lhavoc Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But the Dark Angels didn't know that. The message from Guilliman never mentioned Calth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 the Lion is sorta paranoid by now, but who who wouldn't be? Primarchs have turned against the Emperor, Space Marines are fighting Space Marines. there is still no way for Lion to confirm who is on which side. his intelligence is shown when he meets the two opposing Space Marine legions fighting over something, he didn't just jump to conclusions and blow one side up his suspicions and mistrust of Guilliman is not sudden, it would have been born out of the years spent prior. moreover, despite his mistrusts of his brothers his loyalty towards the Emperor is not questioned, in fact reinforced by The Lion in The PRimarchs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But the Dark Angels didn't know that. The message from Guilliman never mentioned Calth. But if travel is restricted around Ultramar why would Guilliman request that the Lion join him? Why would he not inform the Lion of said travel difficulties? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 “You suppose too much… I too received Guillman's summons. I do not concur with his plans, and I would no more trust him with this engine than any servant of Horus. I consider Ultramar no safer a place for this device than Perditus, and even if Guilliman does not use it for his own purposes, I cannot allow it to fall into the hands of the Emperor’s enemies… Tell my brothers that there is nothing for them here.” “Tell Guilliman I have a reply for him… tell him to wait for me. I am coming.” “Guilliman is a misguided fool at best, and a traitorous dog at worst… I would no sooner bend my knee to him than to Horus. Curze has the truth of it, but I was blinded by my anger. It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced. Every event has its counter, every brother his equal. Curze seeks to sap my morale and the strength of my Legion with unending war. Such shall be the duty of the Dark Angels. Yes, they will be ready for the task. There will be no new Emperor, only a lifetime of war. My brothers will bleed each other dry, contesting for eternity until there can be no victor. No, not even him. There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutually annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.” “No, it is too important… even if what you say is true, I cannot return to Caliban yet. Come what may, I have to stop Horus and Guilliman.” … The Lion did the same, his whisper full of sorrow. “Yes, even if it costs me my Legion.” There is more than simple mistrust in the above quotes and since we have the luxury of knowing the destination, but not the path, there are far more elements of a 'long view' in the above. One might say that this description matches our current 40k setting, and if that is the case, then you can also say that maybe the Lion is responsible for a much larger chunk of why things went they way they did, in the Imperium, after the fall of Terra, when the greatest changes mankind would ever endure would be made. We all know that the surviving loyalist Primarchs had their own ideas as to how best to procede from the ashes, whether or not they ultimately sided with Roboute's path for mankind. This hints at the beginings of that opposition and how it may have either hindered or saved mankind. Read that last quote carefully a few times, even that last sentance, there are a lot of different ways it can be taken, and in many different contexes. That isn't a paranoid primarch, that is a mind made up, after having planned the outcomes, and counting for the worst and best in everyone. And for those that might say how can Horus acknowledge the Emperor again, his sons and all those who fell still acknowledge the power of the corpse god that the Emperor has become, a saving grace in and of itself, and something far more powerful than if it was just a Primarch and the Council who took the reigns. I think Candleshoes has the right idea here. The Lion isn't jumping at shadows. As has been stated earlier in this thread he doesn't have the same information that we, the readers, have in regards to a lot of the primarch's motivations. I agree with Candleshoes. The Lion has weighed all the options, judged his brothers, and made the decision that only he can truly save the Emperor and the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhavoc Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But the Dark Angels didn't know that. The message from Guilliman never mentioned Calth. But if travel is restricted around Ultramar why would Guilliman request that the Lion join him? Why would he not inform the Lion of said travel difficulties? By inferrence, it shows that at the time of the message, travel to Ultramar was not restricted. I may be a little fuzzy as to the timeline, but at the end of "Tales of Heresy", when the message was received, Calth hadn't happened yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But the Dark Angels didn't know that. The message from Guilliman never mentioned Calth. But if travel is restricted around Ultramar why would Guilliman request that the Lion join him? Why would he not inform the Lion of said travel difficulties? By inferrence, it shows that at the time of the message, travel to Ultramar was not restricted. I may be a little fuzzy as to the timeline, but at the end of "Tales of Heresy", when the message was received, Calth hadn't happened yet. Guilliman did not even know of the Heresy until Calth was already underway according to KNF. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Am I right in thinking that he is talking to the watchers in the dark at the end of the story? I think what the writers or is it just writer I can't remember of the lion have failed to do as has been done with every other Primarch is establish the tragedy of his life. I have seen it in all the others that we have read about from Horus to Russ, Lorgar to Guilliman but not the Lion yet. He hasn't lost anything or really been seen to make a difficult choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 By inferrence, it shows that at the time of the message, travel to Ultramar was not restricted. I may be a little fuzzy as to the timeline, but at the end of "Tales of Heresy", when the message was received, Calth hadn't happened yet. By the timeline you should infer that the Massacre at Calth had happened before Guilliman sent that message as Guilliman was busy gathering his forces at Calth and it was only after the Word Bearers revealed the heresy to the UM that Guilliman knew about the heresy raging outside of Ultramar. Also it had been stated in Savage Weapons that the DA had been fighting the NL for 2 years after the events in Fallen Angels, while the Battle of Calth was stated to have happened a year after Istvan 5 which was also after the events in Fallen Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Andrew Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 great thoughts candleshoes. I am definitely seeing the whole hyper paranoid thing and that explains alot of the Lion's actions, I guess my biggest question left is why does the Lion think Guilliman would be a traitor or trying to usurp the Emperor's throne? