I wonder if...

[Raven Angel]

First off Chaos can be killed in the warp if they are consumed by another powerful warp entity. Thats what Slanesh did to the Eldar gods except Khaine. Second as a psyker the Emperor is directly pluged into the warp. Also the older fluff states that his soul has been in the warp ever since his internment on the thrown. Being in the warp his soul can absorb worship and emotional energy just like any other warp creature. Humanity may be the source of Chaos but that doesn't make Chaos invincible. Third it is an assumption that Chaos tricked the Emperor and not the other way around. We don't know what the Emperor knew and didn't know as he was kinda sequestered and not talking to anyone. Think about it. If the Emperor is able to become a god in the warp can Choas still win? If the Warp is our afterlife in 40k then it might have been the Emperors plan all along to storm the gates of heaven and take it back from the demons that rule there. How exactly do you go about explaining to your subordinates that you need to die but not before all of humanity is consintrating all of there latent psykic energy on you so you can rise a god in the warp and consume the forces of chaos?

 

1- That's right for daemons, who are made from the very warp. The fluff says psykers in the warp are nothing more that juicy preys. Plus, the consumation still only applies for daemons/Chaos Gods, fluff wise.

2- Oh yea ? He's not a Chaos god. The fluff never makes such shortcut. We know that worship work for the the Chaos gods. Nothing more. And then, you are right, the Chaos may not be invicible once you totally wiped out Humanity and the Eldars.

3- Assuming there is some king of coherence in the acts of the emperor, he was tricked big time. "Ye, Russ, go kill Magnus, this SoB before he falls to chaos." -> Russ burn Prospero, Magnus is betrayed and so falls to Chaos. Tzeentch is a smartass, and the emperor saw nothing coming.

 

Then, you know, the worship of the emperor as a god was not tolerated while he lived (ask Lorgar). So there is no long time plan to storm the warp. Face it. He was tricked, killed by his closest son, and then the Imperium moved to something really far from everything the emperor wanted.

 

You really need to read mor fluff

1 The Emperor is no mere psyker. His very essence is in anathema to Chose. Sorce GK dex, HH Mecanicum novel.

2 Consumption does not only apply to Chaos. Consumption is the natual order in the Warp. Consumption of other warp entities and of focused emotional energy. It can sustain but it also creates. Sorce Slanesh, other Chaos godes , Ork gods, Eldar gods, Dark Eldar gods, As noted in their codexes.

3 The Emperor is not a god YET. He is not dead yet his soul is stil tethered to his body. The finnal transfomation will not happen until the body dies free his soul completely. Logical deduction based onthe other evidence and the Star Child Fluff.

4 The Emperor didn't order the death order Magnus. He told Russ to bring Magnus back to be judged for his crime. Horus convinced Russ the Magnus was to dangerous to be brought back and sent the SOS and Castodias he had to Russ. Horus orderd Magnuses death. Sorce IA and HH Colected Visions

5 The Emperor being tricked assumes that things didn't play out in some veriation of the way the Emperor wanted. He was over 50,000 years old. Do you really think he plans things on scale and time frame the normal people do?

 

You don't know wether ther was a plan or not. All we really know is its 10,000 years later and we haven't lost yet. Anybody with the forthought to plan the creation of the Mecanicum for more then 20,000 years can definetly plan and execute this plan.

 

In accepting a religion that vilifies the chaos gods, Humanity made itself more susceptible to the Chaos Gods by creating fear in what will happen, this would lead to the many other emotions that power them.

 

Despair from the fear of death would power nurgle, the wish to live a life of excess apart from the mundane imperial life would lend power to Slaanesh, Ambition to rise through the ranks and bureaucracy leads to Tzeentch gaining power and of course the constant anger at things perceived as wrong and inhuman lead to Khorne.

 

But as I said, had The Emperor completed his work on the webway, they wouldn't need the warp and as a result they would risk less from the Chaos Gods as there would be no need for Psykers, eventually they would move the crusade to purging the Psykers as telling them that there a danger would cause, even citizens to hunt down there own if it meant saving a whole planet. That and the Emperor being alive would have far more sway over the population of the Imperium then the High Lords could ever dream of.

 

The Chaos Gods power is dependent on the emotional power of sentient races, hence the chaos gods can never die as long as they have worships fuelling them, which includes so called veneration of the emperor since often that is done in battle, were things such as Anger, Despair, Ambition and Excess would thrive and as a result enhance the Chaos Gods.

They don't need psykers to gain power unlike the emperor.

 

Also the whole Warp Entities can be killed by others is easily proven by the fact that the Eldar gods had no worshippers yet Slaanessh had a whole race now powering him with all there emotional energy, the eldar gods were husks except for Khaine who was fuelled by anger and martial skill, which the last survivors would have in excess since developing the Aspects and the paths, which would each fuel Khaines warp form though not on the level to hurt Slaanesh.

