Captain Idaho Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 As I said, BL generally tends to make DAs controversial... But have also failed (in the past) to give the Lion the "Primarch quality" he deservers. The Lion is loyal - this is established already. Nemiel is wrong to challenge him on grounds of loyalty. Sometimes the rules of the game change faster than any law or edict has the time to change. Who's to say what's to be done? Not Nemiel, that's for sure. We are not talking about 40k where everything is set on stone. This is a Primarch's call and the distance between the Lion and Nemiel is vast. Nemiel performed hubris and got what was coming to him... What about loyalty to his men, to those who fought beside him? It was aweful and the kind of thing you expected a traitor Primarch to do. I agree BL and GW are trying to make DA contraversal. I'd go one further and say they are trying to make them wolves in sheeps clothing. (excuse the pun) I think they are trying to make them the bad guys who stayed loyal (well most of them!). I think that's not going to make many DA fans happy. I just hope it doesn't make non-DA fans haters, but I fear we will see a surge of it when we see DA in the starter set, the 1st Codex and now this "contraversy" in the Heresy series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 What about loyalty to his men, to those who fought beside him? Tell that to Nemiel, who was demanding the death of his brother for using his powers to prevent the rest of his brothers from being torn apart by Daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 What about loyalty to his men, to those who fought beside him? Tell that to Nemiel, who was demanding the death of his brother for using his powers to prevent the rest of his brothers from being torn apart by Daemons. Another example of why you could not reason with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Brother Immolator, Capt Semper: the argument that people are applying 2K standards to the 30K era has been made a couple of times. I think it's an invalid argument. The idea that might doesn't always equal right in moral terms has been around for thousands of years. The idea that the ends don't always justify the means has been around for thousands of years. The idea that soldiers should have to observe moral codes beyond the immediate tactical requirements of situation they face has been around for thousands of years. These things are in Homer's Iliad, the Bible, etc etc from times long before democracy and the modern legal systems. They've been around in one form or another pretty much since men started fighting with each other in organized groups. I think those of us who are saying it was understandable are applying 40K grimdark standards to 30K. The two are very different - albeit the HH series are in one sense the story of how the 30K era turned into the 40K we all know and love. It's in the little speil in the start of each Black Library book. The 40k regime is the most horrific, absolute, bloodthirsty regime imaginable APART from the regime that would be imposed if the Imperium fell and Chaos ruled instead. The 30K regime was a very different beast. The Great Crusade was about spreading ideals of rationalism, enlightened logic and order in place of tyranny etc. There were obvious contradictions that meant it was not as ivory-pure as their own rhetoric, but the Imperium of the Great Crusade had ideals they profoundly believed in. Everyone in the 30k world who has caught a glimpse of the 40k version of the Imperium has been utterly nauseated and devastated - including Horus during his visions on Davin. So we should be seeing the first painful steps down that path, but they should be seen for what they are - tragedies. And while the "good guys" are still fighting to protect the Imperium of the Great Crusade they believed in, they shouldn't be leaping in one fell swoop to acts of unreasoning tyranny or acting like 40K inquisitors, without it being recognized they've done something very wrong. tl:dr - good guys in 30K shouldn't be acting like good guys in 40K. And I had thought the Lion, for all his flaws, was a good guy, but this had me questioning that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Brother Immolator, Capt Semper: the argument that people are applying 2K standards to the 30K era has been made a couple of times. I think it's an invalid argument. The idea that might doesn't always equal right in moral terms has been around for thousands of years. The idea that the ends don't always justify the means has been around for thousands of years. The idea that soldiers should have to observe moral codes beyond the immediate tactical requirements of situation they face has been around for thousands of years. These things are in Homer's Iliad, the Bible, etc etc from times long before democracy and the modern legal systems. They've been around in one form or another pretty much since men started fighting with each other in organized groups. I think those of us who are saying it was understandable are applying 40K grimdark standards to 30K. The two are very different - albeit the HH series are in one sense the story of how the 30K era turned into the 40K we all know and love. It's in the little speil in the start of each Black Library book. The 40k regime is the most horrific, absolute, bloodthirsty