Grey Knight problems

[Jsm311]

Well, first off, this is my 3rd post in a row. I guess i'm really keeping this part of the forum alive...

 

Anyway. Down to business. In my last gaming match (a 'friendly' tournament amongst friends) I had the misfortune of facing the grey knights. He went first and proceeded to spread his army all across the board utilizing the 'warp quake' rule. Just in case anyone is unfamiliar with that rule it basically means that any deep strike within 12 inches of any grey knight unit mishaps. And as per a very broken rule he would have been able to 'juggle' my daemons, in short defeating the army before they even arrived. After find out this rule I looked him in the eye and announced that the daemons had decided not to show up. After a small argument he agreed to grow a soul and not use this rule so we could play a game.

 

So before i continue. I just wanted to ask if there was anyway at all around this? I was playing with a friend so i was able to get him to not use the rule, but what do I do if I'm at a tournament? Do I just walk away every time? The grey knights are already stacked against daemons with out this rule. Either way Games Workshop seriously needs to look at this incredibly broken rule. It is almost a game breaking rule as no daemon player could get past a grey knight player if he uses that rule. Personally I think that the daemons need a new way of entering the game. Is jumping out of a warp really deep striking in the first place? Its not like the warp opens up in space and the daemons get booted out to fall onto the planet. Personally I think that there shouldn't even be scatter. Basically it comes down to the fact that the chaos daemons NEED a new way of entering the game. At least the warp quake rule needs to be fixed. Or else i fear that the daemons might simply disappear. Personally I hope they go the way of the necrons (with the old phase out rules) and the daemons get worked into a fully functioning army. You really think that they would work on this army as 90% of the players i see play as grey knights or space wolves. Have a heart for the actually interesting and diverse armies GW...

 

To carry on with my story, i got solidly stomped by the grey knights. Skulltaker ended up being my mvp (just had to meantion that... he's my favorite model that i have built). Is there anyway at all to counter the very stacked grey knights army? As I meantioned in my previous post, I'm building Angorn and An'ggrath. So should i just try to sneak them into my 2000pt games? I imagine it would be overkill then (kind of like bringing a gun to a knife fight). I simply cannot think of a way to legally beat the grey knights as I cannot put all of my faith in that my opponent will have all bad rolls one game. In anyone opinion, would it be better to have a fast fleet army (fiends/seekers/etc), a grunt army (plaguebearers/bloodletters/etc) or a monsterzilla army (as many big guys as i can fit, 2 blood thirsters/3 princes/etc) to face down the grey knights?

 

Thanks in advance for any help for tactics. I also look forward to seeing other people's opinion on the 'warp quake' rule

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

I looked him in the eye and announced that the daemons had decided not to show up. After a small argument he agreed to grow a soul and not use this rule so we could play a game.

 

You are my hero.

 

Let's see if I can help. I'll share some input. I have no idea of your playstyle but from every demon player I've lost against, I'd say that you need to just laugh at GKs and deploy away from them.

 

Better yet, do this for every opponent. Then laugh.

 

Except Flamers. They need to be close.

 

Honestly, I am a little surprised your opponent even has access to Warp Quake. Let's trade opponents. I am so sick of purifer spam and paladins.

 

My answer for Gks and tournaments in general would be the following. Note that I do not play demons though I have vast experience playing against them, losing against them, and now ultimately winning every game against them (ONLY because people deploy close to 3+ squads of thousand sons, plasma, gift of chaos, and melta guns):

 

-Seekers. Deepstrike Far away, close the distance under fire. Slaughter.

-Fateweaver drops with Bloodcrushers. Drop from a distance, close the distance.

-Plaguebearers. Drop at a distance. Go to ground, threaten objectives held by Plaguebearers with Bloodcrushers.

 

:]

 

Also, the warp quake thing has been debated.

 

I can honestly say (as an impartial and neutral party) that the juggle thing can work both ways, and that people have valid arguments for both. Personally, I lean towards the "yeahhhhhh you can't just keep placing them after the mishap" team, though I would never truly fight it with a passion. If I had to, I'd use this: There's a reason ork boss poles can't be used EVERY time they fail a morale check.. What if you never fail? There is NO EVIDENCE of anything else besides Warp Quake in 40k that can result in indefinite dice rolling.

 

So I guess I did kind of fight it, right there.

