Why does the Lion distrust Guilliman?

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Hi everyone, I just finished The Lion from the new Primarchs book, and I was intrigued by one of the final comments of the story.

 

 

In the book the Lion appears to secure a weapon that could alter the war, but instead of immediately bringing the weapon to the loyalists, as Guilliman had commanded other space marines to do, he launches into a soliloquy about how he cannot trust anyone, and that Guilliman and Horus are both power hungry waiting to take the throne. The Lion believes he must make sure that no one becomes emperor other than the emperor.

 

 

Maybe it is my slight Ultramarine bias, nut I don't know where this distrust of Guilliman is coming from. It doesn't seem like simple jealousy and it is easy to see the Lion and Guilliman being less than the best of brothers, but other than personality conflict I can't see a reason for the above view of the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Can anybody point me to some info to back up this view, because for the most part I remember Guilliman getting along well with most loyalist primarchs (the Dauntless few and white scars evidently as they ar named in KNF to be admired and dependable)

[Billuriye]

Guilliman is not very popular amongst his brothers. Add to that Lion's inherent distrustfulness fueled by Curze's words and you get your answer.

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman is not very popular amongst his brothers. Add to that Lion's inherent distrustfulness fueled by Curze's words and you get your answer.

 

I agree (though he isn't hated by his brothers aside from Lorgar, just not affectionly thought of) but would like to add...

 

By Guilliman's own admission when the narrator reflects upon his position in Know No Fear, many of the Primarchs can't see past his actions without feeling "what does he get out of the deal", so there is an element of mistrust there.

 

However, none of the other Primarchs think Guilliman to be disloyal by any stretch of the imagination. It's why Horus and Lorgar did the whole Battle of Calth thing, to prevent him entering the war on the side of the Imperium.

 

The reason Johnson believes Guilliman is out for himself is because he distrusts everyone himself and is judging others by what he does himself.

 

Remember when he attempted to strike a deal with Peturobo to become next Warmaster when the Heresy had just started and it wasn't even ended? That's the Lion's ambition and selfish motivations coming to the fore.

 

So basically he paints others with that brush because that is his ultimate ambition.

 

Sorry DA fans and this isn't an attack or anything, but the Lion is shaping up to really be a shady character and might be rather unpopular come the end of the Heresy. How many super weapons will he give to traitors or keep from Imperials before the Heresy is over?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Yeah, not like Guilliman is responsible for the deed that made Lorgar go on a soul-searching quest that spawned the Heresy. The Lion's a traitorous rascal for taking great pains to secure war-changing super weapons, and then handing them over to a Primarch specialized in siege warfare that was trusted by Dorn. How dare he?

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, not like Guilliman is responsible for the deed that made Lorgar go on a soul-searching quest that spawned the Heresy. The Lion's a traitorous rascal for taking great pains to secure war-changing super weapons, and then handing them over to a Primarch specialized in siege warfare that was trusted by Dorn. How dare he?

 

How can Guilliman be responsible for the Emperor's chastisment of Lorgar? He could have used any other Primarch for that task.

 

Like I said; sorry DA fans but the Lion so far has had less than a glorious showing in the Heresy series. He's been shown to have great character flaws on par with several traitor Primarchs and is certainly letting his own ambition colour his trust for his allies.

 

There is no need to get defensive.

 

Personally I like the idea Johnson is a much darker character; he's got some depth and it makes the Dark Angels extremely interesting rather than the old "some of us turned traitor so we are on a quest to kill them, but otherwise we are good guys" thing.

[Rik Lightstar]

I think that the "Darker" aspects of El'Johnson add something to his character, he had the strength to be tempted but to see what was right, where Guilliman was never tempted and Horus gave in, El'Johnson is the one who over-came the challenge.

 

Rik

[Aegnor]

Posted on this when Savage Weapons by ADB first introduced the idea of this distrust. There are two reasons the Lion distrusts Guilliman, and they both have everything to do with the Lion and only a little to do with Guilliman - and I say that as a big fan of the Lion.

