How playable is Mordrak.

[bebe]

So everyone likes Paladins and Purifiers as the 'best' list for GK. Coteaz is used but truthfully anything that a Coteaz does IG can do better. Don't get me wrong. I think that Draigo and Crowe are decent characters. But why the hate for Mordrak? His fluff is arguably the best in the codex. That in itself hardly makes him playable. His downside is he needs to be supported by fast units which means ...

DSing Terminators or Paladins

Troops in Stormravens

Shunting DKs or GKIS

Well I happen to like a few of these units. Terminators in the GK codex are not too shabby. Sure we have no dedicated asault with SS/Hammer but we do have I6 Halberds and psychic powers. We can take psycannons. And best of all we can take Thawn - really overlooked. Now we use the GM abilities for psychic communion and making troops out of either our DK or GKIS. What about Mordrak and his Knights? He is 25 more points than a regular GM with better stats, an MC Deamonhammer, not an IC (this is important as he can hide in squads) and the ability to generate extra Knights. Factor in his first turn DS that places him safely ANYWHERE on the table and he is a steal. He and his Knights have stealth, sanctuary from a Libbie and best of all warp rift. Sure it is an expensive deathstar. Over 500 points but it can rip through a flank easily. With Hammerhand his hammer has 5 attacks on the charge at S10 to take out any vehicle. This is a pretty flexible unit that de3mands your opponents attention. He cannot let them freely roam his lines. So we need to support him first turn. Therefore we shunt our GKIS and DK. I've been playing my Blood Rodeo BA with occasional forays with my GK Movie Marines.

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/phe..._Flesh_Tearers/

Even after the trade I'll be able to field a 1500 list of BA.

 

I've been offered a basic Mordrak list which I can enhance with my own models. I have 12 terminators of my own and some Interceptors. I could create a list easily. An idea of what I would propose as a core list to work with is:

 

HQ:

Grand Master Mordrak 200

5 Ghost Terminators;: Halberd/Stormbolters (3), Deamonhammer (1) 200

Librarian: MC Halberd, Might Of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift, Teleport Homer 195

 

Elite:

Callidus Assassin 145

 

Troops

5 Terminators: Halberd/Stormbolter (4), MC Deamonhammer/Stormbolter (1), Halberd/Psycannon (1) 230

5 Terminators: Halberd/Stormbolter (4), Deamonhammer/Stormbolter (1), Halberd/Psycannon (1), Justicar Thawn 300

 

Fast Attack

10 Interceptors; Psycannons (2), Deamonhammers (2), Psybolt 320

5 Interceptors: Psycannon(1), Deamonhammer (1) 150

 

Heavy Support

Dreadknight: Heavy Incinerator, Greatsword, Personal Teleporter 260

 

-2000-

34 models

2 - 5 Scoring units

8 KPs

 

t has the potential to be a very solid KP denial list. The two sacrificial units are the DK and Callidus. They will be targeted early. That is not necessarily a bad thing as they draw fire away from the other core units.It seems better for me than my Paladin list, and is easily scalable to be played at anywhere from 1500+. Even a small game is possible at 1250. I'm surprised that I keep reading posts that find Mordrak too much of a 'one trick pony' easily countered. I only expect him to get better in 6ed to boot. As for optimizing this list ...

Well the Callidus is a little weak. I freely admit he is shadow of his former self at a higher cost. But this was necessary as he would be OP in a GK list otherwise. And I have the model. A Vindicare would be out of place unless I dropped the DK for two Psfledreads and altered the mechanics of play. A lone DK is not durable. He has nowhere to hide. So your only means of protecting him is to flood your opponent with other priorities early. Your opponent will have to decide if he wants to protect table quarters, go after KPs or pursue objectives to win. He decides based on what he believes your game goals are. This makes it easier for this type of list to 'jedi mind trick' your opponent into defending positions you are not interested in. Another option would be to drop Thawn or a ghost knight and raise my Libbie to ma level 3 psyker. I'm not sure this is needed. And I've played Thawn. I feel he is worth the steep price tag.

 

Okay. That is my analysis and thoughts. I'm very open to dissenting opinions. Take apart my reasoning. Point out the obvious weaknesses and bad match ups. Not enough ranged AT, too few troops, etc. etc. I'm all ears and welcome any criticisms. I see Mordrak lists as viable. Even a onwe wound terminator is still powerful.

[breng77]

Coteaz is used but truthfully anything that a Coteaz does IG can do better.

 

This is so false it is not even funny....

 

But that aside, Mordrak is not terrible just not optimal either. The major issue with your list is that it is functioning off of reserves. If you go second You are liable to take a pounding on whatever is deployed, if you reserve everything, you risk coming in piecemeal.

 

The problem with Mordrak is that he can only run with Ghost Knights, who cannot take shooting upgrades. And are not super in the assault. So they drop in and try to soak up fire, but are just as likely to die in a single turn.

[nurglez]

Shrouding gives stealth, Mordrak comes with stealth, stealth doesn't stack ;)

 

I like Mordrak, yet to try him out though, as i feel you have to design a list around him (I use Draigo wing so this isn't a huge issue).

 

Quite a few people seem to think that if you take mordrak, you must deepstrike him in, and as you want him close, that will be in front of the whole enemy army. you can easily use him to threaten a flank (but the unit only moves 6 inches, people can avoid that) relying on cover, or enemy units or what ever.

