I wonder if...

[Coryphaus 101]

I was just thinking... Are the Chaos Gods smarter than we thought? Did they, like the Cabal, realise to win they had to lose and so set Horus up to hesitate at the last moment and die?

 

If you think about it, it makes sense. The Gods corrupted Horus, causing the Imperium to plunge into a seven year long civil war, during which time they thrived from the death and general chaos. They chose Horus over anyone not just because he was the Warmaster and had the leverage and charisma to cause a heresy, but also because of they knew he would hesitate at the last moment, allowing the Emperor to kill him and plunging humanity into darkness etc. etc. Thoughts?

[Vincent val Munshin]

It's entirely possible. Even makes sense, makes the universe even darker. But if they're really that good, sorta makes the whole fighting them pointless, I guess.

[Billuriye]

Chaos is sure smart but i don't think everything has gone exactly as they planned. It is heavily implied that Emperor has yet to play his trump card and that his sacrifice was intentional on his side.

[Legatus]

I was just thinking... Are the Chaos Gods smarter than we thought? Did they, like the Cabal, realise to win they had to lose and so set Horus up to hesitate at the last moment and die?

 

If you think about it, it makes sense. The Gods corrupted Horus, causing the Imperium to plunge into a seven year long civil war, during which time they thrived from the death and general chaos. They chose Horus over anyone not just because he was the Warmaster and had the leverage and charisma to cause a heresy, but also because of they knew he would hesitate at the last moment, allowing the Emperor to kill him and plunging humanity into darkness etc. etc. Thoughts?

Yes, one: Why wouldn't the Chaos Gods want their Champion to win and then rule over the entire galaxy? I dunno, them "ruling over the galaxy" seems to be the preferrable outcome over their opponent "not doing so good".

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Because according to Legion, if Horus had won, all humans would have died very rapidly, causing the elimination of Chaos. That's why the Cabal was supporting the Alpha Legion and trying to get them to aid Horus.

[Perrin]

Thats if chaos knew the same potential future that the Cabal did, or if they didnt know about it and thought Horus would be theirs forever.

[Epistolary Exander]

I was just thinking... Are the Chaos Gods smarter than we thought? Did they, like the Cabal, realise to win they had to lose and so set Horus up to hesitate at the last moment and die?

 

If you think about it, it makes sense. The Gods corrupted Horus, causing the Imperium to plunge into a seven year long civil war, during which time they thrived from the death and general chaos. They chose Horus over anyone not just because he was the Warmaster and had the leverage and charisma to cause a heresy, but also because of they knew he would hesitate at the last moment, allowing the Emperor to kill him and plunging humanity into darkness etc. etc. Thoughts?

 

I agree with what you say, Id love the series to end with Lorgar revealing that how the heresy ended was the result the Chaos Gods showed to him if they win the Heresy in Aurelian :P.

[Kol Saresk]

Well let's look at something from the whole picture out of everything we've seen from the Heresy series. The Cabal received visions from the warp through the Acuity. Both of these visions had Chaos winning one way or the other. Either Horus would win, or Horus would lose. If Horus won, he would lead humanity into a suicidal purge that would take the Powers of Chaos with it into destruction. If Horus lost, history would basically turn into what we know and love. The Cabal is trying to prevent Horus' loss.

 

What they didn't count on was the Alpha Legion doing things its own way.

 

But here's the catch 22: in The Outcast Dead, an astropath receives a vision about the Final Battle between Horus and the Emperor. There is the usual life and death chase with everyone either trying to kill the astropath, take him to Horus, torture the information out of him, so on and so forth. Then we get to see the vision. It says that in order for humanity to survive, the Emperor must give his own life in defeating Horus. The Emperor agrees with this and decides to do it.

 

So at the very least, Chaos could have made Horus hesitate at the Final Battle. But we have evidence for there being several contingency plans in place. And since Lorgar was shown every possible future that would take place, I'd say it is safe to say that these contingencies are not coincidental.

