The Primarchs... The Lion.

[Isiah]

I've this morning I purchased The Primarchs. I've also lost all self-restraint and jumped to page 225 to The Lion by Gav Thorpe ;).

 

Only read 2 or 3 pages out of the 102 so far, but I can tell you even at this early stage we see the Lion at his self-doubt-ridden-best – a role I fear he is becoming a bit typecast into. My son's rugby tournament a bit later means that I probably shan't make any more inroads into this until tomoorrow.

 

But already I can see that Gav is managing to work the narrative of his story to follow on after the events depicted in the wreckage that was Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Savage Weapons – The Lion being set 82 after that conflict with Curze.

 

I've high hopes that Mr Thorpe can weave his magic into this tale.

 

Cheers

I

[EPK]

They have actually been releasing it in snippets on blacklibrary.com but I decided to wait for the book... which for me is on Pre-order and not supposed to arrive until June ;)

 

Here is a running thread on it:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=247005

 

I stopped reading the thread above, because like I said I wanted to wait for the book, but I'm curious, is the 3 parts they realeased online the full novella in the Primarchs book?

[Aegnor]

Just finishe it. Some good points in there, in some ways I'm ever so slightly disappointed in the direct Thorpe took it. I think the DAs and the Lion, through this HH series, are suffering a little from too many authors writing about it. Predictably, I liked ADB's Savage Weapons the most, but conscious he and Abnett can't write EVERY book.

 

Feels like Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels took the DAs in one direction, Savage Weapons was a (good) change in terms of how the Lion in particular was cast, and this is again a change, albeit more subtle, in how the Lion appears, which does flow on from the events of Savage Weapons, but also feels like an attempt to reassert some of the character quirks that came out of the first two DA HH books.

 

In terms of where it ends up:

 

Not sure what I think of the conclusion. Does the Lion REALLY believe that Horus can be brought back into the fold? Really? Have to re-read it as well in terms of what his objective is - to protect the Emperor by opposing Horus and what he sees as Guilliman's separatism, as a third force? The revelation he is directly discussing his plans with the Watchers in the Dark is pretty major as well.

 

[KJB]

Just finished it, and I loved it!

 

None more loyal to the emperor than the Lion...

[Valtonis]

the story just shows that the Lion has serious trust issues, proves that he is totally loyal to the Emperor but he does not trust any of his other brothers or even his own legion

[march10k]

proves that he is totally loyal to the Emperor but he does not trust any of his other brothers or even his own legion

 

...tinfoil hat time!!! Maybe he had good reason to distrust his legion...maybe he's held captive in stasis by the inner circle... Conspiracy! Alert the tabeloids!

[Castlerook]

the story just shows that the Lion has serious trust issues, proves that he is totally loyal to the Emperor but he does not trust any of his other brothers or even his own legion

 

Then again, the Lion spent his first years alone in a Chaos infested forest with no human contact. When he does meet human for the first time they tried to kill him. He then joined a monastic order which didn't exactly promote a social atmosphere. That alone would make someone wary of others.

 

Then, and I'm just going on my own guessing as to when exactly the story (cause I haven't read it yet) is set so bear with me, you have the Heresy. The Istvaan III and V massacres has probably been revealed to each Primarch. Night Haunter has gone walkabout and terrorizing planets and Guilleman is practically creating his own little Imperium. Things like that are bound to disturb someone like the Lion who doesn't have the social foundation of say, Rogal Dorn. Perhaps to a greater extent than any of his brothers, the Lion is a survivor, after all, Caliban has been stated to be one of the more dangerous death worlds in the galaxy. Even being a Primarch, with those abilities and strengths, to survive on a world so filled with Chaos beasts would require an unhealthy degree of paranoia.

 

I can't comment on the degree of his loyalty to the Emperor, but for the lack of trust he might have for anyone else, I can totally understand it and its a character trait that I do like. The Primarchs exemplify everything about humanity, both good and bad, be it the ambition, the stubbornness or the thirst for power and paranoia. Its traits like that that make the characters far more interesting rather than the morally black and white supermen they might sometimes be perceived them as.

[Hyaenidae]

...after the events depicted in the wreckage that was Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Savage Weapons...