 

Anyways, if you want my HONEST advice about tournaments and warp quake juggle, I'd advise you to smile and let someone replace your things and watch them continue to mishap, resulting in a low sportsmanship score from you. My advice is to agree on the warp quake juggle beforehand. Look them in the eye and tell them that if they place you in the Warp Quake again, you will not want to play. If they use it as a valid tactic, it is nothing more than exploitation and I wouldn't even finish the game. I'd go get lunch and then come back for a different game.

 

-Ah-a

[The thousand son]

Hello

 

Juggle or not, just dont arrive within 12" of a model who has warp quake active. At best its 1/3 that the unit dies, with juggle it drops to 1/2. And even if they dont die they either dont arrive or gets placed somewhere bad. So dont do it.

 

And if you fear the Grey knights, bring a couple of units of hounds. That will make the grey knights cry cheese right back at you.

[forudd]

A good idea would be to try a few soul grinders I've found that GK players have trouble dealing with these. upgrade them with the large blast template deep strike them about 12 inches away un load the large blast and then try to assualt with them.

 

-Flamers a good choice if you can get them close enough. There flamers can eat through everything GKs bring and they have a good save so they can still take a bloter round to the face and take a few turns in assualt to get rid of giving your heavy hitters time to move in.

 

-as said above hounds are a really good choice. They can tie up stuff for the entire game but don't expect them to killing that much.

 

-bloodletters a good choice for troops since can get through that pesky armour save.

 

-for your HQ probably a bloodthirster would do the trick. just don't get it stuck in with anything that has a deamon bane weapon. skulltaker also fits the bill nicley being able to one shot there termies is always nice.

 

as for the juggle take it with a grain of salt hope that you can win the initiative and deep strike close if you can't do that then just deep strike far away and hope you don't scatter in to it. also take a look down in the offical rules section theres a disscussion about how legal warp quake juggle is.

[Brother Ambroz]

Use alot of khornate stuff with Blessing of the Blood God. 2+ invulnerable save in CC against almost everything in the GK codex.

[Black_Crusader]

hey there, i am playing daemons and i have faced grey knights a few times.

The way i see it with the two codexes is that there are some match ups that you simply can't win as it stands and there are others that even if you do good, a bad scatter dice roll or a reserve roll can make the game one sided.

 

I faced that Draigowing thing where it is almost 100% that you will lose in a Kill point game no matter how much you can stay away from the paladis but i prefer it to other grey knight play styles because in objective games you can do quite a lot to counter it even with daemons.

 

As for the warp quake thing i never saw a grey knight in tournament setting comming with a warp quake bubble that can cover the entire board. So when i do face this kind of opponent i roll my big guys first way along with a small bearer squad and an icon then prey to the chaos gods to get the first wave!!!

If first wave comes you are looking at a wide spread grey knight army with best shooting at 30'' threat (move 6 and fire 24) so your big guys can survive then start killing the enemy units from the closer to the icon while your reserves arrive at the rally point. A warp quake can become a double edge sword if it can't kill you completly turn one (again i repeat never seen in tournament setting)

 

Soul grinders are good choices as are Kairos (always is) or a couple of Thirsters.

Big units of flamers next to Kairos will work nice unless you get assaulted by an assault vehicle or get shoot by Draigos Paladins, things that you should try and stay away.

Fiends can arrive near an icon while the opponent focuses on the first big arrivals and then get a charge against transports to limit the enemy mobility or tie up (and hopefully even destroying) the psydreads.

 

My opinion on the blessing is that it isn't worth it anywhere except for the Bloodthirster and skulltaker (who has it in profile)

The flesh hounds are no good especially in tournaments and even against friendly grey knights they can simply shoot them before they charge and keep the weak squads on transports when the hounds get close. (by weak i mean they can't kill the hounds fast enough not that the hounds could win a combat, unless they are a lot wich can be an even greater waste o points)

 

I 'll give you a couple of lists i happened to use against grey knights, first was at a tourni the other a friendly match. Both went pretty good, i lost the tourni match and won the friendly one.

 

1850 points (1848) played kill points mission

 

HQ

275 Bloodthirster might, Blessing

275 Bloodthirster might, Blessing

 

Elite

210 Flamers x6

180 Fiends x6

 

Troop

130 Plaguebearers x7 icon

130 Plaguebearers x7 icon

128 bloodletters x8

 

Heavy support

160 Soulgrinder phlegm

160 Soulgrinder phlegm

200 Daemon prince tzeentch hide, bolt, breath

 

My opponent had terminators with librarian, storm raven with henchmen, more henchmen with Coteaz an interseptor squad and some strike squads with razorbacks if i recall.