 

First, the Lion has major trust issues, that likely reflect his innate personality but also certainly his formative experiences on Caliban. He almost literally cannot trust anyone, besides the Emperor and those he is comfortable he directly controls. So anyone looking to take the lead gets a suspicious reaction from him. He is, sadly, quite paranoid, and by this stage the actions of Horus in rebelling, of Perterabo in tricking him into handing over the giant siege guns, the words of Curze, and the "treachery" of Luther, have stoked that paranoia to a fine edge.

 

Second, relatedy to that first point, when he has a disagreement with someone over a course of action, he finds it just about impossible to credit that person, whoever it is, with honest motives or good intentions. Guilliman's suggestion as it is implied, is quite controversial - that they abandon Terra and the Emperor to its fate and concentrate on preserving an empire where the Emperor's ideals are upheld (as RG views, and beliefs the Emperor views, those ideals as more important than the Emperor himself). The Lion disagrees, but while some might say "I disagree and won't help, but can see why you say that", he leaps to "you putting forward an idea I don't agree with makes you untrustworthy, and probably also means you're lying to cover more sinister motives".

 

Guilliman maybe contributes to this a little by being not conscious enough of how his "orders" are viewed as he seems to credit most of his brothers with something like his own level of what he sees professionalism and objectivity.

[Aegnor]

Captain Idaho: I think, as above, the Lion's issues with ambition come back to his inability to trust others. It's not necessarily that he is ambitious because he wants glory and adoration, or rank and privilege for it's own sake. He is actually quite prepared to be self-sacrificing. Its just that he hhonestly cannot bring himself to believe that anyone else can be trusted to do the job right or to do it with the level of integrity he feels he would bring to the task. That he can't see how this fear weakens his own ability to lead well is one of the tragic aspects of his character.

[Billuriye]

Yeah, Lion does not share many of his brothers' thirst for power and glory as spoken by the greater daemon and his resistance against Chaos in tainted Caliban. I'd say he's the only primarch who can be attributed with uncorruptibility so far.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually believe, after reading your good explanation there Aegnor, that it's a bit of both. His mistrust of others is fuelled by the knowledge he has his own ambition, assuming others feel similarly.

 

There is no doubt in my mind he is loyal to the Emperor, but loyalty doesn't remove ambition or desire for self advancement. He was, after all, already planning on furthering his own position before the battle of Istvaan had even began. Sure he revised his disire and put it behind other priorities when the treachary extended, but it shows he had the strong desire in the first place.

 

You combine that with an insular, brooding personality where he distrusts EVERYONE and be paranoid, you will look to find reasons for potential treachary, hence why he evaluates Guilliman as a power hungry traitor little better than Horus because he has used what he knows to draw the conclusion.

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah, not like Guilliman is responsible for the deed that made Lorgar go on a soul-searching quest that spawned the Heresy. The Lion's a traitorous rascal for taking great pains to secure war-changing super weapons, and then handing them over to a Primarch specialized in siege warfare that was trusted by Dorn. How dare he?

 

Lorgar's a big, golden, whiny wienie and Pa Emperor should have gone all King Longshanks and shot Kor Phareon (or Erebus) in the face after making them kneel to show the wuss what for. For being such a hard as nails man when it came to his government's policies, he was hit and miss with his kids. He should have been a bit more "hit" with some of them. Especially Lorgar.

 

It goes back to first contact, Pa Emperor should have looked around and said "Ugh lost another one to Chaos. Leman? sick em."

[Simo429]

Remember when he attempted to strike a deal with Peturobo to become next Warmaster when the Heresy had just started and it wasn't even ended? That's the Lion's ambition and selfish motivations coming to the fore.

Whats this in?

[Captain Idaho]

I forget the name of the short story exactly, but it was the Tales of Heresy release.

[Epistolary Exander]

I forget the name of the short story exactly, but it was the Tales of Heresy release.

 

It happened at the end of Fallen Angels novel :).

