Dante vs Phylactery

[greatcrusade08]

But we are in complete agreement here - this rule is massively wrong and worded so badly as to cause more problems than it can possibly address.

 

darn tootin.

 

you do have a point about what constitutes the "start of the game".. ive always considered it game turn one.. with all things like deployment, scout moves etc, being pre game stuff.

tbh the wording is poor, however i think the most important factor in the whole regenration issue is whether you can take a saving throw.

i dont believe its meant to alow it, as it doesnt allude to an unsaved wound, only a -1 on the characteristic, in terms of regen you can only take them on wounds that would otherwise allow armour saves.

 

its a bit of a stretch, but its the only resolution i can think of to the point in hand

[dswanick]

But we are in complete agreement here - this rule is massively wrong and worded so badly as to cause more problems than it can possibly address.

 

darn tootin.

 

you do have a point about what constitutes the "start of the game".. ive always considered it game turn one.. with all things like deployment, scout moves etc, being pre game stuff.

tbh the wording is poor, however i think the most important factor in the whole regenration issue is whether you can take a saving throw.

i dont believe its meant to alow it, as it doesnt allude to an unsaved wound, only a -1 on the characteristic, in terms of regen you can only take them on wounds that would otherwise allow armour saves.

 

its a bit of a stretch, but its the only resolution i can think of to the point in hand

Agreed. We'll just both have to blame Grey Mage ;) for doing such a good job of showing that all Wounds caused are actual reductions of a models Wounds Characteristics on its Profile of Characteristics, thus opening up all these other cans of worms. :P

[greatcrusade08]

Agreed. We'll just both have to blame Grey Mage ;) for doing such a good job of showing that all Wounds caused are actual reductions of a models Wounds Characteristics on its Profile of Characteristics, thus opening up all these other cans of worms. :P

 

is that the new -OR- mantra... "blame grey mage" ;)

 

to be honest i like his maths earlier in the thread, the wounds characteristic for models tha can 'get back up' are never reset, they have a running tally.

the -1 caused by Dante is the reason they died after taking 2 wounds instead of 3, so at the point they get back up they are still technically carrying the curse, you cant stack another -1 on top.

 

in terms of maths its this

3 starting wounds minus one for dantes mask (3-1)

takes two wounds, brining his running total to 0 (3-1-2)

gets back up with 3 wounds rolled on a D3 (3-1-2+3)

 

as you can see dantes curse is still in effect, there is no need to add another

[Grey Mage]

Exactly. I like my math thank you. I know it hurts peoples brains, but I have faith in you all ;)

 

Though I could see it being differnt too- since it hasnt suffered the wound, it was just reduced by one. IE the difference between being pinned or going to ground. They do the same thing, but one is forced on you in a particular manner.

But there's the rub. You, yourself, have argued that the Rules as Written tell us that a Shooting phase wound is a -1W to the Wound characteristic of the Profile of Characteristics (which I've stated is the correct RaW interpretation) - just as Dante's Mask imposes a -1W to the W characteristic of the Model's PoC. Both effects are "Characteristic Damage", both effects are a reduction of the W of a Model by 1 point. And here's where it gets sticky. If a Shooting attack simply reduces a model's W by 1, and an Assault attack reduces a model's W characteristic by 1, and Mask reduces a model's W characteristic by 1 - the the rules also allow for a Save against any W before the model suffers it unless a special rule specifically denies the Save. Death Mask doesn't state that it ignores or bypasses a Model's Saves. So not only should a Tyranid with Regeneration be able to Regenerate the lost Wound, but any model with an Armor or Invulnerable Save should get a Save against the Wound.

Actually... no. It simply removes the wound, reduces it by one. Just because youre forced to go to ground doesnt mean you get a pinning test- sometimes youre just pinned. This is the same thing. You didnt take a wound, and thus get a save- you skipped straight to having your wounds reduced by one.

[dswanick]

Exactly. I like my math thank you. I know it hurts peoples brains, but I have faith in you all ;)

Agreed. It wasn't the math that I was arguing. It was the can of worms the basis for the math opens up. Yes, by RaW a model that starts the game with W3 on his PoC, loses 1W to Mask, and 2W to some other source, falls down, and then gets back up with +3W has 3W. But it opens up the problem of Armor Saves aginst Mask (ignoring the whole other issues opened up by Regeneration). Because, if a Shooting attack reduces the model's W by 1 on the PoC, and Close Combat attacks reduces the model's W by 1 on the PoC, (both of which are true by RaW), then the reduction of a models W by 1 on the PoC by Mask is just another of a large group of ways of reducing a model's W on the PoC. Of course, Mask doesn't specifically state that it ignores Saves, so as the general rules state that before taking a Wound (ie a reduction to the model's W characteristic on its PoC) the model gets a Save then it should apply to Mask also.

