessing of Chaos, and led a sizable contingent of Night Lords. Acerbus and his warband became a plague to the Imperium, and in the millennium following the Heresy was responsible for the fall of over 30 Imperial worlds. Acerbus conducted these attacks through no motive other than to sow abject fear in his victims, and to offer their souls to the power of Chaos Undivided.

 

In the year 832.M33 Acerbus committed his most heinous act to date, and received the ultimate reward for it: his elevation to Daemonhood. Gathering the largest force of Night Lords to congregate under one leader since the Heresy, Acerbus turned his attentions towards the sanctuary world of Castile V. The world was home to an Adepta Sororitas convent, from which sisters of the Orders Hospitaller launched their missions of mercy into surrounding sectors. The Sisters of Penance had recently evacuated the population of the nearby Antilles system following the onset of a terrible plague, and those most in need of their care were housed in and around the world’s capital city in their thousands. Acerbus and his army fell upon these innocents in the bloodiest massacre ever seen in that sector and in a single night over two million innocent souls were offered up to Chaos.

 

As dawn broke the next morning, Acerbus stood atop the ruins of the Adepta Sororitas convent and howled his triumph as he received the gift of Daemonhood and was transformed into the hideous creature he is today.

 

Acerbus continues to this day to pose a terrible threat to the Imperium, and many Inquisitorial missions have been despatched to assassinate him. Each one has ended with the death of a valuable Inquisitor, whose soul Acerbus has offered to the insidious power of Chaos Undivided.

Take note of the dates, places and his actions, they mostly coincide with what we're told Periclitor has done.

I am guessing that someone at GW either made a mistake, or forgot to tell us that these guys are one and the same. (which I personally think is unlikely)

[Kol Saresk]

Oh like I said, I didn't doubt you that it existed. Just that there are no more copies of it on the internet. But thanks for presenting it though. :)

[the emperor is scottish]

This arguments been going on since the story was published in said codex. I remember reading it at the time thinking it was cool and giving it no more thought but I kept seeing things crop up in forums saying he was a night lord and wondering how the hell people jumped to this conclusion.

 

I'd be happy to say periclitor was a word bearer and let the tired argument rest.

Not to mention I'd prefer it if he was rather than think a Night lord has lowered himself into daemon hood and become a bitch of the gods.

 

The night lords reverence should be held for the night haunter and night haunter alone. The night lords barely respect one another and seem to plot and scheme against each others deaths and down falls. Talos seemingly being a small exception and even then he's not everyone's favourite person lol

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, not every Night Lord respected the Night Haunter by the end. Secondly, the Night Lord stereotype is just that, a stereotype, not an unbreakable law that all Night Lords must follow. Just take a look at the Exalted, Acerbus or Ruven for Night Lords who are entirely willing to barter their bodies and souls to the Ruinous Powers.

[the emperor is scottish]

I think in void stalker Talos basically says they both hate and love their father just as he hated and loved them. I think for Talos this is especially true where as for the axe man his lust for power left him caring for little els but himself and zou'shal(sp) still revered his father.

Yeah there is obviously night lords who fall to the power chaos can bring but just look how other night lords look apon them and the disdain they feel towards them. Also you just need to take a brows through the forum for people starting night lords to see that the majority of the time they want to make it fluff orientated I.e no daemons or marks. So the night lords are not only seen as more of a 'renegade' force by games workshop but also the fans.

[Lord_Caerolion]

My point is, a stereotype will not ever be utterly true for every individual that it "describes". The stereotypical Night Lord shuns all faith, but in a Legion of tens of thousands, you cannot tell me that every single Night Lord follows that stereotype. The vast majority will, to a greater or lesser extent, but there are certainly Night Lords who the stereotype doesn't apply to at all.

[the emperor is scottish]

Lol I'm agreeing with you man. There's bound to be night lords, singular or entire war bands fallen to worshiping the chaos gods like the pathetic word bearers but hey there will always be weak links.