Dante vs Phylactery

[Seahawk]

Another thinker.

 

Dante's Nerf-button makes an enemy character -1 WS, BS, W, and I for the "remainder of the battle."

 

Say this is on a Necron Overlord with Phylactery who gets killed. Phylactery says if the model repairs, it "stands back up with D3 wounds." Say the Necron player gets 3 wounds back.

 

Does he stand back up with the full 3 wounds (but other stats are still nerfed)? Does he still suffer -1? Which takes precedence? If he stands back up with 1 wound and it's ruled he still suffers, does he die again (can't remember if Dante says min 1 or not).

[breng77]

I would say he gets back up with D3 wounds, no where in the rules does it say he stands back up with D3 wounds up to his base wounds, nor does it say D3 wounds reduced by any modifiers.

[dswanick]

Dante's Death Mask does specify a minimum of 1. And I would say that the Lord should stand up with d3-1 Wounds (to a minimum of 1). Neither rule has a specific override of the other, so there is no reason to not apply both.

[breng77]

except that dantes already did apply , the lord started with only 2 wounds, nothing says he cannot gain more than that number of wounds during the game. Truly it is not a point I'd argue too hard though, and if anything I would say D3 with a Max of 2 is more fair than D3 -1.

[JamesI]

I would say they both apply. Dante nerfs the lord at the beginning, if he gets back up he has d3 wounds, the nerf happened already and is now irrelevant.

[dswanick]

I would say they both apply. Dante nerfs the lord at the beginning, if he gets back up he has d3 wounds, the nerf happened already and is now irrelevant.

Except that the rule states "for the remainder of the battle". So the nerf is a continuous effect. By your logic, shouldn't the Lord stand up and be at full WS/I/A as well as full d3 W as the nerf has already happened?

[Gentlemanloser]

I think the question is does Dante reduce the Maximum?

 

What happens if he's used on some mini that can regain wounds? Like a 'nid, or Inquisitor with a Daemonweapon? Can the wounds regained take them over the -1 imposed by Dante?

[DarkGuard]

except that dantes already did apply , the lord started with only 2 wounds, nothing says he cannot gain more than that number of wounds during the game. Truly it is not a point I'd argue too hard though, and if anything I would say D3 with a Max of 2 is more fair than D3 -1.

 

This would seem a fair way of resolving it that leaves all parties happy.

[Grey Mage]

A model with multiple wounds who fails a saving throw, etc, 'loses a wound from their profile'.

 

He is now gaining wounds to his profile.

 

I would say that the -1 has already happened, and wont happen again- giving the necron player the extra wound. However, this is just my interpretation, and I wouldnt be opposed to playing it as either that or D3 (max 2).

[Toasterfree]

plus dante's death mask says for the remainder of battle. if the IC stands up again, then the nerf would still apply as its not a different one (i.e. Imhotep dies and does not come back as Imhotep the 2nd, hes still Imhotep).

 

d3 wounds would be recovered then -1 wound off would be the right way to do it. it would cause a loop that would attempt to fix itself each time you would check for reanimation protocols would be checked for

[greatcrusade08]

I would say that the -1 has already happened, and wont happen again- giving the necron player the extra wound. However, this is just my interpretation, and I wouldnt be opposed to playing it as either that or D3 (max 2).

 

i cant fault this argument, its a tough argment to make RAW wise but the gaining of D3 wounds has nothing to do with his starting wounds.

nor does the death mask put a maximum limit on wounds characteristics.

by pure RAw he would get the full D3 wounds

[Toasterfree]

I would say that the -1 has already happened, and wont happen again- giving the necron player the extra wound. However, this is just my interpretation, and I wouldnt be opposed to playing it as either that or D3 (max 2).

 

i cant fault this argument, its a tough argment to make RAW wise but the gaining of D3 wounds has nothing to do with his starting wounds.

nor does the death mask put a maximum limit on wounds characteristics.

by pure RAw he would get the full D3 wounds

RAW he does NOT get the full amount of wounds.