 

A shunting dk + interceptors seem the right idea, but then you are basically designing your list to alpha strike the enemy, which can be countered by your opponent reserving everything.

 

I do agree that Mordrak needs a secondary HQ, a libby is a good choice but brings your 6 terminator unit up to almost 600 points for something that can be taken out with a lucky demolisher cannon, and is a sizable chunk of non troop army (I often play at 1500 points).

 

I do intend to try him out, but I am feeling a bit drained of grey knight's at the moment, and need to work on my dark eldar a bit. So many lists I want to try out...

[the jeske]

Coteaz is used but truthfully anything that a Coteaz does IG can do better.

that is false. IG can not get unstunlockable rifleman ,razors or cant mix good counter assault for ultra cheap with power armor support units[with psycannons].

 

mordrak is bad because he is a melee dude without the abilty to charge after he deep strike . that is why a multi wound paladin deathstar does better then a mordrak one . same cost , but paladins shot more[2x the cannons] and take more wounds before losing enough dudes to make the unit bad[+they have an uber soaker in the form of draigo. mordrak cant do that]. so having a hidden GM thunder hammer doesnt realy help the list . not when you could just take 2 hammers on normal dudes and have the same effect . And if there are units in the game that require you to charge with 4xTH[GM counting as 2 guys with hammers] then it is probably a good idea not to charge it or at least wait with the charge till 4 TH are no longer needed [and again paladin Death stars do it twice as fast as modrak ones].

[Circus Nurgling]

Well I have just enough terminators to make a ghost knight retinue, and a spare Stern model that's dying to be converted... I really don't care if it's competitive or not, as most people in my play group play themed lists as opposed to spam lists... I'll try him out.

 

I swear I'm going to end up with something like 4000 points worth of grey knights before it's over... there isn't much in this codex I don't like.

[bebe]

Mordrak and Draigo play differently. I have a Draigo list. Draigo with Paladins are an expensive unit too. I can get a Libbie and Mordrak to have warp rift ... it is pretty decent as a psychic power and stormbolters are not useless. I'm thinking that Mordrak is the big distraction. No he cannot assault on the first turn. But turn two I have the interceptors, DK and reserve squads DSing to a homer if needed. Stealth should limit my casualties and as long as I'm not going to suffer an ID wound I can spawn extra knights by putting a wound on Mordrak. How is a hidden MC Hammer with five attacks not a good thing? Not trying to be difficult but surely it has its uses. As for speed ... well both Paladins and Mordrak are slow but he can be placed anywhere turn one and bring in reserves reliably.

 

A lucky demolisher cannon shot is bad news for any list. There is not much you can do about that, regardless if you play paladins or terminators. My unit is 560 points, btw and I could even drop a ghost knight but I'm not sure where to spend the extra 40 points. I'm not going to debate how good five Knights, Mordrak and Libbie are in assault. They are not shabby against most units and can handle tanks and infantry.

 

I expected flak over my Coteaz comment. This is an Inquisition forum. Again, maybe in a different thread I will explain my reasoning as I worded it badly, admittedly. I think Hydra batteries, Vendettas, SWS teams, Devil Dogs and Chimeras in an IG match up favorably with razor Coteaz spam.

 

I do worry about the major weakness of the Mordrak list. If my opponent decides to reserve everything. I'm wondering if I should add servo-skulls. I'm sure I could find ten points. And as for shrouding - it is not for the Mordrak unit. It is for whatever might DS to the homer. I might not use it in a game. It is really a bit of insurance.

[breng77]

No reason to to try it out but, I've not seen it be successful yet. As for cotaez vs. IG it is fairly even and comes down to penetratin dice. But cotaez fairs better against many lists that meta well against IG.

[nurglez]

for some reason I assumed that the shrouding was there to help mordrak's squad, oops :)

 

I get the feeling that after using paladins, regular terminators will just seem a bit tame ;)

[the jeske]

How is a hidden MC Hammer with five attacks not a good thing?

because you can get the same thing without using the HQ slot by buying 2 terminators/paladins ?

 

They are not shabby against most units and can handle tanks and infantry.

that is true , if somehow your opponent charges them [with units that cant deal with them] or moves in without melta class weapons [or moves closer but doesnt shot them at all] or in the case of tanks moves them closer without it being part of a tank shock/wall . The problem with mordrak is that he cant handle deathstar class units while not being cheap and if he is a base of a deep strike assault turn 2 , he will eat the fire power from a lot of units . I mean against an IG list he would get hit hard by melta vets and vendettas.

 

 

 

 

I think Hydra batteries, Vendettas, SWS teams, Devil Dogs and Chimeras in an IG match up favorably with razor Coteaz spam.

there is no such a thing that can balance a gunline lists unabilty to get stun locked . IG would have to be twice as numerouse or twice as shoty or twice as resilient . specialy as on a unit per unit base a cortez list is cheaper.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

@bebe: As you can see it's pretty hard to get positive comments about any troop choice which doesn't consist of Paladins/Purifiers/Henchmen/Riflemen or any list concept which isn't Draigowing, Corteaz Henchmen spam or Purifier spam here on BaC. It's sad that people treat only these concepts as tournament worthy (and everyone plays only them) when they have a flexible codex with lots of different viable and powerful concepts in it.

 

As it seems that I'm the only one so far in this thread besides the OP who has any actual experience with fielding Mordrak I'll give my 50Cents.