 

The universe may be rife with things that help to fule Chaos but there is also hope. The Veneration of the Emperor does not fule Chaos however. This energey is phocused on the Emperor and there fore impowers him. It is targeted.

 

The psykers "feed to the Emperor" don't power the Emperor's soul. They power the Golden Thrown which in turn maintains his body and the with it the Astronomican. Sorce

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...2hEIB8x-0Db1Ikw

[Vesper]

There is now hope. That is why it's grimdark.

 

 

1/ Didn't have the guts to read the whole GK codex fluff. So hey.

2/ As far as I know, Chaos gods are the only warp entities (with daemons, enslavers and such). Other deities are something else.

3/ The emperor is not a god YET ? Then the worship can't fuel him, because he's trapped on the Throne, right ?

The star child theory is pretty outdated, btw. And it remains a pure theory.

4/ That's right, didn't remember this. Another smart move from the emperor who can't have much influence on his sons.

5/ The Emperor not being tricked assume that there is some kind of meaning behind his actions. But there's obviously not, at least for now. So he was tricked.

 

If he would become a god once dead, why has he said to Dorn about the golden throne ?

[Raven Angel]

There is now hope. That is why it's grimdark.

 

 

1/ Didn't have the guts to read the whole GK codex fluff. So hey.

2/ As far as I know, Chaos gods are the only warp entities (with daemons, enslavers and such). Other deities are something else.

3/ The emperor is not a god YET ? Then the worship can't fuel him, because he's trapped on the Throne, right ?

The star child theory is pretty outdated, btw. And it remains a pure theory.

4/ That's right, didn't remember this. Another smart move from the emperor who can't have much influence on his sons.

5/ The Emperor not being tricked assume that there is some kind of meaning behind his actions. But there's obviously not, at least for now. So he was tricked.

 

If he would become a god once dead, why has he said to Dorn about the golden throne ?

 

1 Should finish it. Its prety out there. Talks about them traping deamons with necron tech and all kinds of wild stuff but it say straight up that GKs are made from genesede 2 fashoind from the Emperor

2 The other codexes going back to Eldar and Orks are preaty clear the the Chaos gods are not the only uber powerful beings in the warp.

3 Worship of excess fuled the creation of Slannesh form nothing. If that is possible I find it difficult to beleive that simaler process is not taking place with the Emperor now as it has the benefit of being even more contusly directed from both ends. There is nothing that I am awary of about the Thrown that would prevent the Eperor's soul from absorbing all of that power. While the Star Child Theory remains old there is no direct evidece to contradict it. Trouble is His body has to die to see if it works.

4 Don't quit understand that statement. If you are refering to how much control the Emperor had over the Primarchs well how good or bad he is at controling them is dertermined purly by what it is he actually wants them to do. tens of thoushads of years manipulating people. I really do think he understood action and reaction better then most of us do.

5 Yes it does just like assumeing he was tricked assumes that a guy who lived for 50,000 years and bacame the most powerful man in the galaxy sudenly forgot how to talk to people and fight his mortal enemy. Just because you have not figured out the alternative yet does not mean it is not there.

6 He had Dorn put him in the Thrown because He had to wait for the religion he already knew was there to grow and feed him enough power to make the transformation.

[Vesper]

456/ Pure suggestions with no actual proof at all. Proves my point that your statement is made ex nihilo.

 

Let's get back to topic I already forgot.

[Raven Angel]

The topic is whether or not Chaos tricked the Emperor so we are still on topic. If you think I'm wrong what is your evidence or reasoning?

[Vesper]

Your absence of evidence. Minus a theory back in the old days, which is no longer supported by GW.

Plus, there's big holes in what you say. Let's name one : if the E would become a god once dead why did he punished the WB for worshipping him ? Why has he not started the religion about his person as he was alive ? He was the planning kind of guy you say, so it's a bit dumb to say to Dorn : "Oh wait, just forgot, you should start worshipping me fast. So I can become strong once I'm dead !" Why waste time ? Why lose the WB (as they were, they would fit perfectly in the present Imperium, due to the fact that the religion of the said imperium is based on lorgar's works). You see ? Even if he was superman, he was still a man. If he wasn't tricked, then he was really dumb.

[Raven Angel]

Your absence of evidence. Minus a theory back in the old days, which is no longer supported by GW.

Plus, there's big holes in what you say. Let's name one : if the E would become a god once dead why did he punished the WB for worshipping him ? Why has he not started the religion about his person as he was alive ? He was the planning kind of guy you say, so it's a bit dumb to say to Dorn : "Oh wait, just forgot, you should start worshipping me fast. So I can become strong once I'm dead !" Why waste time ? Why lose the WB (as they were, they would fit perfectly in the present Imperium, due to the fact that the religion of the said imperium is based on lorgar's works). You see ? Even if he was superman, he was still a man. If he wasn't tricked, then he was really dumb.

