Grey Knight problems

[Piousservant]

If I still had a GK army and was facing a Daemon army, then I'd suggest allowing them to use Sustained Assault for all their Daemons - like in the old DH codex. I think that would make it more fun and show how it should look like when GK face down a real Daemonic incursion...

[calgar101]

Warp quake is well a very powerful psychic power, automatic mishap well that is down right nasty. I do not see what you mean by juggling or anything though? As far as I see it, its; Player uses power (passes psychic test), opponent deep strikes and after scatter is rolled is within 12" of the warp quake, please roll on the mishap chart... Very nasty and powerful power.. Quite broken really.

 

I'm getting lured by a daemon army... If they got rid of the deep strike wave crap then they'd be quite a good army! Skulltaker, Bloodletters and Flamers... You can do some nasty stuff with them. I played a 4 way 1000 point a piece game last week, the daemon player carved up the Eldar and Necrons..

[Lord_Caerolion]

What they mean is the interpretation that one of the mishaps is allowing the enemy to place the Deepstriking unit where they want, and so placing them within range of another Warp Quake, causing another mishap, and so on, until the unit is either placed back in Reserves, or removed as a casualty. Personally I don't interpret the rule as acting that way (only one auto-Mishap per deepstriking unit due to Warp Quake), but there are apparently people out there who take the opposite view.

[Vesper]

Yep. It's called "being a douche". Pretty common in the ranks of GK players, as far as I know.

[DHeese]

I looked him in the eye and announced that the daemons had decided not to show up. After a small argument he agreed to grow a soul and not use this rule so we could play a game.

 

I'm sorry, but you sir are a pansy, of the highest caliber.

 

As it has been mentioned before, WQ is only available to GKSS and GKIS, so the chances of it blanketing the entire board is very slim. Also the potential to fail the test is always present, and for me at least, if i fail a test for a particular squad, that tends to mean no more powers for one turn at least.

 

Secondly, did you REALLY THINK that this "friendly opponent" would cast WQ every turn? Perhaps there would be a reason to cast Hammerhand (i.e. the unit was not in combat, but anticipating and chose not to cast WQ in order to cast HH) or activate Force Weapons.

 

So, if you think Warp Quake is a broken rule or Grey Knights is a broken army, shut up and don't play them. The fact of the matter is, is that's your opinion and it is not true. I have seen Daemon, Nid, Tau, ..almost every single race, aside from Orks beat GK at one point or another, it does happen...maybe you're just not playing effectively. \

- Dan H

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

maybe you're just not playing effectively.

 

That is why we need to illustrate alternative ways for him to deploy/face Gks

[Brother Ambroz]

I looked him in the eye and announced that the daemons had decided not to show up. After a small argument he agreed to grow a soul and not use this rule so we could play a game.

 

I'm sorry, but you sir are a pansy, of the highest caliber.

 

As it has been mentioned before, WQ is only available to GKSS and GKIS, so the chances of it blanketing the entire board is very slim. Also the potential to fail the test is always present, and for me at least, if i fail a test for a particular squad, that tends to mean no more powers for one turn at least.

 

Secondly, did you REALLY THINK that this "friendly opponent" would cast WQ every turn? Perhaps there would be a reason to cast Hammerhand (i.e. the unit was not in combat, but anticipating and chose not to cast WQ in order to cast HH) or activate Force Weapons.

 

So, if you think Warp Quake is a broken rule or Grey Knights is a broken army, shut up and don't play them. The fact of the matter is, is that's your opinion and it is not true. I have seen Daemon, Nid, Tau, ..almost every single race, aside from Orks beat GK at one point or another, it does happen...maybe you're just not playing effectively. \

- Dan H

 

Pretty sure he didn't play them. It is also an opinion but against most GK builds even our top meta lists can be easily tabled in a few turns. GK might not be broken against other armies that are new such as SW, BA or even Crons but against old ;) like ours? If you're trying to say that it isn't that hard, then you're just really being ignorant. Really the only chance daemons have is to tailor a list just for them, IE collars of khorne etc. and that's just not fun.

[Vesper]

Let's say it. Grey Knights book is the most stupidly broken book GW ever released. If they want, they can have an auto-win against Daemons, they can win with ease a kill point game because of broken wound allocation, most of the time everything they field is scoring, and everything in the book is undercosted to the bone. On a game design point, it's a failure.