 

:wallbash: ......what?

 

No offence, but how in the nine hells is AD-B's Savage Weapons considered "wreckage'?!? That was the first time I really felt some serious respect for the Lion, and I felt he was depicted beautifully. Abnett drops KNF, the greatest Ultra book ever, and the Ultra fans lose it; Prospero Burns hits shelves, and the damn Wolves go rabid; You guys get two crappy books in the HH in a row, and you think the only good HH centered 1st Legion story sucks?!?

 

Lord, there's no satisfying some fans.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

I'm sure A D-B can defend himself. We're all entitled to our opinions.

[Isiah]

...after the events depicted in the wreckage that was Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Savage Weapons...

 

:lol: ......what?

 

No offence, but how in the nine hells is AD-B's Savage Weapons considered "wreckage'?!? That was the first time I really felt some serious respect for the Lion, and I felt he was depicted beautifully. Abnett drops KNF, the greatest Ultra book ever, and the Ultra fans lose it; Prospero Burns hits shelves, and the damn Wolves go rabid; You guys get two crappy books in the HH in a row, and you think the only good HH centered 1st Legion story sucks?!?

 

Lord, there's no satisfying some fans.

 

No offence taken 1000heathens and no there is no satisfying some fans :D.

 

Yeah maybe "wreakage" was a bit harsh... But I didn't like it from a 'Lion' point of view and I'm entitled to say so. I disagree with him being "depicted beautifully". But deeper discussion on that is OT for here and we had a discussion on that story already.

 

 

----------------------

 

Finshed The Lion last night. All-in-all great character development I think. He seems to have matured both in his preclusion positivity (to action) and in his reasoning on confusing set of circumstances; and has shifted somewhat from inner feelings of guilt - though those still lurk.

 

Things I like:

• not overly burdened by the legacy of Savage Weapons although Mr Thorpe has let the narrative flow from those events;
  
• I love his pragmatic view on the use of Psykers, despite the ruling of Nikaea (spelling?) that Astartes shouldn't use them. Brilliant!
  
• strong leadership at last;
  
• the continued use of Corswain - he remains as yet bit of a mystery - ground for future development;
  
• His total mistrust of everyone except the DA (it seems). In times of great confusion seems a very sensible route to adopt.
  
• Recognising that the safety of the Imperium is worth more that what might be happening to the rest of his Legion on Caliban - something he is possibly now aware of via the little red-eyed hooded figure towards the end of the story.
  

 

There again, this is my opinion and I'm sure not everyone will agree with it :lol:.

 

Cheers

I

[Marshal Rohr]

Corswain is Cypher.

[Isiah]

...maybe. Both like swords... but he'd be 10,000 years old by now surely :)

[Valtonis]

I can't comment on the degree of his loyalty to the Emperor, but for the lack of trust he might have for anyone else, I can totally understand it and its a character trait that I do like.

 

it does state very specifically that his loyalty to the Emperor is absolute. he probably distrusts Guilliman because he seems to want to be the one in control instead of the one serving. and of course the weaknesses of the Primarchs are what makes them so interesting if not they would just be as boring as Superman

 

...maybe. Both like swords... but he'd be 10,000 years old by now surely :)

 

well if he is chaos-tainted that isn't really a problem or if he spent any amount of time in the warp

 

although what people have not pointed out or ask is what is the result of the fight between

Night Haunter and Lion. the Lion was hurt badly by Night Haunter but was he defeated? i personally don't think so. it might have ended with N.H. bugging out after hurting the Lion

 

[Hyaenidae]

*Le Snip*

 

Sorry, I came across a bit harsh myself, man. Of course, your opinion is yours, guess I'm just suprised when I read a real good story, then see so much backlash from other readers. *shrug* To each their own. :drool:

[Marshal Rohr]

It all seem pretty Game of Thrones to me.

 

You've got Dorn and Sanguinus at Terra, fighting to keep Horus from killing the Emperor. Guilliman running around like the Emperor is already dead. The Lion trying to keep Guilliman from seizing power.

