The 13th Goat Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 So I just finished The Serpent Beneath story the Primarchs collection, and had a question; Is it me, or is Omegon gonna turn on Alpharius, and if so who is the Chaos affiliated one? I got a little confused at the end there.... Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
esinhorn Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Here's what I think I think Omegon is the good one. Alpharuis will turn to chaos. What I want to know is what is the third set of armor? Ultramarine? There is definietly going to be a split IMO,by the phase where O says they do not all call themselves Alpharuis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3053928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Yeah, I think Omegon is the good guy - By sending Ranko on the mission to destroy the tower, he enabled Terra to be able to contact the White Scars and inform them of the heresy (to which the were totally unaware apparently) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidice Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I agree with the above post. Also, I thought the shorts were amazing (except for the one with ferrus =/). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Could be the other way round? You never know with the AL. Schemes within schemes! Be interesting to see if it was Alpharius who was killed by Big Bob during the Scouring or if it was Omegon who was killed but who played the part of 'Alpharius'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Could be the other way round? You never know with the AL. Schemes within schemes! Be interesting to see if it was Alpharius who was killed by Big Bob during the Scouring or if it was Omegon who was killed but who played the part of 'Alpharius'. I've been wary of fluff depicting the Alpha Legion and its Primarchs, ever since I read this review: You know, having considered this post on my drive home, I'd actually have to say Alpharius' corruption is the worst to be depicted so far. Horus' took the better part of two books to move through, involved a near-death experience and multiple points of outside intervention. Fulgrim's requires the entirety of his novel, his slow turn away from his ideals manifesting at the beginning and his actual corruption starting to seep in halfway through. Alpharius' takes one bloody chapter, and it goes something like this: CABAL: The galaxy's :cussed. You're going to have to turn against everything you believe in if you want to save any of it. ALPHARIUS: Okay. It's the most retarded betrayal seen in the entire Heresy series. Alpharius barely even stops to consider the possibility that this alliance of xenos (his collected enemies) might be duping him and instead rapidly (almost gleefully) turns on the 670th expedition and wipes it out (and I have to say, either the gunner on the Beta had the 'automatic headshot' option switched, or those Imperial ships were made out of paper mache for all the fight they put up). The end of the book is like an insult to the reader, and on reflection, it seems to me like Dan Abnett read the snatch "the Alpha Legion often uses Imperialistic battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" to mock and frustrate their opponents' and decided hey, wouldn't it be cool if they actually meant it? and began laying down his outline without giving it the following thirty seconds of thought needed to tear the whole concept down again. This made me stop reading Legion before I reached 100 pages. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 White Scars Do we get to see or hear something about the unfairly absent WS ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Could be the other way round? You never know with the AL. Schemes within schemes! Be interesting to see if it was Alpharius who was killed by Big Bob during the Scouring or if it was Omegon who was killed but who played the part of 'Alpharius'. I've been wary of fluff depicting the Alpha Legion and its Primarchs, ever since I read this review: Edit: Got the wrong end of the schtick ;) At this point, i'm just putting an idea out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 White Scars Do we get to see or hear something about the unfairly absent WS ? They are blissfully unaware of the Heresy and are currently fighting Orks on Chondax - By destroying the tower, the warp is calmed enough for communications from Terra to get to them and vice versa - Next Alpha book should hopefully be Alpha vs the Scars Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 This made me stop reading Legion before I reached 100 pages. Whilst your quoted text does have valid points, i think it exaggerates the decision. The Primarch's desicion was not a snap train of thought, and i felt the entire book help the suspension of disbelief quite nicely. I would also point out Dan got told what GW wanted with Legion. They always wanted that "were they, won't they" aspect with the AL. Legion is a good book, one of the better HH novels. Dismissing it because someone else didn't like it and wrote fairly inaccurate take on events is a little naive; although the same could be said for reading spoilers 100 pages in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3055978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I agree with the Goat. Legion was my favorite Heresy novel to date. Extremely well written and full of the sort of mind-twisting games that you would expect from a book about a Legion that specializes in subterfuge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3056007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I would also point out Dan got told what GW wanted with Legion. They always wanted that "were they, won't they" aspect with the AL. Compared to the reasons the Lion didn't trust Guilliman (noted here), it seems the Cabal was the wrong instrument with which to raise those questions. Perhaps several dialogue scenes between Alpharius/Omegon and those Primarchs whose loyalties were hidden, e.g., Perturabo (before the Drop Site Massacre revealed his true colors). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3056622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge The Weak Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I liked this story, all the way through I questioned if it was omegon, guess my hunch played out well. I think it was a waste of ranko mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3056630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I thought the scene in Legion where Alpharius goes with the flow was in keeping with his character. Give the cabal what they want, agree to their schemes, infiltrate and learn what they are not telling him and make his own decisons later. When Alpharius turns on the cabal in delivernace lost shows his capitulation was not as easy as indicated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3057848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I like the way the story just raises more questions than it answers... What is the third paradox? Is Alpharius aware of the third paradox? Is Alpharius aware of Omegons actions (dont forget that little out of place trust speach before anyone jumps on that) ? Who or what side is Omegon on? What significance does the armour have? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3058125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineswords Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 My appraisal, analysis and unresolved issues from The Serpent Beneath. THE SERPENT BENEATH by Rob Sanders, from THE PRIMARCHS edited by Christian Dunn Synopsis Primarch Omegon of the Alpha Legion initiates ‘Operatus Five-Hydra’ - a mission in which a specialised team of Legionnaires and operatives led by Omegon infiltrate their own Legion, to identify and execute a spy supplying the Imperium with intelligence regarding a powerful weapon bequeathed by the Cabal to the Alpha Legion to further the cause of Warmaster Horus. Timeline of Events Sander’s use of the time stamps have been arranged in chronological order, as the detailed planning sessions jumps back and forth in with the Tenebrae action in real time. Ω1 indicates background context for the Tenebrae action, including Ranko’s planning sessions with the infiltration team at the request of Omegon. Ω2 is largely concerned with the Tenebrae action itself, whilst Ω3 shows the formation of the infiltration force prior to the action. It is reasonable to assume the time stamp is marked by day, followed by hour, on a non-Terran standard timeframe. It would be reasonable to assume that Omegon’s set up of the operation took the best part of a year, with the detailed planning session lasting 2 days, the action taking 3 days including the infiltration time, and Omegon’s resolution occurring three and a half months after the installation was destroyed. On the Upsilon Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/-806.44// Omegon’s conversation with Echion and subsequent requests with Ranko Phemus IV – Tharsis Heights Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω3/-734.29// Squad Sigma’s persecution of the White Scars Drusilla Hive World – Hive Chorona Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω3/-633.19// Alpha Legion saves Xalmagundi from the Sisters of Silence San Sabrinus - De Sota City Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/-417.85// ‘Omegon’s’ capture of Auguramus On the Upsilon Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/-216.82// Beginning of detailed planning session Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/-215.65// Detailed planning session with the infiltration team Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/-214.77// Detailed planning session with the infiltration team Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/-214.12// Detailed planning session with the infiltration team Tenebrae Action Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/002.68// Argolid boarding torpedo enters Demiurg Trojan Asteroid Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/003.53/ Infiltration team on the Trojan Asteroid Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/004.21// Infiltration team breaks into Tenebrae installation Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/004.66// ‘Omegon’s’ interrogation and execution of Echion Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/004.89// Height of the conflict during the operation, Janic’s counter attack underway Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω2/005.17// Tenebrae installation action reaches its final phase and resolution On the Beta Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/138.11// Omegon’s encounter with Alpharius Operatus Five-Hydra: Elapsed Time Ω1/138.28// Omegon’s personal reflection of The Third Paradox Revelations & Questions Omegon was not actually present at the Operatus Five-Hydra Tenebrae action; ‘Omegon’ was in fact Sheed Ranko, whose stature and physical resemblance to the twin primarchs’ was more pronounced as established in Legion. Ranko’s deception was absolutely convincing to both the Legion and the reader by the ingestion of Omegon’s blood and subsequent assimilation of the twin primarchs’ memories and temporary attributes and abilities through Ranko’s Omophagea; The Alpha Legion infiltration unit led by Ranko was a suicide mission. Ranko was asked to make the ultimate sacrifice, and by doing so, knowingly led the infiltration team to their deaths through absolute destruction of the Tenabrae facility by altering its trajectory into the local star; Both Librarian Echion and Janic were simply expendable pawns, as were the infiltration team, both of whom were loyal to the Legion and were turned against each other on Omegon’s whim ‘There seems little point in introductions,’ Omegon said. ‘We all know who we are.’Auguramus seemed vaguely amused. ‘I thought you all called yourselves “Alpharius”,’ he said, his microvox held to his throat. ‘Times change,’ Omegon replied coldly. No one made any further comment. This is both a definitive statement that indicates a change in the Legion’s policy regarding their use of anonymity as an offensive tactic. It is unclear whether or not this is a sign of rebellion from those within the Legion who are more sympathetic to Omegon’s goals than they are to Alpharius; or whether it is simply a directive that has come from the twin Primarchs that has become Legion policy after the events presented in Abnett’s Legion