Dante vs Phylactery

[Toasterfree]

the phylactery is not ADDING a wound to him, it allows him to stand up with d3 wounds instead of 1

[Grey Mage]

Its increasing his wounds by D3, thats addition.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

At no point does the phylactery reference starting wound values, or anything related to them. If I could take it on a Court Lord, he could come back with more wounds than he started with. Therefore, the Dante bit does not apply, as he's not going back to his starting wounds, he's just adding wounds. When Tyranids use their power, it doesn't take -1 due to Dante. It simply adds wounds. Ruleswise, there is absolutely nothing that would point to wound values.

[Toasterfree]

he would still have the -1 wound as that persists all game long.

 

i dont have necron dex and need the EXACT wording of the rule

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

And it does. He's simply gaining more wounds at exactly the same time that he loses all his wounds. As you can see below, it's just saying he returns to play with some wounds added to him. If I had a magical healing voodoo spell called "Uber-Awesome Whammy OP Healer of Coolness", which gave my characters D3 wounds extra when it healed them, it wouldn't be -1 because of Dante's rule.

 

Necrons Codex, page 82, Phylactery: One use only. A model with phylactery that passes his first Reanimation Protocols roll returns to play with D3 wounds.

[Toasterfree]

And it does. He's simply gaining more wounds at exactly the same time that he loses all his wounds. As you can see below, it's just saying he returns to play with some wounds added to him. If I had a magical healing voodoo spell called "Uber-Awesome Whammy OP Healer of Coolness", which gave my characters D3 wounds extra when it healed them, it wouldn't be -1 because of Dante's rule.

 

Necrons Codex, page 82, Phylactery: One use only. A model with phylactery that passes his first Reanimation Protocols roll returns to play with D3 wounds.

 

returns to play with d3 wounds. if that is the EXACT quoting he is not gaining 1+d3, he is GETTING d3 wounds. so if he rolled a 6, he would get 3. BUT dante targets said IC he has -1 wound FOR THE GAME so he would only stand back up with 2. he is NOT getting 1+d3.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But he already lost that wound at the beginning of the game. Say Almighty Chief Bob has a Phylactery, and is targetted by Dante. At the beginning of the game, he has three wounds, which are brought down to two. He's then killed in manly man combat by Chuck Norris's third fist. His Phylactery allows him to stand up with three wounds. That brings his total wounds over the game to six. He already lost one in the beginning, so that's satisfied, meaning he's had five wounds post-Dante.

[Toasterfree]

it doesnt matter how many he has in his stat line. the effect is not applied just once and then done. its applied once and STAYS there. you cant have you cake and eat it too. if he loses his 2nd wound (after starting the game and being affected by dantes mask) when he rolls the d3, he will stand up with d3-1 wounds. its that simple.

 

bubba hotep the necron lord with 3(-1) wounds from dantes death mask. bubba hotep gets kicked in his robotic lady parts and dies. bubba hotep rolls d3, gets a 3. DEATH MASK says OHHH NO BUBBA! you get 2 of those wounds cause you are reduced down. you are still reduced on all the other stuff. unless bubba hotep stands up as sister hotep, and then is no longer bubba hotep and would no longer be affected by the death mask and therefore would have no nerf rod shoved in his robotic lady parts.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But he already lost that wound. You don't get to take away two wounds from poor, beat upon Bob, you get to take away one. That's why it says -1 in Dante's profile. The conditions have already been met, his wounds value has lost one wound, and he simply gains wounds past his original wounds value. It's sort of like Orikan. When he becomes superman, he doesn't lose a second wound. He stays with the wound he already lost from Dante's mask, and goes past his standard wounds value.

[Toasterfree]

But he already lost that wound. You don't get to take away two wounds from poor, beat upon Bob, you get to take away one. That's why it says -1 in Dante's profile. The conditions have already been met, his wounds value has lost one wound, and he simply gains wounds past his original wounds value.

the death mask is not a LOST wound. its a wound permanently taken away. LOSING a wound is getting shot in the lady parts with a bolt pistol and failing a save. a wound TAKEN AWAY is from death mask.

 

It's sort of like Orikan. When he becomes superman, he doesn't lose a second wound. He stays with the wound he already lost from Dante's mask, and goes past his standard wounds value.

it doesnt matter what the standard wound values are. Bubba hotep is getting nerfed up the butt with dantes rod of maginificant nerfing. the only way for bubba hotep to get back to 3 wounds is to come back as sally hotep bubbas long lost sister with robotic man parts. if you say that the -1 WS has been fulfilled, then that is lost when he comes back up. but it wont be. so the d3-1 wounds is the right way to do it.