[Captain Idaho]

Ah yes, of course.

[Arioch]

Well, I have not read the story yet, but I hardly find it odd that the Lion should mistrust Guilliman. Sure, we may know that G is not up to something, but how would the Lion tell the good from the bad, when he is in the far end of the galaxy, in the middle of nowhere and engaged by the Night Lords? Many of his brothers has already turned on the Emperor, lead by Horus, the most favored son of all the primarchs. He thougth Perturabo to be trustworthy, which turned out to be a big mistake, so how can he allow himself to fail again?

 

Before "Know no fear" it was pretty hard to see Guillimans intentions in the first place. Would he let the Emperor fall? Things have been cleared up now, but Johnson does not have this knowledge. So it seems like he is not going to rely on allies at the moment and do things his own way, not Guillimans.

[Conn Eremon]

I think that the "Darker" aspects of El'Johnson add something to his character, he had the strength to be tempted but to see what was right, where Guilliman was never tempted and Horus gave in, El'Johnson is the one who over-came the challenge.

 

Rik

 

Except Guilliman was tempted. Everyone was tempted by Chaos. Some came out more cleanly than others, and some obviously fell right into it. The Lion is being set up as one who didn't come out all too clean. He got sorely tempted it seems. Guilliman, on the other hand, is one of those who shrugged it off like it's nothing. Dorn is another obvious one who clearly wasn't fazed by any temptation. It seems like the Horus Heresy series is setting the Lion and his Legion up for that big Fall of Caliban day. Showing the Lion and Luther in contradictory ways so that when the time comes people aren't entirely sure who was loyal and who wasn't. With Luther giving in to Chaos already, we know the truth of it, but they're still putting enough to cast doubt. Which I believe is the entire point, to cast doubt. The Dark Angels are supposed to be one of the most insanely secretive factions of 40k, so it's all rather fitting, in my opinion.

 

I, for one, find the darker aspects of the Lion interesting. He was clearly extremely ambitious and came very close to be corrupted, and never quite returned to being pure.

[Billuriye]

Nah, Lion proved himself to be utterly loyal and untemptable. If you can stay pure inside a chaos ravaged planet from birth to adulthood alone and even a Lord of Change commends you for your lack of desire for power and ambition, you are pretty set.

[Rik Lightstar]

I'll re-phrase it, Guilliman (also Russ so-far) seem not to have been tempted by what they've been offered, so on this level there was little to resist, for others it was a closer thing (The Lion, maybe others to be revealed).

 

Also from "The Lighting Tower"

Dorn was VERY tempted, that was his biggest fear whilst fortifying the palace, that he would understand Horus' motives, and want to side with him.

 

 

Rik

[Captain Idaho]

I think that the "Darker" aspects of El'Johnson add something to his character, he had the strength to be tempted but to see what was right, where Guilliman was never tempted and Horus gave in, El'Johnson is the one who over-came the challenge.

 

Rik

 

Except Guilliman was tempted. Everyone was tempted by Chaos. Some came out more cleanly than others, and some obviously fell right into it. The Lion is being set up as one who didn't come out all too clean. He got sorely tempted it seems. Guilliman, on the other hand, is one of those who shrugged it off like it's nothing. Dorn is another obvious one who clearly wasn't fazed by any temptation. It seems like the Horus Heresy series is setting the Lion and his Legion up for that big Fall of Caliban day. Showing the Lion and Luther in contradictory ways so that when the time comes people aren't entirely sure who was loyal and who wasn't. With Luther giving in to Chaos already, we know the truth of it, but they're still putting enough to cast doubt. Which I believe is the entire point, to cast doubt. The Dark Angels are supposed to be one of the most insanely secretive factions of 40k, so it's all rather fitting, in my opinion.

 

I, for one, find the darker aspects of the Lion interesting. He was clearly extremely ambitious and came very close to be corrupted, and never quite returned to being pure.

 

This is what I was trying to say really! I too find this aspect of the Lion more interesting.