 

second list i fought against Draigo wing at 1500 as you can imagine there wasn't much except Draigo and his Paladins. (played one objective each)

1498

HQ

333 Kairos

175 Skulltaker on juggernaut

130 blue scribes

 

Elite

210 Flamers

180 Fiends

235 Bloodcrushers x5, icon, fury

 

Troops

130 Plaguebearers x7 icon

105 Plaguebearers x7

[shortysl]

If they use it as a valid tactic, it is nothing more than exploitation and I wouldn't even finish the game.

 

-Ah-a

 

If it's a valid tactic, how is it also exploitation?! Would the OP have complained if he'd gotten the first turn and hammered the Grey Knights all over the place? The Most Important Rule is that both players have fun so i understand the OP's frustration but threatening to quit the game because you don't like a rule smacks of Jervis Johnson's The Face. You could have had a dice off to determine the function of Warp Quake for that one game.

 

And yes, i'm aware that as a Grey Knight player i'm bound to attract a lot of comments to the effect of me being beardy or cheesy or just as bad, but those detractors would in fact be wrong.

[Brother Ambroz]

If they use it as a valid tactic, it is nothing more than exploitation and I wouldn't even finish the game.

 

-Ah-a

 

If it's a valid tactic, how is it also exploitation?! Would the OP have complained if he'd gotten the first turn and hammered the Grey Knights all over the place? The Most Important Rule is that both players have fun so i understand the OP's frustration but threatening to quit the game because you don't like a rule smacks of Jervis Johnson's The Face. You could have had a dice off to determine the function of Warp Quake for that one game.

 

And yes, i'm aware that as a Grey Knight player i'm bound to attract a lot of comments to the effect of me being beardy or cheesy or just as bad, but those detractors would in fact be wrong.

 

It's an auto-loss with warp quake for daemon players. How is that not exploitation?

 

Black Crusader - There's a thread here in the daemon forum about seekers vs hounds and it has actually made me change my mind about hounds. Check it out here.

[Black_Crusader]

Black Crusader - There's a thread here in the daemon forum about seekers vs hounds and it has actually made me change my mind about hounds. Check it out here.

 

I believe in a tournament environment where fiends can do everything better than hounds you can't find a spot for the hounds. You simply need the points for other stuff and even against grey knights the fiends can do better all around.

[shortysl]

If they use it as a valid tactic, it is nothing more than exploitation and I wouldn't even finish the game.

 

-Ah-a

 

If it's a valid tactic, how is it also exploitation?! Would the OP have complained if he'd gotten the first turn and hammered the Grey Knights all over the place? The Most Important Rule is that both players have fun so i understand the OP's frustration but threatening to quit the game because you don't like a rule smacks of Jervis Johnson's The Face. You could have had a dice off to determine the function of Warp Quake for that one game.

 

And yes, i'm aware that as a Grey Knight player i'm bound to attract a lot of comments to the effect of me being beardy or cheesy or just as bad, but those detractors would in fact be wrong.

 

It's an auto-loss with warp quake for daemon players. How is that not exploitation?

 

No it isn't at all. A daemon player has an equal chance of winning the roll for first turn. OR they can attempt to steal the initiative, and as I said, there is an option for a roll-off to determine the exact function of Warp Quake until it is FAQ'd. No daemon player bitches when their Screamers run right through a Land Raider do they? No Daemon player bitches if they get first turn and pound Grey Knights into the floor do they? It was the response to the use of Warp Quake that I find irksome: "I'm not playing if you use the rule"

 

I completely agree that Warp Quake needs clearing up, and for the record I do not use it in that fashion out of pure principle, but let's not forget that 1) This thread wouldn't exist if the Daemons had won, and 2) Grey Knights are designed to defeat Daemons! Next time, just roll-off.

 

Also OP, it's worth noting that Warp Quake is a psychic power that is available only to Strike Squads and Interceptors. Therefore, there is a chance they'll fail their psychic test when attempting to use it as it's not an automatic ability and it also means that unless their entire army is full of Strikes and Interceptors, there is a limited area they can cover with the Warp Quake bubble. If your opponent tells you any different, he's lying.