[Coryphaus 101]

Well let's look at something from the whole picture out of everything we've seen from the Heresy series. The Cabal received visions from the warp through the Acuity. Both of these visions had Chaos winning one way or the other. Either Horus would win, or Horus would lose. If Horus won, he would lead humanity into a suicidal purge that would take the Powers of Chaos with it into destruction. If Horus lost, history would basically turn into what we know and love. The Cabal is trying to prevent Horus' loss.

 

What they didn't count on was the Alpha Legion doing things its own way.

 

But here's the catch 22: in The Outcast Dead, an astropath receives a vision about the Final Battle between Horus and the Emperor. There is the usual life and death chase with everyone either trying to kill the astropath, take him to Horus, torture the information out of him, so on and so forth. Then we get to see the vision. It says that in order for humanity to survive, the Emperor must give his own life in defeating Horus. The Emperor agrees with this and decides to do it.

 

So at the very least, Chaos could have made Horus hesitate at the Final Battle. But we have evidence for there being several contingency plans in place. And since Lorgar was shown every possible future that would take place, I'd say it is safe to say that these contingencies are not coincidental.

So the two visions support each other, if the Emperor dies, humanity lives. I think the astropaths vision wasn't quite as detailed as the Cabal's ie. he saw humanity surviving but didn't realise they were preyed upon by chaos etc. Of this is the case it means the Emperor, willingly but unknowingly, gave his life so humanity could descend into chaos. Literally.

 

Alternately, the vision could mean if the Emperor truly died and still killed Horus. If this is what the vision was talking about, it brings a whole new element to this discussion. I would think that this would be what Chaos was trying to avoid at all costs, although I don't know how. Maybe they kept the Emperor alive somehow, or made sure Dorn found him right after he died.

[b1soul]

I was just thinking... Are the Chaos Gods smarter than we thought? Did they, like the Cabal, realise to win they had to lose and so set Horus up to hesitate at the last moment and die?

Horus hesitated? I thought the Emperor hesitated until the last moment. Horus only realised his folly after the Emperor had delivered the psychic blow. The Chaos Gods abandoned him at the point because they didn't want to be "possessing" him as the Emperor annihilated him.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I always thought this was exactly the case, though it might have been a spur of the moment thing. 'Oh, look, the Emperor's going to die one way or another. Let's abandon Horus for kicks and giggles, just imagine the look on his face when he realizes what he's done!'

 

Also, don't you think that if they really wanted the Emperor to die Abbaddon would be a bit more successful?

[Coryphaus 101]

I always thought it was Horus hesitating at the last moment that gave the Emperor the chance to attack and kill him and made the Chaos Gods run off.

 

What I'm saying is that if the Emperor truly died and killed Horus, Chaos would be thwarted. The fact that Dorn, after wandering the ship for hours, stumbled across the Emperor dying at the last moment, IMO, supports this.

[DarkGuard]

Following a similar train of thought, is the Emperor less smart than we originally thought he was. If he had any sort of foresight (I'd imagine he did) would he not have been able to see what the Cabal saw? Or could he not see that? In striking that final blow he may have kept humanity alive, but he also condemned them to a slow death and Chaos winning. Or as someone said did he see all this and more than the Cabal, has he got a trick up his sleeve that will sort everything out? Interesting...

[Legionator]

I agree with what you say, Id love the series to end with Lorgar revealing that how the heresy ended was the result the Chaos Gods showed to him if they win the Heresy in Aurelian :P.

 

I haven't read Aurelian yet, but a conspiracy theory comes to my mind. What if Lorgar had already knew that he wouldn't win the heresy and his true purpose was to make the Emperor a God by turning the Imperium to a theocratic state and making emperor worshipping an obligation via Horus Heresy? Lorgar's work, Lectico Divinatus, was made Imperium's Bible after the Heresy. Couldn't Lorgar be the ultimate loyalist?

[Raven Angel]

I agree with what you say, Id love the series to end with Lorgar revealing that how the heresy ended was the result the Chaos Gods showed to him if they win the Heresy in Aurelian :lol:.