 

Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1)for the remainder of the battle

 

if he rolled a 1 (d6 1 or 2), he would stand up with 1 wound. rolls a 2 (d6 3 or 4) would get 1 wound. rolls a 3 (d6 5 or 6) would get two. the character does not change. he did not die. he reanimated and as a result IS STILL IN THE BATTLE. if he was killed, removed and brought back somehow he would still be in the battle and still be affected by it as it lasts THE ENTIRE BATTLE. RAW

[Grey Mage]

I would say that the -1 has already happened, and wont happen again- giving the necron player the extra wound. However, this is just my interpretation, and I wouldnt be opposed to playing it as either that or D3 (max 2).

 

i cant fault this argument, its a tough argment to make RAW wise but the gaining of D3 wounds has nothing to do with his starting wounds.

nor does the death mask put a maximum limit on wounds characteristics.

by pure RAw he would get the full D3 wounds

RAW he does NOT get the full amount of wounds.

 

Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1)for the remainder of the battle

 

if he rolled a 1 (d6 1 or 2), he would stand up with 1 wound. rolls a 2 (d6 3 or 4) would get 1 wound. rolls a 3 (d6 5 or 6) would get two. the character does not change. he did not die. he reanimated and as a result IS STILL IN THE BATTLE. if he was killed, removed and brought back somehow he would still be in the battle and still be affected by it as it lasts THE ENTIRE BATTLE. RAW

Except there is nothing in the rules that states you cannot exceed your starting number of wounds- there are just very few ways of getting wounds back.

[Toasterfree]

its not a starting wounds issue. he is minus 1 wound all game long. not just at the beginning. if that was the case then on reanimation he would not have ANY effects of it. its not a DIFFERENT unit no longer affected by it, its the SAME unit STILL affected by it.

[Grey Mage]

its not a starting wounds issue. he is minus 1 wound all game long. not just at the beginning. if that was the case then on reanimation he would not have ANY effects of it. its not a DIFFERENT unit no longer affected by it, its the SAME unit STILL affected by it.

It is a starting wounds issue.

 

Dantes mask subtracts one wound from him. Period. This makes him W 2. During the couse of the game he gets wounded twice and ends up wound 0. Now the phylactery is activated and adds d3 wounds. 0+d3 allows for 3 to occur.

 

The only reason you couldnt end up with 3 wounds is some idea that because he was at one point W 2, he can never become W 3, W 4, or W 10. This is not the case.

 

And its not a case of it being a different unit that allows this, but the simple expedient of basic math. Subtracting in one place doesnt keep us from adding in another. Gaining wounds in the game is rare, as opposed to any other stat- but theres nothing in the rules to say that a wound is any different than say initiative, or strength. You could take a 'wounds test' and you would use the current wound number- not the starting number- just like any other characteristic.

 

IE the mask doesnt create a new maximum wounds any more than it creates a maximum weapon skill. If you had dantes mask affect the same wolf gaurd as Ulrik the slayers teaching ability the two results would cancel out. IE 4-1+1=4, not 4-1+1=3.

[dswanick]

its not a starting wounds issue. he is minus 1 wound all game long. not just at the beginning. if that was the case then on reanimation he would not have ANY effects of it. its not a DIFFERENT unit no longer affected by it, its the SAME unit STILL affected by it.

It is a starting wounds issue.

Actually, I think it is more of a GW writes :):y rules and doesn't think through all the interactions.

They wrote the basic Wound mechanic (take and unsaved wound, subtract one from the models Wound characteristic) without considering the possibility of game-long wargear which might lower a models Wound cap. They should have written it as wounds taken compared to Wound characteristic.

Then they wrote the Death Mask rule without considering models with the ability to recover "lost" Wounds. This same argument will occur with a Tyranid with Regeneration. If, as you propose (which is a strictly RAW interpretation), the Death Mask simply assesses a -1 Wound (ie. a "loss" of one from the models Wound Characteristic) then any Tyranid model with Regeneration should simply be able to regenerate the lost Wound in its turn. On the other hand, if the Death Mask reduces the models Profile characteristic, setting a lower maximum value, then the Tyranid has nothing to Regenerate but the Necron Lord has a hard cap of 2 Wounds even if he rolls a three on the die.

[Grey Mage]

Except thats not how, RAW, wounds are taken. Its not a 3/4 wounds when Lysander fails his save, its just 3. Its reduced by one- period. The Tyranid codex, and its regeneration, doesnt follow this Im aware. Im just glad no one makes the inane argument that each wound the creature has taken that game allows it a regeneration roll each turn for wounds, up to 10.