[Brother Ambroz]

Wow this is just funny. Screamers running right through a land raider? Tell me, how often does that happen? Or how does daemons getting the first turn mean they pound grey knights into the floor? EVERYTHING GK have is engineered to beat the daemon codex into the floor. Preferred enemy, psychic spell out the ying-yang etc. It's perfectly valid that if a daemon player loses the initiative roll then they are screwed against someone using warp quake. Even if it isn't a unit destroyed or back into reserve, the results can still be disastrous for a daemon player. I wouldn't play if someone used a quarp quake list either.

[Godhead]

I believe in a tournament environment where fiends can do everything better than hounds you can't find a spot for the hounds. You simply need the points for other stuff and even against grey knights the fiends can do better all around.

 

 

Hounds can tarpit paladins better than seekers in a heartbeat. You can only have 6 seeks with 2 wounds, but you can have a crapload of hounds in one squad. The dogs don't even need to win combat vs the paladins, just tarpit them enough to let everything else you have finish off the rest of his units. Fearless with a 2+ invul save. I run a packs of 12 and wish I could squeeze in more. Fiends are better against many other armies, but in a tournament it will be grey knight heaven (at least in my area).

[shortysl]

Wow this is just funny. Screamers running right through a land raider? Tell me, how often does that happen? Or how does daemons getting the first turn mean they pound grey knights into the floor? EVERYTHING GK have is engineered to beat the daemon codex into the floor. Preferred enemy, psychic spell out the ying-yang etc. It's perfectly valid that if a daemon player loses the initiative roll then they are screwed against someone using warp quake. Even if it isn't a unit destroyed or back into reserve, the results can still be disastrous for a daemon player. I wouldn't play if someone used a quarp quake list either.

 

I didn't say that Daemons getting first turn meant they would pound the Grey Knights did I? Read the post again. It also doesn't matter how often Screamers go through a Land Raider, that's not what I said either. My point is that Daemons players wouldn't bitch if it did happen. As for everything in the Grey Knight codex being engineered toward defeating Daemons, well imagine that eh?............ I certainly didn't expect Daemon hunting Space Marines to be good at killing Daemons. In case no one's realised, losing the first turn to an Ork player, or a Blood Angel player can be a game losing moment too. If you won't play against someone because they use Warp Quake, then i'm glad you and I don't attend the same gaming club, because I wouldn't WANT to play you.

[Brother Ambroz]

No Daemon player bitches if they get first turn and pound Grey Knights into the floor do they?

 

Hmm what's this? Yes that's not what you said but how often does it happen? Then how often do daemon players (the few that exist) get wiped off the board by GK?

 

Imagine that, yes. But one army being engineered to destroy another isn't a game at all. That's why I wouldn't play with my daemons.

 

Losing first turn can be bad, but not game breaking. If you think so maybe you should take another look at your own strategies.

 

As far as playing at your club, thank god I don't. This is way OT though so I'm done.

[Black_Crusader]

Hounds can tarpit paladins better than seekers in a heartbeat. You can only have 6 seeks with 2 wounds, but you can have a crapload of hounds in one squad. The dogs don't even need to win combat vs the paladins, just tarpit them enough to let everything else you have finish off the rest of his units. Fearless with a 2+ invul save. I run a packs of 12 and wish I could squeeze in more. Fiends are better against many other armies, but in a tournament it will be grey knight heaven (at least in my area).

 

When saying tarpit PALADINS you mean they last more than 1 turn of close combat??? the usual paladins i see will get around 40 attacks with 3+hit with re-roll 2+wound before you swing and if you are lucky and they don't have a librarian with the excommunication you will still lose miserably in the fight (fearless wounds are taken on 5+ so even if you only lose 5 or 6 models you can count 4 or 5 more from the fearless).

Hounds can do a great job at holding strike squads, interceptors maybe even terminators but only if you get them of their vehicles.

Unless half the players in a tourni are grey knights i don't think hounds will do better than fiends. If you put at least one unit of fiends in and still have points for a resonably big squad of hounds (12 as you say i think can be quite a good number) then it is probably a good choice.

[Black_Crusader]

IMHO the real problem is not the grey knights beating daemons in the first turn of a game. The problem is that daemons can lose a game in turn one, not just against grey knights but agianst anyone!!