He had tasted remembrance and come to know the secrets of his gene-sire: early days spent by the twins on their distant homeworld, scheming their way to supremacy; the paradoxical horror of the alien Acuity; the gradual realisation of what would be required of each of them in the years still to come… Ranko had borne the burden of this offering and had done what his primarch had asked of him a thousand times before. He had taken his place. He had acted like, spoken like, all thought like his primarch. Another instrumental detail, which both confirms and contradicts earlier mentions of the twin primarchs origin. Common canon states that the primarchs’ homeworld was never ‘publicly revealed’; Whom is Ranko ‘remembering’ regarding the twin primarchs ‘scheming their way to supremacy’? The ‘gradual realisation’ is probably the single biggest revelation of the Legion’s motives and sets the course for the rest of the Heresy and beyond. Despite the paradoxical nature of the Acuity, the twins are actually in a good position to ideologically perpetuate the each side of the paradox presented to them to their logical conclusion, so long as the goals of the Legion are achieved. In effect, the Legion could feasibly divide and follow both courses of action outlined by the Acuity and hedge their bets on the outcome - thus creating their own agenda that serves both Warmaster Horus, The Emperor, and at the same time, neither. Furthermore, it appears that the twin primarchs are aware of this, and Omegon in particular has sown the seeds of a future schism within the Alpha Legion with the Tenebrae action, by lying to his own brother outright regarding the resolution of the ‘problem’ ‘I ask nothing of you,’ Ranko told them honestly. Then he repeated, ‘What does your primarch ask of you?’Setebos and the legionnaires looked at one another. The sergeant nodded. ‘Everything.’ This running theme of Legionnaire’s giving the twin primarchs ‘everything’ seems to further indicate the Legion places its loyalty in the goals of the primarchs, over everything else including the Legion itself. ‘We do,’ Alpharius said. ‘Perhaps it’s Malcador, or the Angels of Caliban – somebody has gotten to the Tenebrae installation. We must accept that and move on. We must read the moves ahead of time, and position the fleet to the greatest advantage. Dorn will recall the White Scars, and the Khan’s loyalty is still firm. If the Warmaster is to succeed then we cannot allow the V Legion to reach Terra. Are we in agreement, brother?’ There is a strong implication that Omegon orchestrated a fictitious leak of information and lied to Alpharius outright to further his own (as yet unknown) agenda. Alpharius simply trusted his twin to resolve the problem, knowing that the destruction of the Tenebrae installation would possibly allow the previously isolated White Scars to re-group and accepts this as foreseen consequence. This singular action has huge implications for the course of the war, as the White Scars became instrumental in Terra’s subsequent defence during the Siege of Terra; Questions Why did Omegon choose Sheed Ranko over the other captains? It is established that Ranko bears a more significant bearance to the primarch’s due to his height, but it is implied that Ranko had ingested Omegon’s blood many times before; which means that Ranko would have been aware of Omegon’s conflicting thoughts regarding the future of the Legion; Whenever he closed his eyes he found the horror of inevitablility waiting forhim – the scalding truths that the Acuity had presented to him and Alpharius. The Third Paradox... What is the Third Paradox? A paradox is seemingly absurd, contradictory statement or proposition that on further investigation holds to be true. It is reasonable to assume that the first two paradoxes are the ones presented by Gahet in Legion: The First Paradox: If the Emperor is victorious, stagnation will take hold in the Imperium - over the course of thousands of years Chaos will gradually be allowed to fester in decay and the Primordial Annihilator achieves ascendancy and the galaxy ends. The Second Paradox: Should the Warmaster achieve victory, a ‘brief’ century or two of violence will end the human race and the Primordial Annihilator is denied. The races of the galaxy live on due to the destruction of the human race. The Third Paradox: The Alpha Legion follows a course of action that engenders the first two paradoxes, and therefore fulfil both and neither simultaneously - The Alpha Legion creates its own agenda, demonstrated further by Omegon’s theft of the corrupted Raven Guard Raptor Gene-tech and rejecting the Cabal’s agenda outright. However, in doing so, a schism forms within the Legion as the twin primarchs’ begin to differ ideologically on which course of action to follow. Ranko is aware of Omegon’s personal conflict on following a course of action that is not unified with Alpharius’. This statement seems to hold true, with this statement in Deliverance Lost: As they had done so many times before, Alpharius and his Legion had stepped upon a narrow path, playing a part to two opposing sides to achieve a third, more desirable outcome. (Deliverance Lost) OR, is the The First Paradox the Acuity’s vision, The Second Paradox that it is possible that Alpha Legion can create a more desirable outcome for themselves by serving both sides at the same time, but by doing so, the Third Paradox is that the Second Paradox can only be achieved by conscientiously splitting apart - with each Primarch pursuing the same goal through different means? “Beside it, covered by a loose shroud, was his other suit of armour.To the casual eye, it was plain and unadorned.” This is especially interesting. In Legion and Deliverance Lost, we know that Alpharius’ armour looks like that of any other trooper. Omegon, like Alpharius also has access to operational plate that looks like that of a Legionnaire, and also has access to a darkened stealth suit. So what is this? What is the significance of the plain-ness of the armour? This particular suit of armour was the same as that issued to many of his legionaries, bearing no symbols that would mark out Alpharius as anything other than an ordinary warrior of the Alpha Legion. Painted with several coats of blue over