 

get dunked.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

The wound is permanently taken away. His wounds characteristic is at 2 as of the first turn. The phylactery simply adds up to three wounds, regardless of the wound value of the model. It's like a power that gives a model +1 wound. He would still gain that wound when the power was used, regardless of what his starting wounds value was. You seem to be operating under the misconception that this is giving him a wounds value. It's not. At no point in the rules, not the fluff, does it mention anything about that. It simply states he gains d3 wounds.

[Toasterfree]

it doesnt matter if its taken away at the beginning the -1 wound is going to last all game long no matter the power. d3-1 wounds when he stands up.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'm sorry, mate, I just don't think I'm going to get through to you what I'm saying. Let's just agree to disagree.

[greatcrusade08]

i have to say im not liking the interpretations here, to say he has another -1 after resurection amounts to him losing 2 wounds during the course of the game.

 

Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has -1 Weapon Skill, -1 Wound, -1 Initiative and -1 attack (all to a minimum of 1)for the remainder of the battle

 

yes it does say remainder of the battle, but the sentence clearly states the effect happens pre game, it just lasts the whole battle.

your interpretation insists you give a -1W at the point of resurrection, however this happens ingame, not before deployment as stated in the rules.

 

as an example my necron lord loses a wound before game.. he now has 2 wounds (running total 1 wound loss)

he dies and resurrects rolling a 3 on his D3, you insist its -1 (another lossed wound, therefore running total is 2 wound loss)

 

the fact that at the point of losing 2 wounds hes considered dead is already factoring the -1W, any resurection "gained" wounds should be as normal

 

if we take the same attitude to celestine, its possible to have her lose 7 wounds in a single battle.. where do we draw the line?

 

edit: to clarify, at the point of resurection hes already at -1W as hes only lost two wounds to be 'dead' (instead of his starting 3)

[Grey Mage]

Exactly. Applying the -1 to the phylactery use amounts to removing 2 wounds from the model. Dantes mask doesnt do that.

[dswanick]

Exactly. Applying the -1 to the phylactery use amounts to removing 2 wounds from the model. Dantes mask doesnt do that.

I'm OK with your interpretation as outlined above, so long as you're OK that your interpretation allows any Tyranid unit with Regenreation to Regenerate the Wound suffered from the Mask.

[breng77]

I'm OK with your interpretation as outlined above, so long as you're OK that your interpretation allows any Tyranid unit with Regenreation to Regenerate the Wound suffered from the Mask.

 

Which is why I think Dantes Mask is supposed to be -1 from Maximum wounds, hence D3 max 2 as my interpretation.

[greatcrusade08]

I'm OK with your interpretation as outlined above, so long as you're OK that your interpretation allows any Tyranid unit with Regenreation to Regenerate the Wound suffered from the Mask.

 

but the intital wound suffered lasts the entire game, it cant be regenerated by RAW (at least thats how it appears to me).

forget maximum wounds, theres no standing in RAW for all that stuff

[dswanick]

I'm OK with your interpretation as outlined above, so long as you're OK that your interpretation allows any Tyranid unit with Regenreation to Regenerate the Wound suffered from the Mask.

 

but the intital wound suffered lasts the entire game, it cant be regenerated by RAW (at least thats how it appears to me).

forget maximum wounds, theres no standing in RAW for all that stuff

I see nothing in the rules which would prevent Regeneration in this case :

"At the start of your turn, as long as the model With the regeneration blomorph is still alive, roll a D6 for each Wound suffered. For every 6 that is rolled, the model recovers a single lost Wound." - C:T, Pg.84

"Q: When a Tyranid model with the Regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)

A: No. When rolling to regenerate wounds roll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds." - C:T FAQ

So by GMs logic, on the Tyranid players first turn, has the model suffered a Wound? Yes. So you can attempt to Regenerate it, up to its W value on the Profile of Characteristics.

[Grey Mage]

Though I could see it being differnt too- since it hasnt suffered the wound, it was just reduced by one. IE the difference between being pinned or going to ground. They do the same thing, but one is forced on you in a particular manner.

[greatcrusade08]

I'm OK with your interpretation as outlined above, so long as you're OK that your interpretation allows any Tyranid unit with Regenreation to Regenerate the Wound suffered from the Mask.