I don't even want to talk about the fluff, I don't want to be mean.

[Black_Crusader]

I have seen Daemon, Nid, Tau, ..almost every single race, aside from Orks beat GK at one point or another, it does happen...maybe you're just not playing effectively. \

 

why aside Orks??? you say orks can't beat them? i have won a lot of games against GK with my orks, actually i get something like 50-50 win-loss. With daemons is far more difficult but not impossible.

 

If your opponent uses a lot of strike squads and interceptors then i believe with the use of soulgrinders, fiends and hounds you can really make a lot of damage to this kind of army. Also some monstrous creatures will be needed in case he goes first and cover a lot of terrain with the warp quake. You deploy the big ones in the free spots, then hope you don't get big units early, once your monstrous creatures hit the scattered all over the board squads of grey knights the bigger units can safely deploy and then join the hth.

[Crimson Hawk]

To carry on with my story, i got solidly stomped by the grey knights. Skulltaker ended up being my mvp (just had to meantion that... he's my favorite model that i have built). Is there anyway at all to counter the very stacked grey knights army? As I meantioned in my previous post, I'm building Angorn and An'ggrath. So should i just try to sneak them into my 2000pt games? I imagine it would be overkill then (kind of like bringing a gun to a knife fight). I simply cannot think of a way to legally beat the grey knights as I cannot put all of my faith in that my opponent will have all bad rolls one game. In anyone opinion, would it be better to have a fast fleet army (fiends/seekers/etc), a grunt army (plaguebearers/bloodletters/etc) or a monsterzilla army (as many big guys as i can fit, 2 blood thirsters/3 princes/etc) to face down the grey knights?

Thanks in advance for any help for tactics. I also look forward to seeing other people's opinion on the 'warp quake' rule

Well, as Warp Quake goes, it's one of the more stupid things in our Codex, egro I never use it. And the Quakespam list is not exactly 'freindly tournament" stuff. As far as countering it goes, I'm a GK player, so I know our weaknesses.

1) Lack of anti-tank firepower. Take a Soul Grinder (or three) all the anti-tank weapons in the army will be focused on it, and since he clearly had plenty of Strike Squads, so will the stormbolters. He can't split his fire.

 

2) Bloodletters, and lots of em. In a straight fight between 10 GK and 15-20 Bloodletters, you'll come out on top, even though you strike last. Against power armour, Bloodletters are mean. A fifteen- strong unit will cause 15 unsaved wounds on average, so you can be sure to beat them. And if the army is spread out across the board, as it probably will be, all the better.

 

3) Bloodthirsters with Brass Collars. If you go monsters against GK, Brass Collars will protect you from the inevitable force weapon attacks. And, worst case senario, if you do end up fighting on the GKs terms, just remember, if you get teleported to the other side of the board, a Bloodthirster is still extremely fast, so you should end up near the enemy sooner or later. All the above applies to Flesh Hounds as well.

 

So in summary- Khornekhornekhornekhorne. And always remember; you will be striking last, so base every assumption and choice on that fact

 

Oh and guys? Could we lay off the OP for a bit? I'm pretty sure that he came here for tactical advice, not to be slagged off. And also, every single army, played effectively, can beat GK, even sisters.

[Brother Ambroz]

If the GKs are also played effectively then no some armies still can't. Not trying to rant on GKs but that's just how it is.

 

For tactical advice though you're spot on I think. Khorne all the way if you're tailoring to fight GKs.

[Crimson Hawk]

If the GKs are also played effectively then no some armies still can't. Not trying to rant on GKs but that's just how it is.

 

For tactical advice though you're spot on I think. Khorne all the way if you're tailoring to fight GKs.

In fairness, that is true of every army ^_^

[kalbik]

How many posting here actually play daemons on a regular basis… say twice a month?

Added:

How many GK players posting have played against a Daemon army?

[Crimson Hawk]

How many GK players posting have played against a Daemon army?

Ummm, me?

And what does this have to do with anything?

[shortysl]

How many posting here actually play daemons on a regular basis… say twice a month?

Added:

How many GK players posting have played against a Daemon army?