 

First thing that people have to realize is that there are multiple ways to field him.

While he can be used as the centre for a reserve heavy deep strike list he's also the most effective way to get Grand Strategy into any list.

 

While he can't take Auto Win Grenades like a normal Grand Master you'll soon find out that a regular GM needs both a retinue and a transport to get to his intended target (unless you intend to footslog or to go risky with a unreliable deep strike which will allow him to charge turn 3 in a best case szenario). The only transports which are available to models clad in TDA are Storm Ravens or Land Raiders however, which are at least another 205+ points you'll have to pay on top of your retinue and the GM easily pushing the total cost of the squad above 600 points.

Mordrak however comes with his own transport for free. Even if you take the recommended 5 Ghosts as a retinue you'll still only pay 400 points for powered up GM (which is alot harder to kill thanks to the retinue rule) + stealth GK terminators, the chance to produce even more expensive 40 point models for free and Grand Strategy. This means you'll have another 200+ points you'll be able to invest into the rest of your list resulting in more bodies on the table (which is a huge deal in an army which tends to suffer from a low model count).

 

Another fact that most people often forget is that you DON'T have to add a Scriptor to Mordrak and his ghost buddies. Unless you intend to put a teleport homer and The Summoning into your list (= you want to play a reserve heavy list) I would never ever take one (because it turns the whole unit into one giant point sink). For lousy 80 points you can take a Malleus Inquisitor in TDA with NDH and a Psycannon instead. One of the points people love to hate about when using Mordrak is the fact that his Ghosts can't buy any Heavy Weapons. With the Inquisitor however you get 3 wounds, stubborn for the whole unit, access to cheap servo skulls and henchmen and +1A for only 15 points more than what a regular Terminator with a Psycannon costs. Obviously a 4 shot Psycannon will profit from Mordrak's pin-point deep strike easily getting shots at side or rear armour.

 

For 480 points you can get a squad of 7 TDA models which boosts your whole army with GS and is alot tougher to kill than people make it out to be. if you place only 50% of the squad into cover you'll gain a 3++ cover save. The risk of losing a wound to dangerous terrain tests is quite slim, especially if only 4 models are taking these tests and neither Mordrak nor the Inquisitor will care much if they lose a wound. The benefits from the improved cover save far outweights any risk involved. With it the squad is as hard to kill as TH/SS terminators with AP 1/2 weapons and is also able to take quite alot of punishment from smaller guns with Mordrak's and the Inquisitor's abillity to soak small arms wounds (remember the Inquisitor profits from the squad's majority toughness being 4 against shooting) and the chance of producing even more meat shield Terminators with any wound Mordrak actually suffers. In the end it often takes more than the firepower of a whole army to take these guys down which'll take alot of pressure from the rest of your list. Your opponent will be forced to decide if he'll either commit serious firepower to take out that unit of Terminators with 12 wounds which just popped up besides an isolated yet important support unit (or the 5 men squad holding the home objective) or the rest of your army advancing forward or taking out huge chunks of his army through massed shooting. If his army mostly consists of assault elements (like BA or Orks) he'll be forced to split his army so he can take care of the threat in his backfield, making it much easier for a shooting heavy GK list to delay combat and focus fire those units nearest to them. Especially slow armies like FootDar might never recover from the turns of extra movement they were spending moving back and forth again.

 

Many people agree that while the squad has a certain potential as an assault unit it'll easily be taken out by CC deathstars right after it's landing. However it is not as easy to get into combat with Mordrak with such units as people make it out to be. After all the GK player can place Mordrak ANYWHERE on the table. So it should be obvious that no player with a certain tactical understanding will place the unit right in front of the enemy army or next to the only unit of the opponent who will be able to reliably to take them out in an assault. Instead they'll place Mordrak and his buddies where they can deal alot of damage while being relatively save using terrain, limited lines of sight to their position or even elements of the enemy army standing in the way of the opponents hard hitting units as cover. No matter what kind of list you'll have to play against there'll almost always be some sort of powerful yet fragile long range support like Long Fangs, Manticores or Obiterators or a tiny and easy to kill Troop unit trying to hold the home objective while the rest of the army tries to move in for the kill. These units will simply not be able to deal with Mordrak's squad through assault (while not being super awesum in CC you'll still need a deathstar type unit to deal with them) or shooting (3+ cover save). They'll also not get out of the assault range of a squad standing 1" away by running away. These units make for easy targets for Mordrak and his Terminators while the rest of the enemy army tries to get in touch with them. Unless you're playing against a tactical genius or a horde player able to cover the whole table with models there'll almost always be a soft or blind spot in the enemy deployment you'll be able to use with huge impact.

 

 

Mordrak has the most synergy with a shunt heavy alpha strike list with two Shunt-Dreadknights and maybe some Interceptors. These units effectiveness increases by huge amount when they get able to launch assaults in turn thanks to a free 12" scout move that'll also take pressure from Mordrak and his squad. Ghostwing type of reserve lists also get alot better with Mordrak+Ghosts+Scriptor albeit it'll result in Mordrak's squad taking massive punishment before the reserves arrive turn 2. In any other list (except Draigowing) Mordrak will be more than just a viable choice thanks to the cheap army buff and his huge distraction and surgical strike potential. I had good results with Mordrak in a higly competitive environment and he is my preffered HQ choice for most of my GK builds. If even half of the current 6.Ed rumours turn out to be true Mordrak will get even better with the abillity to assault after his deployment.