regime imaginable APART from the regime that would be imposed if the Imperium fell and Chaos ruled instead. The 30K regime was a very different beast. The Great Crusade was about spreading ideals of rationalism, enlightened logic and order in place of tyranny etc. There were obvious contradictions that meant it was not as ivory-pure as their own rhetoric, but the Imperium of the Great Crusade had ideals they profoundly believed in. Everyone in the 30k world who has caught a glimpse of the 40k version of the Imperium has been utterly nauseated and devastated - including Horus during his visions on Davin. So we should be seeing the first painful steps down that path, but they should be seen for what they are - tragedies. And while the "good guys" are still fighting to protect the Imperium of the Great Crusade they believed in, they shouldn't be leaping in one fell swoop to acts of unreasoning tyranny or acting like 40K inquisitors, without it being recognized they've done something very wrong. tl:dr - good guys in 30K shouldn't be acting like good guys in 40K. And I had thought the Lion, for all his flaws, was a good guy, but this had me questioning that. Well, first of all morality has been fairly mutable historically. Take views on slavery for example. Or the value of human life between different societies and cultures in different ages and even today. Furthermore just because an ideal did exist, it doesn't mean it was the dominant moral of its time. Also Homer was what? 1,100 years BC? So like 3.1k years ago? Certainly not 30k or 40k ... And you do know that sacrificing a young girl to obtain favourable winds was an OK view by world leaders at the time - no? ;) Anyway this is not about morality today, yesterday or indeed in 30 or 40 thousand years. This is about a Sci-Fi setting that has its own laws, it is inhabited by super-human warriors that are led by demi-Gods and are in turn led by a super-human being of amazing powers. How these characters interact and what is right and wrong for them is anyone's guess, but applying our 2k morality to judge them is only one way to go. But it is not the only way, and in fact it is a very literal and grounded way that deprives the best part of escapism in my view... BTW BL literature does not pretend to be an extrapolation of human history in the future. It's Sci-Fi and can keep whatever human traits it likes and discard others. One think I whole-heatrtedly agree with though: 40k is a different place compared to 30k. More so for the DAs. And I have made some points in the past about the discontinuity suffered by the 1st Legion unlike any other... But that's another story. However Primarchs were not treated as buddies by Marines (although every Legion had its own traditions). Even during the Great Crusade in what was arguably a more "enlightened" period (where destroying non-threatening civilizations was OK btw), Primarchs were standing head and shoulders above Space Marines and a clear distance existed between them. I think the Lion is also depicted as a fairly introvert individual creating an even greater distance between him and his Marines... unlike maybe Horus that was definately more levelled with his Leutenants. And the Lion is a good guy. Because at this point in time goodness is already measured by the loyalty to the Emperor and not by the tolerance to insubordination (or tolerence in general). That's my take anyway. Oh, and I hate Nemiel and Zachariel! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 And the Lion is a good guy. Because at this point in time goodness is already measured by the loyalty to the Emperor and not by the tolerance to insubordination (or tolerence in general). What about loyalty to his men, to those who fought beside him? Tell that to Nemiel, who was demanding the death of his brother for using his powers to prevent the rest of his brothers from being torn apart by Daemons. Another example of why you could not reason with him. Let me get this straight; the Lion was considered good because it is measured in loyalty to the Emperor, and yet he kills a senior officer of his Chapter infront of his men, for demanding loyalty to the Emperor's commands? Luther and Zachariel were exhiled to their home planet for planting a bomb on the Lion's Capital ship, yet Nemiel is executed brutally for wanting obedience to the Emperor? Need I say more :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 TBH, I think that the sentiment that was expressed about the Dark Angels being bad guys that stayed loyal is spot on. They are not supposed to be "good guys" IMO, they are the loyalist soulless - their loyalties should be the Lion and the Emperor. Humans are simply human to them, IMO. These aren't the caring Greco-Roman space knights that the Ultramarines are. I will say honestly, I haven't read any of the story yet, but now I'm eager to. I somewhat feel like the concept of Nemiel's death for demanding loyalty to the Nikean edict was there to show that the Lion, while loyal, is loyal in his own fashion. He's not going to directly rebel, but given the choice between tying his own hands by not using resources and staying true to an edict (even from the Emperor) that may cost him immense resources, he's gonna fight with what he has, as he's a pragmatist that grew up in Chaos tainted forests that likely forced him to learn