[DarkGuard]

I like the maths there Grey Mage, but I still can't agree with it. The question I want to ask is do the other nerfs still apply? Because even though your maths has the wound nerf apply, it appears to no longer apply. One could assume it doesn't apply, especially in the middle of a game, and therefore the others don't apply.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't seem right, and I normally tend to go with what feels right in Grey Area rules. IMO the effects of Dante are a passive ability across the entire game, not a lasting effect from an active ability (if that makes any sense). My only back up is the quote that the effects apply all game, although as they still apply if Dante dies I suppose they could be an active ability with lasting effects, which would fit your maths.

 

I don't know I'm awfully confused now, just hoping for an FAQ to clear this up, I'm still with D3-1, but would be happy to be proved wrong by an FAQ or something!

[Khorneeq]

At first I also thought that Necron Lord should come back with 3-1 W, but that way he looses additional wound in the course of full game (first at the start of game, second while ressurecting). So he get his all D3 Wounds while reanimating but other characteristics still lowered. Altough it looks wrong in the end he finishes game with all cursed characteristics lowered by 1.

[Grey Mage]

I like the maths there Grey Mage, but I still can't agree with it. The question I want to ask is do the other nerfs still apply? Because even though your maths has the wound nerf apply, it appears to no longer apply. One could assume it doesn't apply, especially in the middle of a game, and therefore the others don't apply.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't seem right, and I normally tend to go with what feels right in Grey Area rules. IMO the effects of Dante are a passive ability across the entire game, not a lasting effect from an active ability (if that makes any sense). My only back up is the quote that the effects apply all game, although as they still apply if Dante dies I suppose they could be an active ability with lasting effects, which would fit your maths.

 

I don't know I'm awfully confused now, just hoping for an FAQ to clear this up, I'm still with D3-1, but would be happy to be proved wrong by an FAQ or something!

"One could assume it doesnt apply."?

 

I really dont understand where youre going there Darkguard- either its been applied or it hasnt. I dont see why the others would go away- particularly since its understood that this one doesnt either.

[breng77]

Based on Greys math, the wound nerf is still in application even if the Necron Overlord gets up with 3 wounds. Look at it this way. If you don't have dante nerfing the lord, and he gets back up with 3 wounds you will have needed to cause 6 wounds to kill him, with dante you only need 5 still 1 less wound.

 

This brings to mind a question of how would Dante effect the Grey knight Psychic power Quick Silver. A GK libby effected by Dante is reduced to I3, if he then goes on to cast quicksilver, he replaces this with I 10, so is he I9 or I 10 (not that it really matters against BA)

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'd say he goes to initiative ten, since it's not saying add 6 to the initiative, but rather boost the initiative up to ten. So if a Guardsman used it, he would still be bumped up to ten.

[DarkGuard]

I like the maths there Grey Mage, but I still can't agree with it. The question I want to ask is do the other nerfs still apply? Because even though your maths has the wound nerf apply, it appears to no longer apply. One could assume it doesn't apply, especially in the middle of a game, and therefore the others don't apply.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't seem right, and I normally tend to go with what feels right in Grey Area rules. IMO the effects of Dante are a passive ability across the entire game, not a lasting effect from an active ability (if that makes any sense). My only back up is the quote that the effects apply all game, although as they still apply if Dante dies I suppose they could be an active ability with lasting effects, which would fit your maths.

 

I don't know I'm awfully confused now, just hoping for an FAQ to clear this up, I'm still with D3-1, but would be happy to be proved wrong by an FAQ or something!

"One could assume it doesnt apply."?

 

I really dont understand where youre going there Darkguard- either its been applied or it hasnt. I dont see why the others would go away- particularly since its understood that this one doesnt either.

 

It was a bit of a rambling post, but that's sort of the state of my mind these days. :)

 

Basically, what I was trying to get at is that while the maths is good, it's harder to remember in a battle. To someone it could seem as if the nerf no longer applies, despite the fact is once did, which would then expand to the other characteristics. It's not really a RAW argument, but I'm trying to visualize how the arguments would effect other aspects in the game. I feel the argument of D3-1 has just as much merit as 3-1+D3, but may be easier to remember and visualize in the middle of a battle.

 

I'm thinking this is very much grey area, so will be happy to enact either conclusion until it's FAQed.