 

I hope that I somewhat helped with my comment even with my English being less than stellar :D.

[bebe]

Basically how i view the tactics as well. Never really gave much thought to using an Inquisitor but idf I took one I could drop the Callidus and field an extra squad of terminators. I'll lose sanctuary and warp rift but gain rad, psychostroke grenades, a psycannon and three servo skulls. Could be useful.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

I'll lose sanctuary and warp rift but gain rad, psychostroke grenades, a psycannon and three servo skulls. Could be useful.

I hate to tell you, but only the Xenos Inquisitor can take rad and psycho grenades while only the Malleus Inquisitor can take TDA and Psycannons.

[the jeske]

Obviously a 4 shot Psycannon will profit from Mordrak's pin-point deep strike easily getting shots at side or rear armour.

and the same can be done just by taking servo skulls + the range psycannons have is not 6" like melta so actual unit placment doesnt matter as much to get out of side armor one would realy have to scater 10-12" in the case of rhino class sized targets to end up in the front/back instead of side. + what you are not saying is that by taking an inq with a psycannon you just used up a HQ slot and 100pts to do it . that is trading a GM , a free HQ slot for a libby[or you cant take an psy INQ] and a normal unit of termis[so minimum 1 more psycannon] for the "pin point deep strike" , which you can get anyway with servo skulls. that doesnt seem like a gain good enough to warrent the taking of mordrak.

 

Instead they'll place Mordrak and his buddies where they can deal alot of damage while being relatively save using terrain,

with that one psycannon and some storm bolters ? man then I guess two psycannon terminator units are even twice as dangerous[and those with a 3ed attached by taking an inq wiht one like your propose are some sort of unit of total shoty doom]. +as the save part goes . why are you assuming that all the other armies [in a mech edition] have a 12" or under treate range , so a deep strike outside of that could keep a unit of terminators safe? yes there are slow units , but they A outshot mordrak[iG for example has a few of those] or both out melee and out shot mordrak[paladins].

 

 

 

hey'll also not get out of the assault range of a squad standing 1" away by running away.

first of all am having doubts about the 1" away because that would mean those units are standing in the open , but anyway. So you land near a fire base and charge or mulit charge right ? now assuming you run on the turn you deep strike [else your eating blast from the oblits and mant] this still means your opponent has a whole turn to counter [and if he moves and runs , then you may end up out of charge range. if there is terrain or if he is in the open and rolls a 6 or if he tank shocks you away.] Both in the case of IG, SW and chaos the mordrak unit will never be just in the range of the target unit. IG castle up most of the time and SW have a treat range for their counter units[that is not counting the razor build which will castle up] , + they can slow you down with RP and deep striking units will be out of range for the reinforced aegis ,so there is a good chance it will work . for oblits you will be facin 4-6-9 of those so you are taking twin linked plasma shots thats with rapid fire 16 at least with the smallest set up of oblits[kind of a like playing 1k points where mordrak doesnt realy fit in , but anyway] . 9-10 hit . 7-8 wound you should lose 3 dudes . as counter units chaos will have the same range as SW unless they use zerkers. So again I dont realy see how this should happen specialy as it is not like mordrak arrives turn 2+ where the main block of the enemy army could be far away from the support unit . and the losing of mordrak and his knights is a lose of more then 1/3 of your army .

[bebe]

No doubt there are weaknesses. I'm going with the Libbie build and servoskulls over a teleport homer. I think with interceptors and DK and Mordrak I can crack a castled IG list. I might face nine plasma shots on turn one but I doubt it. I can place my guys where they will be out of LOS if i have to. I don't think Mordrak plays well at 1000 points against certain lists - but I hate playing 1K games anyway. And I think Warp Rift plus Sanctuary is the better deal even though it makes the squad pretty damned expensive. Do remember Mordrak has stealth. And Paladins die to plasma as well. And take longer to get into cc so they rely on their psycannons and two wounds more. I've played draigowing. It is strong. I won't deny that. I'm looking at Mordrak though - I'm not running comparisons as the lists are completely different styles.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

and the same can be done just by taking servo skulls + the range psycannons have is not 6" like melta so actual unit placment doesnt matter as much to get out of side armor one would realy have to scater 10-12" in the case of rhino class sized targets to end up in the front/back instead of side. + what you are not saying is that by taking an inq with a psycannon you just used up a HQ slot and 100pts to do it . that is trading a GM , a free HQ slot for a libby[or you cant take an psy INQ] and a normal unit of termis[so minimum 1 more psycannon] for the "pin point deep strike" , which you can get anyway with servo skulls. that doesnt seem like a gain good enough to warrent the taking of mordrak.

That argument is flawed:

1. any other unit than Mordrak will arrive turn 2 at best. That means the target unit will had a turn or even more of shooting at your army. That's not good news if you're playing against stuff like LR: Executioners or LRs with Battlecannons which'll enjoy blasting away at your infantry as Guard players tend to have no problem cracking APCs open.

2. With any other unit than Mordrak you'll have to rely on Servo Skulls to prevent the risk of a 2D6 scatter which might end up in a Mishap. As your opponent will have at least one turn before your deep strike units arrive to remove your Skills. Even if your opponent fails that it still remains a risky and unreliable strategy.