 

but the intital wound suffered lasts the entire game, it cant be regenerated by RAW (at least thats how it appears to me).

forget maximum wounds, theres no standing in RAW for all that stuff

I see nothing in the rules which would prevent Regeneration in this case :

"At the start of your turn, as long as the model With the regeneration blomorph is still alive, roll a D6 for each Wound suffered. For every 6 that is rolled, the model recovers a single lost Wound." - C:T, Pg.84

"Q: When a Tyranid model with the Regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)

A: No. When rolling to regenerate wounds roll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds." - C:T FAQ

So by GMs logic, on the Tyranid players first turn, has the model suffered a Wound? Yes. So you can attempt to Regenerate it, up to its W value on the Profile of Characteristics.

 

except the wound reduction happens before the game starts, its starting number of wounds would already be the reduced figure

[dswanick]

I'm OK with your interpretation as outlined above, so long as you're OK that your interpretation allows any Tyranid unit with Regenreation to Regenerate the Wound suffered from the Mask.

 

but the intital wound suffered lasts the entire game, it cant be regenerated by RAW (at least thats how it appears to me).

forget maximum wounds, theres no standing in RAW for all that stuff

I see nothing in the rules which would prevent Regeneration in this case :

"At the start of your turn, as long as the model With the regeneration blomorph is still alive, roll a D6 for each Wound suffered. For every 6 that is rolled, the model recovers a single lost Wound." - C:T, Pg.84

"Q: When a Tyranid model with the Regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)

A: No. When rolling to regenerate wounds roll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds." - C:T FAQ

So by GMs logic, on the Tyranid players first turn, has the model suffered a Wound? Yes. So you can attempt to Regenerate it, up to its W value on the Profile of Characteristics.

 

except the wound reduction happens before the game starts, its starting number of wounds would already be the reduced figure

That's your interpretation of "starting number of wounds", which conveniently supports your argument. Most people would argue that the "starting number of wounds" is the W printed in the codex, because until you "start" there you have no number against which to assess the Mask's effect. The Profile printed in the Codex is the models starting state. Unfortunately, GW doesn't define this so it's all up to individual player interpretation.

Though I could see it being differnt too- since it hasnt suffered the wound, it was just reduced by one. IE the difference between being pinned or going to ground. They do the same thing, but one is forced on you in a particular manner.

But there's the rub. You, yourself, have argued that the Rules as Written tell us that a Shooting phase wound is a -1W to the Wound characteristic of the Profile of Characteristics (which I've stated is the correct RaW interpretation) - just as Dante's Mask imposes a -1W to the W characteristic of the Model's PoC. Both effects are "Characteristic Damage", both effects are a reduction of the W of a Model by 1 point. And here's where it gets sticky. If a Shooting attack simply reduces a model's W by 1, and an Assault attack reduces a model's W characteristic by 1, and Mask reduces a model's W characteristic by 1 - the the rules also allow for a Save against any W before the model suffers it unless a special rule specifically denies the Save. Death Mask doesn't state that it ignores or bypasses a Model's Saves. So not only should a Tyranid with Regeneration be able to Regenerate the lost Wound, but any model with an Armor or Invulnerable Save should get a Save against the Wound.

[Stormshadow]

I look at it this way.

 

1.A odel has 4 wounds and suffers a rule that says “loos half of your wounds” the model now has 2 wounds left.

 

2. A model has 6 wounds and suffers a rule that say, “double your wounds” the model now have 10 wounds.

 

3. A model has 1 wound and suffers a rule that says “ad D3 wounds” the model now has 1+D3 wounds.

 

Dante alters the wound profile of a model so that it has one les wound than stated in the codex. Let’s say he goes from 3 to 2. If this model experience scenario 1 from above, the outcome would be 2/2=1 wound. In scenario 2 it will be 2x2=4. And in scenario 3 it will be 2+D3= 3 or 4 or 5.

 

If a model with S4 suffers -1 to his strength (for the entirety of the game and so on) I would say that the models strength is 3 and not “whatever it may be” -1. So when that model uses a Power Fist, it would be 3x2=6, and not (4x2)-1=7.