the bare ceramite, it was the third such suit Alpharius had possessed on board the Alpha, though he had others on several different vessels, each identical to this. (Deliverance Lost) An early chapter in Deliverance Lost confirms that Alpharius actually owns several operational plate armour. It is implied then the Omegon’s other suit may in fact be a stolen or exact replica of his brother primarch’s armour, for reasons yet unknown. The key phrase is ‘casual eye’. Legion used a device to differentiate between Legionnaires who looked the same through careful analysis through trans-human or highly trained visual appraisal. Omegon’s plain and unadorned armour implies that it looks like any of the battle plate that his twin would use, and only a trans-human inspection would reveal its significance. ‘Let him see the fallen fruit, sitting warm and inviting in the afternoon sun,’ Omegon whispered to the empty battle plate. ‘And let me be the serpent beneath. Hidden and waiting to strike.’ To whom is Omegon referring to with ‘him’? Alpharius? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3058264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineswords Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Double post. Sorry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3058266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Excellent work Nineswords, thank you so much for the post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3058405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Or the 3rd Paradox is that Omegon has thought that the Cabal has lied to the AL and that they have fooled his legion into siding with Horus and that all they can now do is follow the path they are commited to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3058790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearship Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 wow, nice post..thanks for your thoughts :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3059705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagbenektelse Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Perhaps Omegon was a sacrifice to trap Guilliman on Eskrador. There has to be a reason that Omegon is always playing second fiddle to Alpharius and likewise uses the phrase: "What does your primarch expect of you?" Perhaps the goal was to lure Guilliman into a trap where the Alpha Legion 'lost a limb' but struck off the head of their foe. I am not particularly a fan of the UM but, credit where credit is due, only a notable sacrifice would lure RG into showing up personally. And then despite not being able to capitalize on the event, the Alpha Legion would still be the only organization in existence acting directly under the commands of a Primarch. All the others are divorced from reality or dead(hounded by their enemies). Personally I would have loved to see an ambush with Alpharius and Omegon taking down RG but that would likely have resulted in a teleport escape or some such. With those ideas stated there is even more fodder for the conspiracy buffs. RG was killed and replaced by Omegon. Or they didnt really want RG dead just sidelined for an indeterminate amount of time. That way when everything comes crumbling down the Imperium gets a reboot al la Ultramar. Anyway good times Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3062247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Only thing I'd question in terms of assumptions made by Nineswords is the idea that Ranko has been given the Primarch's blood to sample before. I don't think that was implied in the text, and seems unlikely to me in terms of either twin permitting anyone, even their most trusted lieutenant, such insight into their personal history and thinking. Omegon only did so in this case, I believe, because he was sending Ranko to his death - hence the revealed information would be terminated with him. Edit: their/there error - embarressing! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3062436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineswords Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hey Aegnor! My interpretation there was based on this quote: Ranko had borne the burden of this offering and had done what his primarch had asked of him a thousand times before. He had taken his place. He had acted like, spoken like, all thought like his primarch. It's unclear and simply implied that Ranko may have ingested Omegon's blood. However, you raise a good point that the intimate drinking ceremony may have happened for the simple reason that Ranko knew he was going to his death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3062464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hey mate - I thought your analysis was really good by the way. You may well be right, but my interpretation was that impersonating Omegon (and presumably Alpharius) was something Ranko had done a thousand times before, but that "bearing the burden of this offering" (eg drinking the blood) was not necessarily a part of that. That makes sense to me for the reason I said before (the exposing their secrets to someone else thing), but also in the reading of that sentence - he had borne that offering (possibly for the first time) and done hat he had been asked to do a thousand times before (stand in for his boss). Equally, I don't think Ranko agreed to it because he accept he was going to die. Omegon only offered it because he knew Ranko would die soon afterwards. The reason for this new step being taken, even though Ranko had impersonated him before, was that this time he had to fool his own legion-members who actually knew the real Omegon, unlike the previous occasions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3062498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineswords Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Fair play Aegnon, you have some really good points there and it means I'll have to re-read the story again (not that I'm complaining, mind!). Your interpretation makes a lot of sense! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/251771-the-serpent-beneath-questions/#findComment-3062906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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