 

You are starting to ask the right questions but you still arn't resoning out ALL of the possibilities.

 

1 You ask why he punished the WBs but you miss the bigger questions. Why didn't he destroy their homeworld to start with? The whole planet was a cathedral world devoted to the warship os Chaos. Why let Logar recrute a bunch of religous fanatics? Why not head off the whole problem from the beginning?

2 It's not he dies and instantly becomes a god. It is a long drawn out process. Also he needed the religon to develop naturally so that humanity would accept it and not have it forced on them which again takes time. thats why he just doesn't say somthing like that to Dorn. Therefor it is not a waste of time.

3 Why lose the WBs you say? Better question why lose any of the Legions? The fluff is very clear on what action on the part of Big E lead to the fall of each Legion.

 

Now put your really devious cap on and think. If the Emperor is not dumb and he was not tricked what possibilities are left? Remember there are no good guys in 40k.

[Vesper]

I really do think the emperor is highly overrated. As I see it, it was the primarchs who made differences. The emperor was just out of the picture. From what I can tell from the fluff, he was not the kind of guy who get things done. And I don't give any credit to outdated and most likely forgotten (at least by GW), theories.

[Raven Angel]

Well I can respect that but I don't agree.

[Legionator]

3/ The emperor is not a god YET ? Then the worship can't fuel him, because he's trapped on the Throne, right ?

The star child theory is pretty outdated, btw. And it remains a pure theory.

 

 

7/If he would become a god once dead, why has he said to Dorn about the golden throne ?

 

3/ Every emotion has a reflection in Warp. Trillions of people worship to the Emperor and die for him. It must have an effect in Warp.

 

7/ In 30K just a bunch of zeolots were worshipping him but through the ten thousand years, he has grew stronger. Now with the power of billions of believers, he is ready to challange to false gods.

 

(A bit wishful thinking maybe, but still it is possible)

[Vesper]

7/ In 30K just a bunch of zeolots were worshipping him but through the ten thousand years, he has grew stronger. Now with the power of billions of believers, he is ready to challange to false gods.

 

Ye. Pretty sad it's not in the fluff, right ?

[Raven Angel]

Maybe 6th ed will fix that.

[Vesper]

I hope not. I like 40k in its grimdark version.

[Jim Shady]

6 He had Dorn put him in the Thrown because He had to wait for the religion he already knew was there to grow and feed him enough power to make the transformation.

 

Didn't The Big E state he was no god? And declined all offer of worship? Hence the rebuke to the Word Bearer's.

[Raven Angel]

6 He had Dorn put him in the Thrown because He had to wait for the religion he already knew was there to grow and feed him enough power to make the transformation.

 

Didn't The Big E state he was no god? And declined all offer of worship? Hence the rebuke to the Word Bearer's.

 

So did Jesus Christ

[Jim Shady]

No where in the lore does it specifically state the Emperor "waited" for the Imperial Cult to grow so he could "transform". He kept denying he was a god and was hooked up to the Golden Throne to sustain his life so he could still guide mankind.

 

I think overall, your missing the point entirely.

[King Willy]

Two words mate.

 

Occam's Razor.

[Vesper]

My point, exactly.

[Raven Angel]

No where in the lore does it specifically state the Emperor "waited" for the Imperial Cult to grow so he could "transform". He kept denying he was a god and was hooked up to the Golden Throne to sustain his life so he could still guide mankind.

 

I think overall, your missing the point entirely.

 

No I'm not. I've had more then 10 years to reason out my conclusions. They just didn't crystlise untile the HH books started coming out.

 

Two words mate.

 

Occam's Razor.

 

 

My point, exactly.

 

Ok well if we use Occam's Razor to the question of if the Emperor is not an idot and he was not tricked by Chaos what options are left? Remember The Imperium is founded on the principle of the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. Come on guys I know you are all smart enough to reason this out. What is left?

[Vesper]

He most likely was tricked, he may has been stupid, there's next to no chance that he made up the whole thing. It just makes no sense with the HH serie who are the real canon.

[Raven Angel]

Sure it does. What did Chaos tell Horus the Emperor was doing on Terra to corrupt him? They said he was laying the foundation to become a god. The best lies have a kernal of truth. The Emperor planed the GC for thousands of years. He diliberately backed Chaos into a corner and gave them the means to stike back and in doing so was able to dictate where and how the blow would come. He let them overreach and expose their true nature to mankind insuring that much if not all of humanity would never willingly side with Chaos ever again. And he set the stage for a final confrontation sometime in the years to come. In the quest to destroy Chose even Primarchs and legions of Astartes are considered expendable to complete his goals. If their corruption and fall from grace couldn't teach the lesson to mankind of the danger Chaos represented than nothing could.