3. Not all tanks you'll try to shoot after the deep strike will have a soft side/front armor like a Rhino does. Because of Mordraks reliability you'll want to take out a valuable and otherwise hard to kill support unit like for example a Leman Russ Executioner and the like. It should be obvious that you'll have serious problems to take out a tank with a 14/13/10 AV if you scatter in front of it instead of simply popping up behind it's rear.

4. If you're taking an Inquisitor you do it because you want to save points in the HQ section (after all you're already taking Mordrak and his Ghosts, right ;-)?) and because you want a Psycannon for the squad which is only 15 points more expensive than a regular PC terminator with added advantages (so if you don't want the psycannon you simpy don't buy the Inquisitor). In that case a Scriptor would not be an option either (because he expensive). You also seem to forget that Mordrak also buys you Grand Strategy: The main reason why you want to include a GM into your list. A point I put quite a lot of emphasis on in my last post. Could it be that you're simply ignoring parts of my post which threaten your standpoint so it becomes easier to criticice me?

If you think that you don't need GS or that it doesn't fit into your list you're obviously better of with a Scritor or an alternative HQ instead. But if you wanna have GS coupled with a somewhat capable CC-HQ without paying through the nose for an expensive Storm Raven or Land Raider, Mordrak offers you the cheapest way to get that rule.

 

with that one psycannon and some storm bolters ? man then I guess two psycannon terminator units are even twice as dangerous[and those with a 3ed attached by taking an inq wiht one like your propose are some sort of unit of total shoty doom]. +as the save part goes . why are you assuming that all the other armies [in a mech edition] have a 12" or under treate range , so a deep strike outside of that could keep a unit of terminators safe? yes there are slow units , but they A outshot mordrak[iG for example has a few of those] or both out melee and out shot mordrak[paladins].

Stop ascribing stuff I haven't said ^^. Of course most stuff has more thant a 12" thread range, however the point of Mordrak's deployment is to limit the amount shooting the opponent's army can point at them by reducing lines of sight and by preventing hard hitting CC units to easily engage Mordrak after his landing by deep striking a certain distance away from them. For example a squad of Longfangs or Heavy weapon teams will hardly be able to reallocate and shoot afterwards if a ruin or a wall is blocking the LOS to Mordrak. That Trygon or Swarmlord Deathstar at the other side of the opponents deployment zone will surely need more than one turn to get in CC with Mordrak (giving the rest of your army more time to shoot them). The less stuff the enemy has to deal with Mordrak the harder the unit gets to kill. As I said it takes quite alot of firepower to deal with a unit of terminators which have both a 3+ cover save and are quite resistant to small-arms fire thanks to a 2+ save, the additional wounds the =I= and Mordrak provide and Mordrak's ability to spawn even more Terminators. They are much harder to kill than an equal amount of points of regular terminators ( 10 models [10 Terminators with 2 Psycannons] with 10 wounds and a 4+ cover save (if any) vs. 7 models with 12 wounds and a 3+ cover save). While the Terminators might be indeed more shooty (they have after all twice the amount of shots) that can somewhat be negated by Mordrak's deployment (rear/side armor shots). The regular terminators however do not boost your whole army with Grand Strategy and have not such a huge distraction potential as Mordrak does.

 

 

first of all am having doubts about the 1" away because that would mean those units are standing in the open , but anyway. So you land near a fire base and charge or mulit charge right ? now assuming you run on the turn you deep strike [else your eating blast from the oblits and mant] this still means your opponent has a whole turn to counter [and if he moves and runs , then you may end up out of charge range. if there is terrain or if he is in the open and rolls a 6 or if he tank shocks you away.] Both in the case of IG, SW and chaos the mordrak unit will never be just in the range of the target unit. IG castle up most of the time and SW have a treat range for their counter units[that is not counting the razor build which will castle up] , + they can slow you down with RP and deep striking units will be out of range for the reinforced aegis ,so there is a good chance it will work . for oblits you will be facin 4-6-9 of those so you are taking twin linked plasma shots thats with rapid fire 16 at least with the smallest set up of oblits[kind of a like playing 1k points where mordrak doesnt realy fit in , but anyway] . 9-10 hit . 7-8 wound you should lose 3 dudes . as counter units chaos will have the same range as SW unless they use zerkers. So again I dont realy see how this should happen specialy as it is not like mordrak arrives turn 2+ where the main block of the enemy army could be far away from the support unit . and the losing of mordrak and his knights is a lose of more then 1/3 of your army .