just that. We don't know precisely what each Primarch knew in their minds when they were tossed into the Warp, but we do know they knew some things, extrapolating from Corax's memories in Deliverance Lost. It's likely that the Lion learned early on the idea of "the lesser of two evils". The Lion may have actually known "It's bad" but was forced to do things anyway. I think this concept simply reinforces that idea. The Dark Angels are not pure souls, even in the Horus Heresy. I don't necessarily like the use of Nemiel in this fashion. Nemiel is of Caliban, not Terra. I can see a Terran Marine that was out and about before the addition of the Lion to the Legion objecting to him about the Edict in this fashion, but Nemiel was basically raised as a Marine during Johnson's time. It's more out of character for him to object in this way than it is for the Lion to kill him in this fashion, IMO. Nemiel hasn't been described as an Emperor worshipping Marine, but he has seemed exceedingly loyal to the Lion previously. Completely out of character for him, that should have been a Terran Marine like Astelan in that particular situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I thought it was out of character for him too, but I'm thought about it and now feel it is a symbol of his mind becoming somewhat unstable from the shock and pressures of the Heresy and all that that entails. Just as well he never became Warmaster I guess! :lol: After all, there were a dozen or more ways to deal with insubordination yet he does it like that was more than shocking, it was alien from him. And since it's unusual for him to behave that way, it's probably a sign of a direction he is moving to. Puts into perspective the apparent disappearance of allies of theirs when they find out something they weren't meant to actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 First off all there is no good in this setting.How can anyone been considered good when the basic principle of good the value of life is been tossed aside like nothing? Second brother Aegnor.We are not speaking about either 30k or 40k here.But for the interbelum which makes matters worse.It the worst possible time.We are speaking about the settings apocalypse here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I thought it was out of character for him too, but I'm thought about it and now feel it is a symbol of his mind becoming somewhat unstable from the shock and pressures of the Heresy and all that that entails. Just as well he never became Warmaster I guess! :) After all, there were a dozen or more ways to deal with insubordination yet he does it like that was more than shocking, it was alien from him. And since it's unusual for him to behave that way, it's probably a sign of a direction he is moving to. Puts into perspective the apparent disappearance of allies of theirs when they find out something they weren't meant to actually... I don't think the killing of Nemiel was that out of character for the Lion, but I haven't read the book yet. From what I can gather though, and what I was saying at the end, is that Nemiel's objection in this fashion is the part that seems jarringly out of character to me. I actually expected something like this from the Lion. Being a genius strategic mind wouldn't make you the nicest person, and the Lion's formative years in the Caliban forest wouldn't have improved that any. What we likely saw was a throw back to a side of him he keeps bottled up out of fear of showing everyone else what he really is, namely the last Beast of Caliban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Oh poetic, I like it! The true, last beast of Caliban! The true Calibanite Lion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Just finsihed the story so thought Id chip in with my random babblings... The "little brother" and "Cor" stuff gives it a childish tone imho, theres no sense of grandeur. I can understand the desire to enforce the orders sense of brotherhood but from a supposed demi-god it just sounds wrong. The beheading is not a major point for me, as FB says earlier its removing a story line and based on some of the criticism the story got it struck me as slightly tongue in cheek. There also seems to be a sudden shift after the battle on the ship to the planet, like 2 story ideas not fully fleshed out which disrubts the flow. Anyway onto the important stuff, Corswain as cypher would be cool, totally loyal to the legion and the emperor so how does this fit in with cypher now?? Thats got interesting conspiracy all over it. I dont think the lion believes he can bring Horus and Gulliman back, he just knows that its bad if no-one is there to protect the imperium (loyalty is its own reward etc) so setting the legion to act as the buffer between all the various parties makes sense. Especially if you consider his upbringing and crusade with the order to protect the people of caliban from the beasts. I also liked the end alot, where the lion decides to place the imperium above caliban and the legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I would rather see Corswain as the first Supreme Grand Master, the last of the Lion's inner Circle, the one who rebuilds the Legion from the ashes if Caliban, because he knew the Lion the best therefore would have been the one to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 