[Lysere]

I have not read the necron codex as of late so I do not know the exact wording of the Phylactery rules. What I do know is no stat can go above 10, but otherwise you are never limited to the number of wounds you started with.

 

If the Phylactery rules are worded in the simple manner of the lord gains d3 wounds then regardless of the masks rule he would stand up at the dice roll result. The rest of his stats would be changed still but he simply gained d3 wounds. The mask changes the lords stats at the start of the game. Now lord dies, Phylactery says he gains d3 wounds. The -1 doesn't get reapplied at this point because its already happened. It's not that the lord becomes a new model he just follows the rules for his wargear.

[DarkGuard]

Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1)for the remainder of the battle

 

I can't quite get how we can argue beyond this point. If it's worded that he has one less wound throughout the entire battle then that should surely apply to a phylactery Lord resurrected. He comes back with D3, but then the nerf is still applied, reducing him by one. If it was just a wound then it would have stated that he took a wound, not -1.

 

Has anyone has anyone had any interactions of this with Saint Celestine? I'd imagine the resolution would be somewhat similar?

[Gentlemanloser]

What happens if the phylactery rolls a 1 on the D3? Does the lord not come back?

[Toasterfree]

Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1)for the remainder of the battle

 

I can't quite get how we can argue beyond this point. If it's worded that he has one less wound throughout the entire battle then that should surely apply to a phylactery Lord resurrected. He comes back with D3, but then the nerf is still applied, reducing him by one. If it was just a wound then it would have stated that he took a wound, not -1.

my whole point to this, its a permanent -1, not a 1 time -1. its the entire battle and since its not a NEW lord, it would remain at the -1

 

What happens if the phylactery rolls a 1 on the D3? Does the lord not come back?

min 1 so he would stand back up with 1 wound.

[Toasterfree]

I have not read the necron codex as of late so I do not know the exact wording of the Phylactery rules. What I do know is no stat can go above 10, but otherwise you are never limited to the number of wounds you started with.

 

If the Phylactery rules are worded in the simple manner of the lord gains d3 wounds then regardless of the masks rule he would stand up at the dice roll result. The rest of his stats would be changed still but he simply gained d3 wounds. The mask changes the lords stats at the start of the game. Now lord dies, Phylactery says he gains d3 wounds. The -1 doesn't get reapplied at this point because its already happened. It's not that the lord becomes a new model he just follows the rules for his wargear.

he is not GAINING wounds. he stands back up with d3 wounds. since its not a GAIN issue, and the nerf from dante is the entire game long on the SAME model it would remain. this is not an application, its a permanent effect. the lord would have to come back as something else to lose the nerf

[Grey Mage]

Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1)for the remainder of the battle

 

I can't quite get how we can argue beyond this point. If it's worded that he has one less wound throughout the entire battle then that should surely apply to a phylactery Lord resurrected. He comes back with D3, but then the nerf is still applied, reducing him by one. If it was just a wound then it would have stated that he took a wound, not -1.

 

Has anyone has anyone had any interactions of this with Saint Celestine? I'd imagine the resolution would be somewhat similar?

 

Ok, heres the deal:

 

Hes got 2 wounds. IE (3-1) for most of the battle. He fails two saves, reducing it by two to 0- IE (1-1). Then phylactery kicks in so now he has (1-1+d3) wich could be any number from 1-3. The -1 is still there the whole time, no problem- he still gets the full d3 wounds back and can end up with 3 functional wounds.

[DarkGuard]

I'm sorry, that just seems an overcomplicated way of seeing it. He starts with 2 wounds (3-1), dies, comes back with D3 wounds, and then loses one from the phylactery seems both simpler and also more correct. If he comes back with D3 wounds and doesn't get the negative then the negative isn't being applied and therefore by extension the other negatives shouldn't be applied.

[Toasterfree]

I'm sorry, that just seems an overcomplicated way of seeing it. He starts with 2 wounds (3-1), dies, comes back with D3 wounds, and then loses one from the phylactery seems both simpler and also more correct. If he comes back with D3 wounds and doesn't get the negative then the negative isn't being applied and therefore by extension the other negatives shouldn't be applied.

something that i have already said