Unit's don't have stand in the open, support units like Longfangs or Oblits tend to stay in terrain so they get a 4+ cover save and good lines of sight (hills for example). As you do not scatter you can place Mordrak and his unit exactly 1" away from the enemy no matter if there is terrain or not. Even if you're forced to take terrain tests you'll more than likely catch up with your target unit if they try to run away and shoot at them (after all they'll have to take terrain tests too). If they decide to move and run they'll forego shooting (which is quite a huge deal if you're talking about Obliterators or Long Fangs which would otherwise de-mech your army) and you might still catch them depending on your dice rolls. While a IG castle or tank castle is a problem for deep strike units in general you usually still have the means as a GK player to take out the APC you're landing next to with Mordrak (Mordrak's psycannon/Riflemen etc.) thus enabling your unit to charge the dudes falling out of the wreck. While TWC are a threat for Mordrak with their huge range they'll still take quite a beating if they decide to assault (Hammerhand + Force Weapons [don't forget you can cast 1 power for the Ghosts and Mordrak each]. Even if a Rune Priest is present and your first Hammerhand fails you can still try again for a 4 Attack WS 6 master crafted S10 NDH instant killing these Thunderwolves) just as well as regular troops like Grey Hunters will (after all the squad has still some halberds and hammerhand, not counting how hard the unit is to kill to kill with regular attacks before Mordrak and the Inquisitor kill another 4-5 hunters). Your example with the oblits is a good way to show how valuable Mordrak can be. All of the enemies oblits fired at Mordrak's squad and killed only 3 models, still leaving 4 of them (in case Mordrak failed to spawn additional Terminators which is quite likely). That's about all the firepower a CSM list has to offer nowadays. Now imagine all that Oblits would have shot at the rest of your army instead with Lascannons/whatever. There wouldn't be many of your Dreadnoughts or Razors/Rhinos left to put up much of a fight. The rest of your army gets a full turn of shooting/advancing without being shot at. If you play with 2 scouting Dreadnights and Mordrak that might as well prove fatal for your enemy because the Dreadknights will charge before your enemy gets another turn of shooting. Next turn Mordrak charges in and kills the squad of oblits which are standing next to it. In a 1500 points list Mordrak is slightly less than 1/3 of my army, however if he ate the whole firepower of the enemy army for 2 full turns, buffed my army with Grand Strategy and took out a valuable support unit he already fullfilled his purpose. The chance to multi charge multiple weaker units is always welcome but if it means that I'll have to expose the squad to an increased amount of shooting or the charge of a deathstar I'll rather pick out one unit at a time if I can land next to a more isolated element of the enemy army thus the squad will be a deadly distraction for an increased amount of turns.

 

To sum it up:

Mordrak + 5 Ghosts + Inquisitor might be less shooty or assaulty than the same points invested in Paladins or regular Terminators. However his true strength comes from the sum of all of his abillities:

1. he gives your army Grand Strategy for cheap [compared to any other regual GM or Draigo (who'll need a Paladin Wall)]. That often can prove to be worth the 200 points you invest into a single model

2. he can arrive anywhere on the table turn 1 and adds a huge distraction factor which has great synergy with an Alphastrike type Shuntlist. Depending on the situation only a limited amount of enemy troops will be able to react to his presence.

3. With Stealth, the additional wounds provided by Mordrak and the Inquisitor and Mordrak's ability to summon even more terminators the squad will often be able to withstand the firepower of a whole army for at least one turn.

4. While the shooting might not be impressive on first glance the Inquisitor Psycannon still enables you to shoot at weak side/rear armor of vehicles (effective against tanks like Russes or Battlewaggons) while they deploy next to another target like Oblits or Long Fangs (shooting at these units with 10 S4 shots would be a waste most of the time and running to spread out is only needed when threatened by S8+ pie plates)

5. While they might not be able to take out enemy Deathstars or hordes they will be superior in CC compared to most other things in the game with 5 halberds which can be powered up to S6 by casting Hammerhand twice and Mordrak's huge damage potential (4 Ws6 S10 attacks with a MC-NDH) without suffering from the risk of being singled-out in combat.

[bebe]

I'm so confused. I'm thinking of using the Inquisitor again. You make some very persuasive arguments. Now he can take servoskulls right. And the only grenades he is allowed are empyrian brain mines correct?

[nurglez]

Aye, terminator equipped inquisitor (ordo malleus) can only take brain mines as a funky grenade type thing. Though psychic communion or hammer hand could be useful too :yes:

 

Remember if you equip him with a psycannon that he doesn't have to use it. It's an option, running might be the better choice after s deepstrike.

 

Meh, now I wanna try out mordrak...

[number6]

@bebe: As you can see it's pretty hard to get positive comments about any troop choice which doesn't consist of Paladins/Purifiers/Henchmen/Riflemen or any list concept which isn't Draigowing, Corteaz Henchmen spam or Purifier spam here on BaC.

I still don't get the love of Paladins. They die like flies in my neck of the woods. Not a good unit, and Draigowing armies are not considered competitive because ... well ... they don't win.

 

Beyond that, I definitely agree that there is WAY more to the GK codex than Grand Masters, Paladins, Purifiers, and Coteaz. But nobody seems to care much. It's become like a religion: no amount of actual success outside of those limited concepts is given any weight because the masses have already decided what is tourney worthy, and thus that is all you see at tourneys.

 

I play with Mordrak, and I think he's fine. He's not "optimal" in that his unit can't get psycannons and he's carrying a sub-optimal weapon for a Grand Master. (A sword or halberd would be superior options.) But that said, you're only paying 25 pts over the cost of a normal GM to get a potent disruption unit that can show up wherever you want on turn 1 while not having to give up Grand Strategy. If you build a list around the guy -- easy to do with Grand Strategy in the mix -- he can be the core of a very aggressive, in your face GK army.

 

I like him. A lot. :yes: He makes for a GK army that plays quite differently from any other 40K army, and even any other GK army.

[breng77]

I play with Mordrak, and I think he's fine. He's not "optimal" in that his unit can't get psycannons and he's carrying a sub-optimal weapon for a Grand Master. (A sword or halberd would be superior options.) But that said, you're only paying 25 pts over the cost of a normal GM to get a potent disruption unit that can show up wherever you want on turn 1 while not having to give up Grand Strategy. If you build a list around the guy -- easy to do with Grand Strategy in the mix -- he can be the core of a very aggressive, in your face GK army.