 

Remember we aren't critising the Lion or Dark Angels guys, but I do think some DA fans will find this side of them in the Heresy hard to swallow and I'm generally sorry for that. After all it's faily new to the background.

[Candleshoes]

 

“You suppose too much… I too received Guillman's summons. I do not concur with his plans, and I would no more trust him with this engine than any servant of Horus. I consider Ultramar no safer a place for this device than Perditus, and even if Guilliman does not use it for his own purposes, I cannot allow it to fall into the hands of the Emperor’s enemies… Tell my brothers that there is nothing for them here.”

 

“Tell Guilliman I have a reply for him… tell him to wait for me. I am coming.”

 

“Guilliman is a misguided fool at best, and a traitorous dog at worst… I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus. Curze has the truth of it, but I was blinded by my anger. It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced. Every event has its counter, every brother his equal. Curze seeks to sap my morale and the strength of my Legion with unending war. Such shall be the duty of the Dark Angels. Yes, they will be ready for the task. There will be no new Emperor, only a lifetime of war. My brothers will bleed each other dry, contesting for eternity until there can be no victor. No, not even him. There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutually annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.”

 

“No, it is too important… even if what you say is true, I cannot return to Caliban yet. Come what may, I have to stop Horus and Guilliman.”

 

… The Lion did the same, his whisper full of sorrow. “Yes, even if it costs me my Legion.”

 

 

There is more than simple mistrust in the above quotes and since we have the luxury of knowing the destination, but not the path, there are far more elements of a 'long view' in the above.

 

One might say that this description matches our current 40k setting, and if that is the case, then you can also say that maybe the Lion is responsible for a much larger chunk of why things went they way they did, in the Imperium, after the fall of Terra, when the greatest changes mankind would ever endure would be made. We all know that the surviving loyalist Primarchs had their own ideas as to how best to procede from the ashes, whether or not they ultimately sided with Roboute's path for mankind. This hints at the beginings of that opposition and how it may have either hindered or saved mankind.

 

Read that last quote carefully a few times, even that last sentance, there are a lot of different ways it can be taken, and in many different contexes. That isn't a paranoid primarch, that is a mind made up, after having planned the outcomes, and counting for the worst and best in everyone. And for those that might say how can Horus acknowledge the Emperor again, his sons and all those who fell still acknowledge the power of the corpse god that the Emperor has become, a saving grace in and of itself, and something far more powerful than if it was just a Primarch and the Council who took the reigns.

[Legatus]

Wow. I wanted to come her and say that Jonson was simply not good with people. But it seems he has indeed be turned into an extreme paranoid by the HH authors.

[Gree]

I'm not quite sure what to make of the Lion. KNF explictly explains the warp storms at the end at prohitbiting Imperial movement, and yet appearantly the Lion is able to have the option of reaching Guilliman.

[lhavoc]

Guilliman wasn't exactly looking all that trustworthy at the end of "Tales of Heresy" in any way. Instead of immediately heading for Terra to protect the Emperor and restore the Imperium, Gulliman and the Untramarines withdrew to Maccragge and launched a series of internal "war games". So they basically opted out of the war and looked to be setting up thier own "pocket empire". I know I was pretty distrustful of Guillman when he extended his "offer" to the Lion to break off of the Night Lords and join him in hiding from the war.

[Gree]

Guilliman wasn't exactly looking all that trustworthy at the end of "Tales of Heresy" in any way. Instead of immediately heading for Terra to protect the Emperor and restore the Imperium, Gulliman and the Untramarines withdrew to Maccragge and launched a series of internal "war games". So they basically opted out of the war and looked to be setting up thier own "pocket empire". I know I was pretty distrustful of Guillman when he extended his "offer" to the Lion to break off of the Night Lords and join him in hiding from the war.

 

Well yes, but Know No Fear has Erebus unleashing warp storms at the end of the Heresy right at Calth, which would give a good explanation of why Guilliman would be unable to move.