Shunting into cover/dangerous terrain.

[Gentlemanloser]

Interceptors are Jump Infantry. Therefore they move like Jump Infantry. Therefore any move that isn't plain ol' walking is a jump move with all the attendant benefits and pitfalls. There is no other valid way to look at this, given the current rules set.

 

Not true Number 6".

 

JI have two movement options.

 

A 6" Walk (you could claim this is actually the 'normal' movement, as it's the only movement type all infantry units share) and a 12" Jump.

 

A Shunt is neither, and takes rules/restrictions from neither. It's a brand new type of movement, with it own rule set entirely.

 

A shunt isn't a super Jump. ;)

 

Le sigh. sad.gif GW is so much FAIL sometimes.

 

Indeed! ;)

 

Edit:

 

Besides, this is all irrelevant, as a shunt ignores all intervening terrain. Now, if you want to argue that terrain you start/end in isn't intervening, then you'll have to explain how far a unit moves when they start (or end) thier shunt in difficult terrain. ;)

[breng77]

Besides, this is all irrelevant, as a shunt ignores all intervening terrain. Now, if you want to argue that terrain you start/end in isn't intervening, then you'll have to explain how far a unit moves when they start (or end) thier shunt in difficult terrain.

 

Or describe why beginning and ending cannot be intervening (which I did) and then just accept the fact that GW intended for the shunt to use the Jump rules. I know that that is not RAW but RAW there is no ruling on how to interact with terrain that is not in between the start and the end. I agree that it is poor rules writing on the part of GW but ruling anything other than the same as any other use of jump movement I feel is trying to gain an advantage against what the obvious intent of the move is.

 

Look at it this way

 

Jump moves begin or end in DT take dangerous.

Units teleporting (via deepstike) ending up in DT take Dangerous.

 

The most reasonable answer would be a teleport shunt would take dangerous terrain, unless GW states otherwise.

[Gentlemanloser]

But you didn't explain it mate.

 

*If* a shunt doesn't ignore difficult terrain it starts/ends in (and in turn makes it dangerous, which is seperate anyway), then that difficult terrain *has* to slow the move down.

 

If it doesn't, then by default the shunt has ignored that difficult terrain.

 

So how much is the move influenced by difficult terrain? How much is it slowed?

 

Until you can answer that, there's no way that a shunt is effected by any terrain.

[breng77]

If like a jump move DT = dangerous terrain (which is my argument) then it is not slowed down at all.

 

HOw much does DT slow down jump infantry or bikes?

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, I see now! :)

 

I still can't agree that 'intervening terrain' doesn't cover terrain you start/end in, as (for example only) the entire 30" move could be within a single peice of terrain, which is intervening entirely.

 

I also can't agree that a shunt uses Jump Infantry rules, as there are no rules that point to this. Only the fluff that the shunt is provided by the same wargear that allows the Jump Infantry move.

 

Which as Number6 put so eloquently;

 

That's a nice fluffy description that has absolutely no relationship whatsoever with the rules.

[dswanick]

I still can't agree that 'intervening terrain' doesn't cover terrain you start/end in, as (for example only) the entire 30" move could be within a single peice of terrain, which is intervening entirely.

in·ter·vene    [in-ter-veen]

 

verb (used without object), in·ter·vened, in·ter·ven·ing.

1. to come between disputing people, groups, etc.; intercede; mediate.

2. to occur or be between two things.

3. to occur or happen between other events or periods: Nothing important intervened between the meetings.

4. (of things) to occur incidentally so as to modify or hinder: We enjoyed the picnic until a thunderstorm intervened.

5. to interfere with force or a threat of force: to intervene in the affairs of another country.

intervening means to come, occur, or exist between things. Terrain can be between your start and end point, but those points can't be between themselves. Plus, the rules state that Difficult/Dangerous terrain effects occur if you move "into, out of, or through". So while the "through" part is negated by the "intervening terrain" bit, the "into, and out of" are not.

[Brother Ambroz]

Even if a shunt is more of a "bampf", they still don't know exactly where they're going with it, what if they materialize in a tree or wall? There's a fluffy justification for dangerous terrain tests.

[Seahawk]

Eldar Warp Spiders have been "bamphing" for years with their personal warp jump packs without complaint. Just take your "once per game super-move-DT" and stop complaining :).

[Gentlemanloser]

intervening means to come, occur, or exist between things. Terrain can be between your start and end point, but those points can't be between themselves. Plus, the rules state that Difficult/Dangerous terrain effects occur if you move "into, out of, or through". So while the "through" part is negated by the "intervening terrain" bit, the "into, and out of" are not.

 

And if the Terrain in question is a isngle solid peice? Like a long bit of forest, or ruin or the like.

 

And where does the between stop? If you're in the edge of a 5" bit of scenery, that is in the path of your shunt, just becuase you're in the edge of it (and there's still 5" of it infront of you) it doesn't count as existing 'between' your shunt move?

 

It's badly worded, granted, but difficult and dangerous terrain have been ommited from the shunt rules, unlike impassible. The logical reason why is that all difficult and dangerous terrain is included in the intervening exception.

[breng77]

I also can't agree that a shunt uses Jump Infantry rules, as there are no rules that point to this. Only the fluff that the shunt is provided by the same wargear that allows the Jump Infantry move.

 

It is not fluff but game rules that indicate that the shunt is provided by the personal teleporter, just as bikes give models using them the turbo boost rule. I'm sorry but arguing otherwise is simply rules lawyering for advantage. I understand that the rules don't specify, but they also don't say that you don't need to deal with terrain you start in.