true but I always figured the first sgm and cypher were in it together and cyphers secret mission was known only to the sgm and passed down through the millenia. basically the sword is a metaphor for the lions mind and body which are linked to cypgher in someway and only the emperor can join them again. OT: Theres a weird line about the lions hiding some abilities, maybe hes secretly psyhic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I think all the Primarchs have psychic gifts, albeit that some are undeveloped or concentrated on defensive abilities. The Lion's ability to cloak his presence from psychic senses, and repulse psychic intrusions are explicitly mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 true but I always figured the first sgm and cypher were in it together and cyphers secret mission was known only to the sgm and passed down through the millenia. basically the sword is a metaphor for the lions mind and body which are linked to cypgher in someway and only the emperor can join them again. OT: Theres a weird line about the lions hiding some abilities, maybe hes secretly psyhic... That would make no sense considering the Disciples of Caliban, and Cypher been 10k years old IMHO. And i think that more or less all primarchs were psychic to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 never said it was perfect or without massive holes.... :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 never said it was perfect or without massive holes.... ;) Dont worry about that,i was just making my sleazy remarks :P 6th Edition fluff is about to tear a new one if half the rumors are true.Its all about right...ventilation really :blink: So yours is as humane as it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Degas Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 No worries, Im expecting the 6th to give us jet powered thunderlions!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Nemiel was acting like a 40k chaplain. If he was smart he would have said. "I follow these orders under protest." or something like that. The Lion, the last beast of Caliban. Someone before mentioned that its his desire to kill the beast to enforce that he is human. I like that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 So I just finished this, a decent read. I was again thinking about the bit about Nemiel. Regardless of whether it was right or wrong of the Lion, I think the impromptu execution can actually be used as a plot device later. When word of Nemiel's death reaches Caliban how will it affect those already teetering on turning from the Lion? Will it help the agents of Chaos make the Lion out to be the traitor? And how will it affect Zahariel, who was always so close with Nemiel as they climbed the ranks of both the Order and the Dark Angels? Edit: This may have been brought up already - I have some reading to do... forgot about this thread - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...7005&st=225 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I know, I know, I'm late to the party, but I only just finished The Lion. Firstly, the death-dealing judo chop. I was a bit surprised, but upon reflection was ok with it. But the reason for this post is I've noticed something that has yet not been discussed. The device that The Lion captures. It possess' the abilities the wisk people away, extraordinary distances. Could this device be in Cyphers possession, his means of inexplicable excape? Did he steal it? Was it entrusted to him? Am I seeing coincidences? What do you guys think? Cheers, Jono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Good point! Very good point in fact. The plot thickens. -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Rolunde Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 With regards to Lion and his "judo chop." Now as a disclaimer I will note, I do not own and have not read the book. BUT this kind of response from a Primarch can be seen in a few other of the HH novels. Dorn when he b!tch-slapped Garro in The Flight of the Eisenstein. And Lorgar slaps Malcador in The First Heretic. On both accounts the one slapped is knocked away a considerable distance. Malcador suffers obvious broken bones and Garro is pretty messed up and at the least has a dislocated jaw. Both times it seems we can infer the blows were "checked" and not meant to kill. Maybe in this case with Lion, he was just lashing out as Primarchs seem want to do, but in the heat of the moment he didn't check himself and what was meant to be a chastisement resulted in death. From there I can't say if he was then a little impressed with his own power, or a little bit blood thirsty and took some small amount of pleasure simply in the act of cutting lose, or anything else. Just based on what I have read about it, my (second hand) impression is that it was not entirely intended, but as a warrior and a commander not something he was going to feel a lot of grief about. It also does seem to make sense that the "device" is probably what is moving the Rock around and yeah, it could be that Cipher is attuned to it and uses it to get about. Could it be that Cipher is to the Lion what The Sanguinor is to Sanguinius? (possibly "some sort of psychic construct") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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