 

I haven't read Aurelian yet, but a conspiracy theory comes to my mind. What if Lorgar had already knew that he wouldn't win the heresy and his true purpose was to make the Emperor a God by turning the Imperium to a theocratic state and making emperor worshipping an obligation via Horus Heresy? Lorgar's work, Lectico Divinatus, was made Imperium's Bible after the Heresy. Couldn't Lorgar be the ultimate loyalist?

 

No because Logar still lives and is a Deamon Prince now. Chaos didn't trick the Emperor; He tricked Chaos. He needed to Die to get into the warp to kill them and they have abliged he nicely. Now when the Golden Thrown fails and his body dies He will have the accumularted power of 10,000 years of worship and an army made of all the fallen heros of the Imperium to fight at his side. Chaos is screwed and they don't even know it yet.

[Israfel]

No because Logar still lives and is a Deamon Prince now. Chaos didn't trick the Emperor; He tricked Chaos. He needed to Die to get into the warp to kill them and they have abliged he nicely. Now when the Golden Thrown fails and his body dies He will have the accumularted power of 10,000 years of worship and an army made of all the fallen heros of the Imperium to fight at his side. Chaos is screwed and they don't even know it yet.

 

I like this line of thought! :D

[King Willy]

But Chaos has the accumulated power of eternity.

 

Big E can't kill chaos but he can make humanity ignore them, hence human access to the webway.

Remove warp travel and you practically destroy any hope that humans will acknowledge the chaos gods exist, after a couple hundred years only the inquisition and space marines would know the warps power, psykers wouldn't be needed so would be deemed dangerous and purged and after that humanity would be able to grow with out fear of chaos since most people wouldn't even know it exists.

 

Thats how he would plan to kill chaos.

 

You notice that chaos wasn't a big threat in the great crusade because the average citizen didn't believe in gods so they dismissed any weird voices and such, without this knowledge chaos cults wouldn't rise up so humans wouldn't look to serve gods that don't exist in ther mind, any rebels would just be humans trying to go it alone, which is easier to kill then daemon backed renegade planets.

[Captain Idaho]

One thing I hate in a fantastic story is a feeling of absolute fatalistic futility. Just makes everything a little pointless.

 

If the result could go either way then things genuinely become desparate and surprising for both sides.

[Raven Angel]

But Chaos has the accumulated power of eternity.

 

Big E can't kill chaos but he can make humanity ignore them, hence human access to the webway.

Remove warp travel and you practically destroy any hope that humans will acknowledge the chaos gods exist, after a couple hundred years only the inquisition and space marines would know the warps power, psykers wouldn't be needed so would be deemed dangerous and purged and after that humanity would be able to grow with out fear of chaos since most people wouldn't even know it exists.

 

Thats how he would plan to kill chaos.

 

You notice that chaos wasn't a big threat in the great crusade because the average citizen didn't believe in gods so they dismissed any weird voices and such, without this knowledge chaos cults wouldn't rise up so humans wouldn't look to serve gods that don't exist in ther mind, any rebels would just be humans trying to go it alone, which is easier to kill then daemon backed renegade planets.

 

Actully Chaos is using its power all the time. And if they were no threat how did they manage to start the corrupting Primarchs and stuff?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

One thing I hate in a fantastic story is a feeling of absolute fatalistic futility. Just makes everything a little pointless.

 

If the result could go either way then things genuinely become desparate and surprising for both sides.

 

A-freakin-men.

 

 

WLK

[Vesper]

But Chaos has the accumulated power of eternity.

 

Big E can't kill chaos but he can make humanity ignore them, hence human access to the webway.

Remove warp travel and you practically destroy any hope that humans will acknowledge the chaos gods exist, after a couple hundred years only the inquisition and space marines would know the warps power, psykers wouldn't be needed so would be deemed dangerous and purged and after that humanity would be able to grow with out fear of chaos since most people wouldn't even know it exists.

 

Thats how he would plan to kill chaos.