 

You just said it right there, he is Not Optimal...that does not mean he is bad, but when someone comes on says, x, y, z armies are no good, but my design has no flaws, it begs for negativity. I pointed out 2 possible issues with the list if played against competitive lists (I have played against mordrak before, his unit did not survive the first turn). Is he playable...yes, can you win games with a list built around him...yes, should you expect an uphill fight and probably the need to be better than your opponent if you face an optimized list...yes. I've listed my issues with the particular unit. It sometimes seems when people post lists on here they are only looking to hear, positive feed back ( usually would want the opposite.) and when you get what I would consider constructive criticism, it becomes either an indictment of other armies, or a treatise on how what ever was stated is wrong or won't happen.

 

Pros original list.

 

Relatively low KPs.

Decent Alpha strike potential

Libbies are always good.

Good Mobility in several choices

 

Cons

Lots of points in a unit that will be exposed to enemy fire early and lacks the necessary durability and damage output to justify the cost.

Lack of scoring units/flexibility in use of GS (in objective missions you will always use scoring, if you play missions with all 3 book missions/multiple missions like NOVA you will always choose scoring)

Reliance on Reserves for mobility in scoring units

Lack of ranged anti-tank (5 psycannons is not enough.)

Vunerability against good assaulty and good shooty armies.

Low Model count

Relatively soft KPs (yes they are termies, but small squads, and a lot of your stuff will be in your opponents face if you want to deal damage.)

 

IMO in order of Mordrak to be viable in a highly competitive Meta, Ghost Knights would need to be able to take psycannons, or at least psybolts. It can be a good army, but I believe it will struggle against top tier competitive builds. That said, with a good player, and lots of experience it may perform well because people are unfamiliar with it.

[bebe]

Oh, I am open to criticism. I do see the weaknesss. You need to shunt or use Stromravens IMHO. At least that is what I think,. But you will not get by the low model count and limited scoring units. And I agree - 90% of the time GMs will be making units scoring.

I am considering a build like this ...

 

HQ: 440

 

Grand Master Mordrak 200

4 Ghost Terminators: Halberd/Stormbolters (4) 160

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: Psycannon, Deamonhammer 80

 

Elite: 145

 

Callidus Assassin 145

 

Troops 450

 

5 Terminators, Halberd/Stormbolter (3), Deamonhammer/Stormbolter (1), Halberd/Psycannon (1) 225

5 Terminators, Halberd/Stormbolter (2), Deamonhammer/Stormbolter (1), Halberd/Psycannon (1) 225

 

Fast Attack 730

 

Storm Raven Gunship: Twin-linked Multi-Meltas, Twin-Linked Assault cannons, Mindstrike Missiles (4) 205

Storm Raven Gunship: Twin-linked Multi-Meltas, Twin-Linked Assault cannons, Mindstrike Missiles (4) 205

10 Interceptors, Psycannons (2), Deamonhammers (2), Psybolt Ammunition 320

 

Heavy Support 235

 

Dreadknight, Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists (2), Personal Teleporter 235

 

This only because you are less reliant on alpha strike and reserve manipulation. Alternatively I could drop ravens for more interceptors and add thawn and psychic communion to the inquisitor. But then reserves and alpha strike gain more importance.

[nurglez]

The main thing I can think off regarding Mordrak, is that you don't have to deep strike him near your opponent.

 

I've played some games with my loganwing where I deepstrike near them (drop pods win) and jump out, popping tanks and messing up units, other games, my opponent castles up so I decide to not drop near them, and it throws them.

 

Of course if you drop Mordrak in front of the enemy with no cover, he will probably die. The problem with judging things on the internet (I've said it before and I'll say it again no doubt) is that playing style counts for a lot.

 

I've had good success with my Draigo wing, and I use it because I love low model count elite armies. I've taken it to 3 tournaments (all rather non competitive) and had great fun with it. I can see how MSU armies work at what they do, but I seriously doubt I will do as well with them, as thats not my style (I have a psyrifle dread, and a contemptor that I will make a venerable psyrifle dread, yet I dislike them, and only intend to use them at 2000+ points as they are too cost effective).

 

I've spent time looking at "net lists" and have never tried them, though I may take parts of them that I like and put my own spin on it.

 

The reason I like the grey knight codex so much is because a lot of the units are balanced (in my opinion anyway), I love the idea of interceptors, purgation squads, DK's etc. Coteaz is rather overpowered in what he can do, but I feel thats a fault of people who play him that way as much as it is the codex (same with dual lash, or longfang spam, or leaf blower or nob bikers).

 

Slightly OT so back to the topic :)

 

Mordrak is cool, have fun using him (and remember you don't have to drop him in first turn, he could have fun riding in a storm :D ).

[Crynn]

Coteaz is used but truthfully anything that a Coteaz does IG can do better.

 

This is so false it is not even funny....

 

But that aside, Mordrak is not terrible just not optimal either. The major issue with your list is that it is functioning off of reserves. If you go second You are liable to take a pounding on whatever is deployed, if you reserve everything, you risk coming in piecemeal.

 

The problem with Mordrak is that he can only run with Ghost Knights, who cannot take shooting upgrades. And are not super in the assault. So they drop in and try to soak up fire, but are just as likely to die in a single turn.

 

+1 to both points. I have a cotweaz list that is just so vile I can't begin to comment.