[greatcrusade08]

But there's the rub. You, yourself, have argued that the Rules as Written tell us that a Shooting phase wound is a -1W to the Wound characteristic of the Profile of Characteristics (which I've stated is the correct RaW interpretation) - just as Dante's Mask imposes a -1W to the W characteristic of the Model's PoC. Both effects are "Characteristic Damage", both effects are a reduction of the W of a Model by 1 point. And here's where it gets sticky. If a Shooting attack simply reduces a model's W by 1, and an Assault attack reduces a model's W characteristic by 1, and Mask reduces a model's W characteristic by 1 - the the rules also allow for a Save against any W before the model suffers it unless a special rule specifically denies the Save. Death Mask doesn't state that it ignores or bypasses a Model's Saves. So not only should a Tyranid with Regeneration be able to Regenerate the lost Wound, but any model with an Armor or Invulnerable Save should get a Save against the Wound.

 

how do you factor in the specific rule that states the reduced wound is lost for the entire battle, surely if you regenerate it, its no longer reduced.

also note your logic takes us into strange places, should a model get a save against dantes mask? if the answer is no then regeneration cant be allowed

 

That's your interpretation of "starting number of wounds", which conveniently supports your argument. Most people would argue that the "starting number of wounds" is the W printed in the codex, because until you "start" there you have no number against which to assess the Mask's effect. The Profile printed in the Codex is the models starting state. Unfortunately, GW doesn't define this so it's all up to individual player interpretation.

im sorry to have to disagree here, this is a silly way to look at it.. a characteristic on a page doesnt exist pre game? thats pretty silly mate (not being rude).

when referring to attacks we talk about "base" attacks, not starting attacks, the characteristic in the codex is the base figure, it can be changed before the game starts by dantes mask.

Before the affected model is even deployed it has its wounds reduced by 1, that is pure RAW no interpretation required.

my view of when to apply a figure to starting wounds is logical.

 

i would like to add though, that i think any rule which nerfs an opponent pre game is silly, im rather dissapointed at GW for adding in such unbalanced mechanics into its already unbalanced game sstem, but i think im getting a little OT so ill stop there.

although arent we already OT?

[dswanick]

how do you factor in the specific rule that states the reduced wound is lost for the entire battle, surely if you regenerate it, its no longer reduced.

But that's the very same argument that you and GM are making about the +d3 not being reduced (which, btw, I do agree with GMs description/math). But that' also the point the others are making. Once the Lord gets +d3 wounds he is no longer "reduced". Unless you're arguing that a model which gets additional wounds in game based on dice rolls should be treated differently based on the name of the special rule giving the additional wounds and the english language implications as to wether they are new additional wounds or re-grown old wounds? ;)

also note your logic takes us into strange places, should a model get a save against dantes mask? if the answer is no then regeneration cant be allowed

Absolutely, and that's kind of my point. By sticking to the strict interpretation of an unsaved Wound is a -1 to the Characteristic opens up all these other odd interactions. Yes, that is the RaW, but you have to consistantly and fairly enforce the RaW in all of these interactions.

im sorry to have to disagree here, this is a silly way to look at it.. a characteristic on a page doesnt exist pre game? thats pretty silly mate (not being rude).

when referring to attacks we talk about "base" attacks, not starting attacks, the characteristic in the codex is the base figure, it can be changed before the game starts by dantes mask.

Before the affected model is even deployed it has its wounds reduced by 1, that is pure RAW no interpretation required.

my view of when to apply a figure to starting wounds is logical.

I didn't say the Characteristic on the page doesn't exist pre-game. I said that it is the "starting" state of the models stat. And arguing that the models "starting" Wounds are not the starting state as printed in the Codex and written on the players ary list, but is instead the state of the stat only after start of turn one or after the deployment starts is picking and choosing to advantage without basis in the rules.

Remember, the rule book lays out the steps for playing a game and step 1 is "Agree to a points limit & choose forces". There's your "starting state". Deployment is step 4. While the BA player is "choosing" Dante for his army list, his opponent is "choosing" his Tyranid with 4 Wounds and Regeneration. Only after this Tyranid with 4 Wounds is chosen, can Dante's Mask cause the -1W. Dante's Mask causes the Wound "before deployment", ie. "before Step 4". Then on the Tyranid players first turn, he should be able to Regenerate the Wound back up to his "Starting Wounds" of 4. From Step 1 through step 3, the model had 4 Wounds because he "started" (ie. was selected from the Codex and added to the Player's list) with 4 Wounds "to start".

i would like to add though, that i think any rule which nerfs an opponent pre game is silly, im rather dissapointed at GW for adding in such unbalanced mechanics into its already unbalanced game sstem, but i think im getting a little OT so ill stop there.

although arent we already OT?

But we are in complete agreement here - this rule is massively wrong and worded so badly as to cause more problems than it can possibly address.