 

You notice that chaos wasn't a big threat in the great crusade because the average citizen didn't believe in gods so they dismissed any weird voices and such, without this knowledge chaos cults wouldn't rise up so humans wouldn't look to serve gods that don't exist in ther mind, any rebels would just be humans trying to go it alone, which is easier to kill then daemon backed renegade planets.

 

Actully Chaos is using its power all the time. And if they were no threat how did they manage to start the corrupting Primarchs and stuff?

 

 

Wut ?

1/ Chaos can't be "killed" as long as Humanity lives on.

2/ The Emperor is barely living with a bajillion psykers being sacrified each day on the throne. I've seen more powerful beings.

3/ Humanity is the very source of Chaos. So Chaos power is limitless since Humanity is the dominant specie of the galaxy.

4/ Worship give strenght ? It's true for the Chaos gods, not for the Emperor, or he would be far more powerful than everything by the time of the Heresy. But he was tricked by Chaos which led to Heresy. He didn't even saw it coming !

[Raven Angel]

But Chaos has the accumulated power of eternity.

 

Big E can't kill chaos but he can make humanity ignore them, hence human access to the webway.

Remove warp travel and you practically destroy any hope that humans will acknowledge the chaos gods exist, after a couple hundred years only the inquisition and space marines would know the warps power, psykers wouldn't be needed so would be deemed dangerous and purged and after that humanity would be able to grow with out fear of chaos since most people wouldn't even know it exists.

 

Thats how he would plan to kill chaos.

 

You notice that chaos wasn't a big threat in the great crusade because the average citizen didn't believe in gods so they dismissed any weird voices and such, without this knowledge chaos cults wouldn't rise up so humans wouldn't look to serve gods that don't exist in ther mind, any rebels would just be humans trying to go it alone, which is easier to kill then daemon backed renegade planets.

 

Actully Chaos is using its power all the time. And if they were no threat how did they manage to start the corrupting Primarchs and stuff?

 

 

Wut ?

1/ Chaos can't be "killed" as long as Humanity lives on.

2/ The Emperor is barely living with a bajillion psykers being sacrified each day on the throne. I've seen more powerful beings.

3/ Humanity is the very source of Chaos. So Chaos power is limitless since Humanity is the dominant specie of the galaxy.

4/ Worship give strenght ? It's true for the Chaos gods, not for the Emperor, or he would be far more powerful than everything by the time of the Heresy. But he was tricked by Chaos which led to Heresy. He didn't even saw it coming !

 

First off Chaos can be killed in the warp if they are consumed by another powerful warp entity. Thats what Slanesh did to the Eldar gods except Khaine. Second as a psyker the Emperor is directly pluged into the warp. Also the older fluff states that his soul has been in the warp ever since his internment on the thrown. Being in the warp his soul can absorb worship and emotional energy just like any other warp creature. Humanity may be the source of Chaos but that doesn't make Chaos invincible. Third it is an assumption that Chaos tricked the Emperor and not the other way around. We don't know what the Emperor knew and didn't know as he was kinda sequestered and not talking to anyone. Think about it. If the Emperor is able to become a god in the warp can Choas still win? If the Warp is our afterlife in 40k then it might have been the Emperors plan all along to storm the gates of heaven and take it back from the demons that rule there. How exactly do you go about explaining to your subordinates that you need to die but not before all of humanity is consintrating all of there latent psykic energy on you so you can rise a god in the warp and consume the forces of chaos?

[eyeslikethunder]

But Chaos has the accumulated power of eternity.

 

Big E can't kill chaos but he can make humanity ignore them, hence human access to the webway.

Remove warp travel and you practically destroy any hope that humans will acknowledge the chaos gods exist, after a couple hundred years only the inquisition and space marines would know the warps power, psykers wouldn't be needed so would be deemed dangerous and purged and after that humanity would be able to grow with out fear of chaos since most people wouldn't even know it exists.

 

Thats how he would plan to kill chaos.