 

And where does the between stop? If you're in the edge of a 5" bit of scenery, that is in the path of your shunt, just becuase you're in the edge of it (and there's still 5" of it infront of you) it doesn't count as existing 'between' your shunt move?

 

Between would be anything falling along the 30" line between your starting point and ending point. Essentially Terrain underneath your base does not count as between.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why?

 

Wouldn't part of it obviously be between the start and end of your move? Shouldn't that be enough to allow you to ignore the entire bit of Terrain?

 

There's no stipualtion in the shunt move about starting or ending in Terrain, and if (for example) you start in open ground, shunt 20" in total and the last 5" of the shunt move is a large bit of difficult terrain. Hasn't that intervened your move?

 

Meh, this is sematics now. So probably best to leave it here. :)

 

I don't think a shunt move is either;

 

Anything to do with the totally seperate 12" 'jump' move (bar fluff)

Effected by any difficult/dangerous terrain

 

And will leave it at that. ;)

[breng77]

I think you are failing to differentiate between, area terrain pieces, and difficult terrain. It seems that you are arguing that if you pass over any part of a terrain piece that you should ignore it because part of it has intervened. That is one interpretation. However, it is possible to have difficult terrain without a terrain piece, what happens when you are hit by a weapon that states that you moves as if in difficult terrain? Do you just ignore it because it is intervening? And if so how is the effect of a weapon intervening? Not all terrain has a defined area, as such I would treat any part of the terrain that is between your start and end as intervening, and any terrain at your start and end as the start and end. For example

 

Start----------------Intervening-----------------end. Any terrain on the dotted line is ignored, but if you start or end in terrain that is not ignored.

 

Also you are entitled to believe what you want, I would just not expect any tournament to rule it that way as there is no reason to believe that jump infantry moving using a shunt should treat terrain any differently than during a jump.

[dswanick]

There's no stipualtion in the shunt move about starting or ending in Terrain, and if (for example) you start in open ground, shunt 20" in total and the last 5" of the shunt move is a large bit of difficult terrain. Hasn't that intervened your move?

Nor does there need to be. The rules about Moving into, out of, or through Difficult and Dangerous Terrain is found in the "Terrain" section of the BRB on Pg.14. You have to show a specific rule in the PT rules which allow you to ignore Dangerous Terrain tests when moving Into and Out Of Dangerous Terrain just as you have shown that you can ignore Dangerous Terrain you Move Through.

[Gentlemanloser]

Isn't "Ignores intervening Terrain" enough?

[breng77]

no because other units that ignore all terrain state so explicitly. (See harlequins, Wraiths, Ctans etc.)

[nurglez]

Just wondering here, but when I looked in the rule book there is no mention of jump infantry "walking". It seems to state that jump infantry must check for dangerous terrain if they start or end their move in difficult terrain, and unless they change their type when they "walk" raw they should always check.

[breng77]

The rules in the BrB state that Jump infantry CAN use their Jump Packs to move 12" or they can choose to move as normal infantry (p.52)

[nurglez]

aye, however their unit type is still jump infantry, and if jump infantry start or end their move in dif terrain, they test for dangerous terrain. makes no mention of how they moved...

 

I don't play it that way, just saying that strictly RAW it seems that way...

[Inquisitor Fox]

Did we forget the Shunt is a subrule of the Personal Teleporter? So if you use the shunt, you are using the Personal Teleporter, ergo you are Jump Infantry when it is being used. Jump Infantry may forgo the use of their pack and walk, so you actually end up with three possibilities:

 

A ) Use your feet and move like normal infantry

B ) Use your Personal Teleporter to move like Jump Infantry

B 2) Use your Personal Teleporter to exercise the once per game Shunt Move as per the special rules under Personal Teleporter on page 28. It simply counts as "a move" so it follows the regular rules of any other move, and since you are moving as Jump Infantry via the Personal Teleporter, you take your test. Intervening Terrain is not the same as ending in Terrain. It means you can move across the board regardless of what Terrain is on the table between the start and stop points.

 

Ergo if you're shunting and starting or ending your move in difficult terrain, you take the test. I mean, always the possibilitiy you materialize into a rock :)

[worloch]

Anyhow, I believe the rulebook states somewhere (don't have it with me right now) that you can still choose to make a normal move in to difficult terrain with jump troops to avoid the dangerous terrain test - and the shunt says it is in place of a 'normal' move.

 

I believe the RAW supports that you would not take a Dangerous Terrain test, but I believe the spirit would suggest you should, following in the precedents of Jump Troops landing in difficult terrain, deep striking in to difficult terrain, and bikes moving through difficult terrain.

 

Quoting myself ... how crass :P

 

 

I have to again agree with Gentleman Loser - RAW might not be what you want to believe or hear, but the clearest case is that the Shunt is separate movement type, and that the rules for it are sparse at best.

 

However, I would still suggest that within local gaming group that the spirit of the rule will probably go over better than arguing the RAW, and it really isn't that limiting.

[Drachnon]

Actually RAW jump infantry has to take difficult terrain tests regardless of what movement they use. There is a dot between the part where you can choose on what movement to use and the next part saying:

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends it's movement in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Because of the wording it links the rule to the unit type instead of the movement type. I've never seen anyone make a problem out of this though as it's clearly a mistake on GW's part.

 

To make things more confusing GW doesn't list interceptors as jump infantry in the GK dex and instead adds to change to jump infantry to their gear (I can't recall any codex where assault squad who start with jump packs are listed as normal infantry).

 

Anyways I would go with a compromise that starting terrain doesn't count but end terrain does.