 

I'm not entirely certain just HOW relevant this is? The original discussion revolved around the use of Warp Quake against an army that Deep Strikes. In this case it was Daemons, granted. As a Daemon player, you don't have to have fought Grey Knights to be able to see, and opine upon, how difficult it may be to fight against a Grey Knight payer who's abusing Warp Quake. Similarly, as a Grey Knight player, you don't have to have fought Daemons to be able to opine upon a psychic power with which they are all familiar.

 

I haven't fought Daemons yet, but does that mean that my opinion on Warp Quake and it's ramifications is any less valid?

[kalbik]

Based on some of the comments and hate, I was just wondering. :D

[shortysl]

Based on some of the comments and hate, I was just wondering. B)

 

Ok, fair comment. Hatred, unfortunately is a common occurence in the forums. i freely admit i've never fought a Daemon army. My opinion however, is that neither Grey Knights nor Warp Quake specifically are broken. As with any elite army, Grey Knights are open to abuse from unscrupulous players who want an uber army, but there are just as many Grey Knight players who like them for reasons other than their power. It's always the abuse of rules and the search for loopholes that cause problems in games.

[minigun762]

I can't claim credit for it but Tastytaste from Blood of Kittens does comment how Hounds of Khorne can be very useful against grey knights dues to their collar giving them a 2+ save against nearly anything.

[Chaeron]

I can see a lot of armies struggling against GK, simply because they will struggle to put up the firepower to stop them, and against Daemons, where combat is our niche, you have to suffer from being a "Preferred Enemy"

 

I tend to think that the sheer weight of numbers may be a preferential way of taking care of them, given their points costs, but I’d be happy for any greater tactical insight into ways of dealing with them and not getting crushed early on.

[Godhead]

Based on some of the comments and hate, I was just wondering. <_<

 

Ok, fair comment. Hatred, unfortunately is a common occurence in the forums. i freely admit i've never fought a Daemon army. My opinion however, is that neither Grey Knights nor Warp Quake specifically are broken. As with any elite army, Grey Knights are open to abuse from unscrupulous players who want an uber army, but there are just as many Grey Knight players who like them for reasons other than their power. It's always the abuse of rules and the search for loopholes that cause problems in games.

 

Warp Quake on strike squads isn't really too bad. However, warp quake on interceptors who can move 30" and drop it all over the place along with a couple of strike squads dropping it down is basically an auto loss for daemons. I did it once against my buds daemons. It was a douche thing to do. Neither of us had fun, and there isn't a whole lot one can do if you lose the roll off.

[Brother Ambroz]

I can see a lot of armies struggling against GK, simply because they will struggle to put up the firepower to stop them, and against Daemons, where combat is our niche, you have to suffer from being a "Preferred Enemy"

 

I tend to think that the sheer weight of numbers may be a preferential way of taking care of them, given their points costs, but I’d be happy for any greater tactical insight into ways of dealing with them and not getting crushed early on.

 

 

Preferred enemy isn't the only thing. GK gain numerous buffs when fighting against daemons and psykers.

 

As for numbers, some of our units are indeed cheaper than GK but not by much. At least not enough to give us a superior numerical advantage.

[kalbik]

Been playing daemons since release and I have no useful advice in fighting GK’s. Do have a warning… If you stack you army with thirstiers/hounds and your opponent spam vehicles, you’re not going to do very well. At least in the larger games close combat units are woefully bad at taking out the cheap transports. Even after you crack them open, the unit is done for that turn, giving your opponent that opportunity to shoot it to death.

 

We’re getting a new role book anyway, so this is a bit useless but here’s My best advice for the daemon players. Just stick to the anti mech marine fundamentals. Don’t try and play daemons competitively. Try to play smaller games 1000-1500pionts, where the two codex’s are quite a bit more balanced. If you ever find yourself frustrated and unhappy with a group, play style or person, just stay away from them.

 

If you really want to tailor just to GK’s try:

2x Tzeentch chariots (anti-transport, anti-troop)

Skulltaker on juggernaut w/ bloodcrushers (anti-troop)

2x groups of fiends (anti-transport, anti-troop)

5or6 groups of bolt horrors +1 changeling. (range anti-transport, anti-troop, hold objectives)

3x khorne princes, blessing, deathstrike. (anti-transpor, anti-GK's, here’s your ++2 n cc tarpit)

Scale the unit sizes for 1750 to 2000 point lists.