 

Off that topic, your list is fine for what you want, Mordark is okay but far from optimal as are many other choices in the list, terminators over strikes the assassin, dread knight. It's a fun list but you aren't playing to many strengths of the gk codex. If you want to run a reserve list properly lose the lib and get a inquisitor with termy armour a psycannon, 3x servo skuls and Psychic communion power and put him with mordrack. Now you can start everything off the board and when mordrack comes on with his ghost knights he brings the inquisitor along who can use his psycannon, you can place them out of harms way away from psychic defence and now your reserves will arive on 2+ turn 2 instead of a 3+. You will also have another 50 points to spare.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[bebe]

If you want to run a reserve list properly lose the lib and get a inquisitor with termy armour a psycannon, 3x servo skuls and Psychic communion power and put him with mordrack.

 

It is a valid approach. Or I can have list that does not rely on reserves and use Storm Ravens. Now I can start everything on the board IF I choose to. This leaves me some flexibility if i decide to go reserves but allows me a more flexible list..

 

terminators over strikes the assassin, dread knight.

 

I'll take the terminators. I like their save when facing small arms fire, and in combat and the free halberds. In my BA Blood Rodeo list I often run them as a deathstar with a termie priest. Of course they have shields nad FNP. I could take force swords but I prefer not to. I'll run them in squads of six if i take the ravens. I'm thinking of replacing the dreadknight with a couple of psyfledreads. The assassin probably have to go as well. Much as I like him he is not his former self. That does not make Mordrak a bad choice. Mordrak can be played in different ways. I see the key as having supporting units in my opponents face early turn one. I can still shunt Interceptors and use transports for my terminators. It does not invalidate Mordrak. I did say I was not set on a list. I still see the list working with any of these combinations:

 

A DS psychic communion list.

A shunting list to move up turn one.

A SR list to move up turn one.

 

I'm not tied to any concept yet although I'm leaning towards the inquisitor over the librarian. I'm not committed to use dreadknights or to using assassins. I'm wexploring the weaknesses of a Mordrak build but I'm looking at its strengths as well. I'm not new to 40k. I have played Deamonhunters for years. I have played with the new GK codex. I'm aware of some of their strengths and am thinking of how to add some to the list - psyfles as an example. GMs are another of their strengths. I have not yet played dual storm ravens. I have a BA list with ravens though. I know they can be taken down at 2000 points. I'm hoping if i add a few psyfledreads they will not be the sole targets of the whole opposing force as they are a fair chunk of the list at 2000.

 

I have a cotweaz list that is just so vile I can't begin to comment.

 

I believe you have a decent Coteaz list. I've seen them ... acolyte spam in razors. They are not vile or unbeatable. A little nasty at times. I've seen very nasty IG lists too. You castle your razors they castle their tanks. Again a different topic.

[Stormshadow]

I like to play Mordrak in 2000pts games.

 

But because I am more of a brute and less of a tactician I use him together with Draigo. This I stupid I know, an Inquisitor would bring skulls, henchmen and a Psycanon to the table, and a Librarian would bring, sanctuary, summoning and Warp Rift (also skulls). All Draigo does is… Sticking around? The upside is that as long as he is sticking around, good things seem to happen :).

 

In my latest game with Mordrak I played against an extremely shooty Eldar army (aren’t they always :P). I had Mordrak together with Draigo and 4 Ghost knights, A Storm raven with teleport homer, a venerable Dreadnought, two five man paladin squads and a Dread Knight With all the trimmings.

 

My opponent won the roll and decided to go second. His reserves would come in turn 2 on a 2+ just like mine, and I could tell that he was going to reserve everything. So I deployed Mardrak and Draigo in the middle of the board right outside of his deployment zone (in cover) and started to brag about how super indestructible my super elite squad was. I also deployed one Paladin squad and the dread in the Strmraiven and reserved the DK and the other Paladins. Turn two my DK kame in from reserve, and landed via deep strike far off to the side, out of sight, and my Stormraven turbo boosted into ambush position. My opponent took the bait and his entire army came in from reserve on his turn two, right in front of Draigo and the boys. He was about to teach me a lesson about putting a third of your points in one unit and how hero hammer didn’t work. After his shooting phase was over, and he had aimed every shoot on my HQ, only Mordrak was still standing. In my turn three my last paladins joined the party, deep striking 6” in front of my Raven, the Raven rolled up and disembarked the Paladins and Ven Dread and the DK moved 30” into optimal shooting position. After my shooting phase was over, he had nothing left to threaten my army with, from there on we just went through the motions until turn six when I was declared winner.

 

Mordrak is definitely a fun way to mess with your opponent. And he is an Absolut GOD in Apocalypse games :o

[Gentlemanloser]

I've always liked Mordrak.

 

Thought he was the most interesting SC we got (for rules and fluff).

 

One thing that's been missed off is he's not just 25 points more expensive than a GKGM, but if you take into account the free Terminators he *will* give you, he's actually cheaper.

 

(As long as he doesn't die to ID, and lose you an entire Squad of course. Which is his major downside)

 

On average Mordrak will give you 2 free GKT per game. Making his 200 point cost in essence give you a GKGM + 2x GKT all for that extra 25 points (Or if you take away the cost of 2 GKT from Mordrak, he only costs you 120 points).

 

120 Points for TGS? Yes Please!

 

Just don't let him soak any ID inflicting hits!