 

This should open up some nice new story lines where the Lion is the real enemy of the codex reforms, and the Dorn v. Guilliman arguments will fall by the wayside. It makes more sense anyway since the Dark Angels still act like a Legion, and the Imperial Fists and all but one successor embraced the codex.

[Brother Immolator]

Much to my dismay the Lion entertained the thought of braking the power of the Legions somehow in order to preserve the imperium by 'not allowing anyone to control such power' even if it cost him his own legion. I dont believe he meant it codex astartes style (i.e. break up of the legions) since it makes no sense from a strategic standpoint. This however means that when Gilli made his gamble later the Lion might have resigned himself and accepted the codex as a necessary evil for the time being. The time being, clean up house on Caliban and find a way to circumvent such foolishness,which might have led to the basis of forming the inner circle albeit for different reasons than what it turned out.

 

I think i thought this through too much :)

[Phoebus]

Aegnor,

 

 

The Lion could justifiably think Horus might surrender. Remember, his only encounter with Luna Wolves was in "Fallen Angels", and the presence of Chaos was very understated. In "The Lion", the use of the Warp by the Night Lords to follow the Dark Angels is shown to be a concept new to the I Legion. The Lion likely still thinks Horus to be a more or less familiar sort of rebel - and not the chosen champion of a pantheon of gods.

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

It all seem pretty Game of Thrones to me.

 

You've got Dorn and Sanguinus at Terra, fighting to keep Horus from killing the Emperor. Guilliman running around like the Emperor is already dead. The Lion trying to keep Guilliman from seizing power.

 

This should open up some nice new story lines where the Lion is the real enemy of the codex reforms, and the Dorn v. Guilliman arguments will fall by the wayside. It makes more sense anyway since the Dark Angels still act like a Legion, and the Imperial Fists and all but one successor embraced the codex.

 

I like the way you think M2C, but remember, the Lion is a sneaky bugger.

He will embrace the codex at face value and continue with his Legion in the shadows. It gives him an ally meanwhile retaining his seat of power.

Dorn strikes me as a much more open and honest Primarch and will choose to be adherent to fall in line with the 'masses'. His one exception (BTs) you mention might be his own way of retaining power too.

Different styles for different dudes.

 

@1000H and Isiah: I really liked the feel of SW when I read it, it was great to have a fresh feel to our Primarch and some character added to our rather stale backstory. But after a little thought about the actual details it did seem to leave the Lion looking weak, unsure and reactive. I'm glad Gav has moved that story forward and clarified Lions role in the bigger picture. The Lion ain't nobodies fool, he just has lot's to consider(info from the jawas for instance).

 

stobz

[Candleshoes]

It is an interesting thing, what may or may not have happened in the rebuilding. The glue of the codex in regards to many of the first foundings and their successors is likely a lot less potent than we originally accepted. Some outright ignored it, some used certain parts of it, some followed it to the letter, some used it as the crutch to rebuild the atrocities that they suffered in the war against Horus.

 

I think each Legion and each successor can claim a unique experience of what did and didn't work at that time, as certainly, we can assume each of the surviving Primarchs had their own ideas about the worth and value, the implementation and the reasoning behind the breaking of their Legions and the adopting of the codex. The only safe thing, and the saving grace for a second civil war, was the fact that the Primarchs, even those who disagreed, begrudgingly put the Imperium first.

 

As for the enemies of the codex reforms, we have an interesting pool of surviving politics, and none given their histories, would make for willing followers that older articles make them out to be. Russ chose to live as he always lived. The Lion has already claimed his thoughts to the plans of Roboute Guilliman, and his willingness to follow them. Corax and his Legion were crippled and driven to do anything that would give them purpose and meaning in a war that had already laid them low - he should have taken his rightful place beside Dorn on the walls of Terra, instead of needing to justify his wrath. His fragile state and mistrust for the Salamanders and the Iron Hands would not be condusive to peace. The same could be said for the Iron Hands, and if by the spoilers of what is in store for them are anything to go on, they have a lot of hate and retribution in their hearts for the ones who put them in that position. The Khan saw through the worst of it, as did Dorn, and that changes you. He is even recognised in Know No Fear as not being one of Guilliman's cornerstones, his legion wild, unpredictable and potentially untrustworthy. Vulkan is a mystery yet to be delved into in any great length, certainly nothing that would give us an indication of where his mind and heart would be in the aftermath. Dorn's fall is one of painful self destruction, and he had every reason to act the way he did, which as many pointed out, isn't helpful to Roboute's Imperium. These conflicts will make for a great show, especially as the older lore never really went into them at that time with any amount of detail or passion.