I recently played a game with my orks against daemons and we stopped the game after the end of turn 2!!!! he simply deep striked his first wave wich included Fateweaver along other things and through a couple of good rolls on my part during my turn and very very bad rolls his part (exable, Fateweaver takes a wound from close combat with sneaky snikrot and loses the leadership running away) he lost his half first wave.

I have played countless games against Imperial guards with my daemons and i am telling you they are worst than the grey knights!!!! at least in my area and experience. The problem is with the daemon codex and how underpowered it is not with the grey knights.

At least that is what i believe.

[Brother Ambroz]

It's not that it's underpowered, it's just difficult to use compared to other armies. I myself haven't mastered the way they work yet either but they're powerful. Just not so much against GK.

[kalbik]

Tactical wise, I’ve been following the usual rule of not playing them with my daemons. I never have a problem jumping right into a game, ether. There’s always another player not wanting to not get face punched by the purifier swarm or p-wing.

 

For tournaments, I’d stick with the net anti-tank list, 4x Tzeentch Chariot, 12 fiends, 3 Tzeentch DP, Unit of Bearers, Rest pink horrors + changeling. You’ll see more mech than GK’s. Odds are the GK players will be geared for anti-mech too, not Daemons.

[Jsm311]

To start I just wanted to say thanks for the advise guys. hopefully it'll come in handy. This thread seems to be drawing some defensive GK players though. I just wanted to make sure that you understood the situation. My opponent had specifically designed an army to fully take advantage of warp quake. I know it is an official rule and all, but seriously? How is that in anyway fair? Actually screw being fair, how about just having some sportsmanship? I have no problem losing but I would like to actually enjoy a game. My general attitude to losing as a daemon player is to cackle and whisper "they'll be back...". From what i've seen of most GK players (and really, there are quite a few) is that they have two lists. One list for daemons and one list for other armies. Defend Gk all you want but the real issue I'm bringing up is that this is what is killing the daemon army. How am I supposed to enjoy going to a tournament when anytime i face a GK player I lose? And before you bring up that it is possible to beat GK with a daemon army, admit that it is stacked pretty good for the GK. Bottom line is that the daemon army needs some work done if it is going to live. What i personally think it needs is a new entrance into the game (again deep striking seems kind of odd to me), maybe some more ranged characters and maybe a way to at least help against the GK. And by help against the GK I in no way am saying they need something unfair or over powered. Just something that will bring them up to par against the GK.

 

Anyway... Nice to have so many response. And just a note to the other conversation going on in this thread, I have used both hounds and fiends. I find that the fiends generally create more of a body count.

 

And finally. Hopefully i've covered everything. A lot of responses to go through. I for one am not going to give up on the daemon army. I just hope GW doesn't give up on the daemons either.

[Vesper]

Seriously, you can't have fun facing GK. Daemons or not. It's just dull as hell, even if you win.

You should really consider just refuse to play GK, it's removing all the fun you can have playing 40k (even if it's the big 5th ed issue, big fat lack of fun and balance).

[shortysl]

Seriously, you can't have fun facing GK. Daemons or not. It's just dull as hell, even if you win.

You should really consider just refuse to play GK, it's removing all the fun you can have playing 40k (even if it's the big 5th ed issue, big fat lack of fun and balance).

 

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The two guys I regularly play against both enjoyed facing my Grey Knights, despite the fact that all three of us can be competitive at times. You talk about removing the fun from 40k but if everyone boycotts Grey Knights because they don't like them, you leave Grey Knigts players without any fun. That's called hypocrisy.

[Vesper]

So freaking boring to play against. You can have fun playing them, but I know no one who enjoy playing against GK. I mean, really nobody.

[Godhead]

I have fun playing against them right up until psycho-no-hope grenades hit and then whichever flavor of assault squad has them steamrolls through everything I own. Other than that, they are pretty fun to play against. I even like the codex. I has quite a few good builds and allows for wide range of diversity. It just sucks to go to a tournament and its 45% Grey Knights and then a smattering of everything else.

[Black_Crusader]

When i play against grey knights i have a lot of fun. At least with the 3 out of 4 guys that play them at my area. The fourth's play style is very boring and annoying but then again it is because of the player not the codex, he also plays tyranids in an awful and annoying way.

[Brother Nihm]

Foot armies are the red-headed stepchildren of 5th ed.

 

Now,

Add a completely random (not to mention bonkers) deployment mechanic and you have a recipe for disaster.