[eyeslikethunder]

True that was before he saw the vision about him becoming a god in outcast dead

6 He had Dorn put him in the Thrown because He had to wait for the religion he already knew was there to grow and feed him enough power to make the transformation.

 

Didn't The Big E state he was no god? And declined all offer of worship? Hence the rebuke to the Word Bearer's.

[Vesper]

Sure it does. What did Chaos tell Horus the Emperor was doing on Terra to corrupt him? They said he was laying the foundation to become a god. The best lies have a kernal of truth. The Emperor planed the GC for thousands of years. He diliberately backed Chaos into a corner and gave them the means to stike back and in doing so was able to dictate where and how the blow would come. He let them overreach and expose their true nature to mankind insuring that much if not all of humanity would never willingly side with Chaos ever again. And he set the stage for a final confrontation sometime in the years to come. In the quest to destroy Chose even Primarchs and legions of Astartes are considered expendable to complete his goals. If their corruption and fall from grace couldn't teach the lesson to mankind of the danger Chaos represented than nothing could.

 

Far too much holes. You're not proving anything, you're just saying what you think. I will give you the most plausible explanation : The Emperor didn't see it coming. That explain why he was so affected by the fall of Horus that he was almost killed on the Vengeful Spirit (hesitating to fight Horus at full strenght). That explain why he was close to be annihilated on Terra (if Horus choosed to continue the siege), that explain why he hasn't let any direction for the post heresy imperium, it explains the whole WB thing, and about everything else. The whole thing went out of control, and he wasn't able to hold it. The fight with Horus would have looked like something else if what you said was true. In fact, it seems not.

[Raven Angel]

Sure it does. What did Chaos tell Horus the Emperor was doing on Terra to corrupt him? They said he was laying the foundation to become a god. The best lies have a kernal of truth. The Emperor planed the GC for thousands of years. He diliberately backed Chaos into a corner and gave them the means to stike back and in doing so was able to dictate where and how the blow would come. He let them overreach and expose their true nature to mankind insuring that much if not all of humanity would never willingly side with Chaos ever again. And he set the stage for a final confrontation sometime in the years to come. In the quest to destroy Chose even Primarchs and legions of Astartes are considered expendable to complete his goals. If their corruption and fall from grace couldn't teach the lesson to mankind of the danger Chaos represented than nothing could.

 

Far too much holes. You're not proving anything, you're just saying what you think. I will give you the most plausible explanation : The Emperor didn't see it coming. That explain why he was so affected by the fall of Horus that he was almost killed on the Vengeful Spirit (hesitating to fight Horus at full strenght). That explain why he was close to be annihilated on Terra (if Horus choosed to continue the siege), that explain why he hasn't let any direction for the post heresy imperium, it explains the whole WB thing, and about everything else. The whole thing went out of control, and he wasn't able to hold it. The fight with Horus would have looked like something else if what you said was true. In fact, it seems not.

 

I know the thought that the Emperor actuall planed for and maybe even set the events of the HH in motion is very hard to swollow at first, but it is both plausible and logical. I for one have no idea how Horus' fall effected Big E. He never says to my knowledge. Really if you look at the whole thing Horus is kind of a secreat hero here. The Emperor need Chaos exposed in the vilest way possible. He needed humanity to fear the corrupting power of Chaos. He needed to be wounded nigh unto death but not killed out right. Horus delivered for his father in spades. Think about it if the leader of the rebelion can't wound the Emperor severly the plan fails. If He kills the Emperor outright in that moment the plan fails. Horus became the most hated figure in Imperial History but may in the end be the one person who has insured the master plan actually works. You keep pointing thing out like the Great Crusade was suppose to have a happy ending. I contend just the opposite. The Emperor never planed for a happy ending. He knew without a doubt that Chaos would seek to corrupt his designs and so he created a path of least resistance. He spacificly chose which primarchs and which legions he wanted Chaos to go after. He baited them by giving the appearence of weakness and counted on them to take advantaqe. This is why he slighted Mortarion, why he dishonored Angeron, why he left a Chaos trained religious nut in command of an army and then publicly humiliated him. These wern't accidents or acts of ignorance. They where calculations to insure he knew exactly who could be counted on to rebell and therefor who would be vulnerable to the temptations of Chaos. What you see as stupidity or blindness I see as carful planning.

[King Willy]

No mate, that just sounds convoluted.

 

You need to make these assumptions that the emperor planned all of this when it makes more sense that the emperor was caught off guard and couldn't kill his favoured son, it's mentioned many times that the emperor couldn't believe what happened and that he hesitated to act against Horus when he rebelled.

It's in both C:CSM and C:SM that he hesitated and couldn't believe that Horus would rebel. All this has been said and makes a lot more sense then the Emperor, who saw the Primarchs as his sons was simply acting and planned to betray them.