[Aegnor]

What people's thoughts on the Lion

straight up executing Nemiel over the latter's insistence on following the Emperor's Nikea edict? Thought it was a bit much, and was surprised the rest of those present seemed so unfazed.

[Brother Immolator]

As it was stated elsewhere it was what i expected of him.A supreme military leader would broker no dissent within his ranks in an hour of crisis.

The guy got what he asked for.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I don't like it, I originally thought it was ok in context, but in hindsight it made the Lion look petulant at best and insane at worst. That's no way for a true leader to treat subordinates imho. In my experience a true leader get's calmer in a crisis, not violent. The time for 'justice' can be later, esp in that senario.

 

I understand the lack of submission was an error by N but the reaction by the Lion did seem a 'bit' much.

 

I hope things get better, at least we are getting some character development now, like it or not.

 

stobz

 

EDIT: For clarity

[Aegnor]

Yeah, it's not the brooking no dissent and asserting himself over his troops I had an issue with. It was the shift from "what do we all think" to

"head comes OFF"

in the space of a couple of minutes at most that surprised me. Especially as the objection being raised was a reasonable one (maybe ultimately wrong in the circumstance, but a very valid objection to make nonetheless).

 

If the Lion had

smashed Nemiel in the face, sending him flying but not killing him, then ordered him be stripped of rank and thrown in a cell, rather than killing him outright, that would have made a similar point about the Lion's temper and intolerance of being challenged, without making him seem unhinged.

 

 

Edit: Also, isn't Nemiel the same character who had featured in Descent of Angels? (can't recall the name of Zahariel's buddy in that book). If so, this story has

abrupty ended that "sibling-rivalry" story arc without any resolution.

 

[The Shadow Guard]

Yeah, it's not the brooking no dissent and asserting himself over his troops I had an issue with. It was the shift from "what do we all think" to

"head comes OFF"

in the space of a couple of minutes at most that surprised me. Especially as the objection being raised was a reasonable one (maybe ultimately wrong in the circumstance, but a very valid objection to make nonetheless).

 

If the Lion had

smashed Nemiel in the face, sending him flying but not killing him, then ordered him be stripped of rank and thrown in a cell, rather than killing him outright, that would have made a similar point about the Lion's temper and intolerance of being challenged, without making him seem unhinged.

 

 

Edit: Also, isn't Nemiel the same character who had featured in Descent of Angels? (can't recall the name of Zahariel's buddy in that book). If so, this story has

abrupty ended that "sibling-rivalry" story arc without any resolution.

 

I fully support what happened and am at peace with it. The Lion and his flagship along with his fleet were in an extremely lethal situation which they had not experienced previously. It had just dawned on the Lion that the psykers were their salvation, the librarian having cleansed the bridge of the warp beasts, a clear and direct demonstration of their tactical value.

 

Then he had Nemiel essentially countermanding his order; In the imperial guard a commissar would have no hesitation in summarily executing any ranking officer who countermanded their order in such a critical situartion. The tactical situation was very precarious on the bridge and there can be no dissent.

 

It also had the effect of socking the reader in to sitting up and wondering "what next?"

 

Perhaps news of Nemiel's death may impact on the character development of Zahariel back on Caliban.

 

REgardless I am just a blatant sycophant for anything Unforgiven... I really enjoyed ANgels of Darkness, Descent of ANgels, Fallen Angels, Savage Weapons and The Lion.... call me easy to please.... ;) ;)

 

SG

[Terrahawk]

I agree with you guys (well, some of you):

The decapitation came out of nowhere and made the Lion look more or less insane. Didn't like it at all and I was left a little disappointed that it wasn't explained or referred to at all later in the story.

 

 

Other than that, I liked the story even though I do rate Savage Weapons higher. ;)