 

You notice that chaos wasn't a big threat in the great crusade because the average citizen didn't believe in gods so they dismissed any weird voices and such, without this knowledge chaos cults wouldn't rise up so humans wouldn't look to serve gods that don't exist in ther mind, any rebels would just be humans trying to go it alone, which is easier to kill then daemon backed renegade planets.

 

This or something similar does seem to been his plan before the vision in outcast dead. I'm always surprised the Emperor never went for the they're just warp xenos explanation.

[Vesper]

First off Chaos can be killed in the warp if they are consumed by another powerful warp entity. Thats what Slanesh did to the Eldar gods except Khaine. Second as a psyker the Emperor is directly pluged into the warp. Also the older fluff states that his soul has been in the warp ever since his internment on the thrown. Being in the warp his soul can absorb worship and emotional energy just like any other warp creature. Humanity may be the source of Chaos but that doesn't make Chaos invincible. Third it is an assumption that Chaos tricked the Emperor and not the other way around. We don't know what the Emperor knew and didn't know as he was kinda sequestered and not talking to anyone. Think about it. If the Emperor is able to become a god in the warp can Choas still win? If the Warp is our afterlife in 40k then it might have been the Emperors plan all along to storm the gates of heaven and take it back from the demons that rule there. How exactly do you go about explaining to your subordinates that you need to die but not before all of humanity is consintrating all of there latent psykic energy on you so you can rise a god in the warp and consume the forces of chaos?

 

1- That's right for daemons, who are made from the very warp. The fluff says psykers in the warp are nothing more that juicy preys. Plus, the consumation still only applies for daemons/Chaos Gods, fluff wise.

2- Oh yea ? He's not a Chaos god. The fluff never makes such shortcut. We know that worship work for the the Chaos gods. Nothing more. And then, you are right, the Chaos may not be invicible once you totally wiped out Humanity and the Eldars.

3- Assuming there is some king of coherence in the acts of the emperor, he was tricked big time. "Ye, Russ, go kill Magnus, this SoB before he falls to chaos." -> Russ burn Prospero, Magnus is betrayed and so falls to Chaos. Tzeentch is a smartass, and the emperor saw nothing coming.

 

Then, you know, the worship of the emperor as a god was not tolerated while he lived (ask Lorgar). So there is no long time plan to storm the warp. Face it. He was tricked, killed by his closest son, and then the Imperium moved to something really far from everything the emperor wanted.

[King Willy]

In accepting a religion that vilifies the chaos gods, Humanity made itself more susceptible to the Chaos Gods by creating fear in what will happen, this would lead to the many other emotions that power them.

 

Despair from the fear of death would power nurgle, the wish to live a life of excess apart from the mundane imperial life would lend power to Slaanesh, Ambition to rise through the ranks and bureaucracy leads to Tzeentch gaining power and of course the constant anger at things perceived as wrong and inhuman lead to Khorne.

 

But as I said, had The Emperor completed his work on the webway, they wouldn't need the warp and as a result they would risk less from the Chaos Gods as there would be no need for Psykers, eventually they would move the crusade to purging the Psykers as telling them that there a danger would cause, even citizens to hunt down there own if it meant saving a whole planet. That and the Emperor being alive would have far more sway over the population of the Imperium then the High Lords could ever dream of.

 

The Chaos Gods power is dependent on the emotional power of sentient races, hence the chaos gods can never die as long as they have worships fuelling them, which includes so called veneration of the emperor since often that is done in battle, were things such as Anger, Despair, Ambition and Excess would thrive and as a result enhance the Chaos Gods.

They don't need psykers to gain power unlike the emperor.

 

Also the whole Warp Entities can be killed by others is easily proven by the fact that the Eldar gods had no worshippers yet Slaanessh had a whole race now powering him with all there emotional energy, the eldar gods were husks except for Khaine who was fuelled by anger and martial skill, which the last survivors would have in excess since developing the Aspects and the paths, which would each fuel Khaines warp form though not on the level to hurt Slaanesh.