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 To play the unpopular devil's advocate here: What if the Calth incident isn't just to prevent a "loyal" RG from being able to help the Emp. What if it was also, if perhaps only in Horus' mind, an attempt to also eliminate a potential rival to the throne. Perhaps the perception of the other Primarchs is to distrust RG, viewing him as a fawning sycophant, trying to place himself ever closer to the Emperor. Perhaps they see him as a scheming, manipulative SOB. There is apparently some reason that they are always wondering "what he is going to get out of it for himself"....What has he done in the past to make them think that? Once again, let me reiterate I am playing devil's advocate here and putting forth some thoughts in that direction. I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING RG........So don't get your panties in a wad, as some of you are want to do.... ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 To play the unpopular devil's advocate here: What if the Calth incident isn't just to prevent a "loyal" RG from being able to help the Emp. What if it was also, if perhaps only in Horus' mind, an attempt to also eliminate a potential rival to the throne. Perhaps the perception of the other Primarchs is to distrust RG, viewing him as a fawning sycophant, trying to place himself ever closer to the Emperor. Perhaps they see him as a scheming, manipulative SOB. There is apparently some reason that they are always wondering "what he is going to get out of it for himself"....What has he done in the past to make them think that? Once again, let me reiterate I am playing devil's advocate here and putting forth some thoughts in that direction. I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING RG........So don't get your panties in a wad, as some of you are want to do.... ~BtW I believe in 'Aurelian' by ADB Horus doesn't really want Lorgar to go to Ultramar. I'll check my book later and see if I can back my statement up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Kind of seems like the Lion is fighting against the wrong side. Total Greyjoy move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 To play the unpopular devil's advocate here: What if the Calth incident isn't just to prevent a "loyal" RG from being able to help the Emp. What if it was also, if perhaps only in Horus' mind, an attempt to also eliminate a potential rival to the throne. Perhaps the perception of the other Primarchs is to distrust RG, viewing him as a fawning sycophant, trying to place himself ever closer to the Emperor. Perhaps they see him as a scheming, manipulative SOB. There is apparently some reason that they are always wondering "what he is going to get out of it for himself"....What has he done in the past to make them think that? Once again, let me reiterate I am playing devil's advocate here and putting forth some thoughts in that direction. I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING RG........So don't get your panties in a wad, as some of you are want to do.... ~BtW I believe in 'Aurelian' by ADB Horus doesn't really want Lorgar to go to Ultramar. I'll check my book later and see if I can back my statement up. Sadly I was not able to pick that one up when it was released....Please do and let me know.... And of course, we do know that Lorgar actually didn't go to Calth himself, but sent Kor Phaeron.....but that could be totally irrelevant depending on what was said/told in "Aurelian"... But I am still wondering, and playing devil's advocate here... What could have been done by RG to create such a level of mistrust? and it seems that its not just with one or two, but with several of the primarchs.... ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 The Lion doesn't trust Guilliman, because the Lion doesn't trust anyone. I think this is a case where what a person says about someone else says much more about the person speaking rather than who they speak of. The Lion is a tragic figure in the sense that in spite of being so intelligent and capable, he misses the forest for the trees. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 But I am still wondering, and playing devil's advocate here... What could have been done by RG to create such a level of mistrust? and it seems that its not just with one or two, but with several of the primarchs.... 'Know no Fear' seems to suggest that it was the scope of Guilliman's achievements, which far outshined those of his brothers. IIRC he ponders how he constantly felt like having to excuse himself for his achievements, and then felt guilty for excusing himself. Because of his success, and because it was due to his beadth of logistic understanding, his brothers thought that all his actions would be motivated in some way by how they would benefit himself. It is a shame none of the other Primarchs got to know his foster father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Yeah; the mistrust of Guilliman is just another one of those tradegies of the Heresy - misplace mistrust. The Lion takes the mistrust of Guilliman a step further because he mistrusts everyone anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 What if the Calth incident isn't just to prevent a "loyal" RG from being able to help the Emp. What if it was also, if perhaps only in Horus' mind, an attempt to also eliminate a potential rival to the throne. If that was the case the Word Bearers would have simply destroyed Guilliman's flagship at Calth and then let the coldness of space kill Guilliman if he survived the blast, or some other logical approach :lol:. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3056833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I thought the Word Bearers needed to bolster their fleet by taking battleships over in boarding actions (since cruisers are 2 a pennie!). And didn't Guilliman's ship have it's shields back online? My memory fails me! But the Word Bearers did fully intend to wipe out the Ultramarines and their Primarch in the engagement, it just wasn't the most important goal at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Guilliman's summons to the loyalists, including the Lion, happened after Calth. Therefore Savage Weapons, and The Lion happened after Calth. My guess is Guilliman anticipated people would find traveling to Ultramar hard and be delayed, but still felt it was the best course of action - he'd concluded already that no-one not already near Terra would be able to get there on time, before the defenders of Terra were overwhelmed. Ultramar on the other hand would likely have more time to prepare. The mistrust of Guilliman is due to his success and his tendency to seek to instil his views of the best way to do things on others. The Primarchs were leaders, not followers, and only generally readily accepted the Emperor as their superior. Many were surprisingly insecure in terms of their relationship with their siblings - Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, the Lion. Even Horus noted that only a couple of Primarchs readily accepted him as Warmaster - I think it was Fulgrim, Dorn and Sanguinius. Others accepted him because the Emperor told them to, like Guilliman and Russ. Others openly resented him or indeed anyone seeking to direct them - your Angrons, Curzes etc. (This is from Horus Rising). Now you have Guilliman suggesting a plan separate to the Emperor's appointed defender (Dorn), when he hasn't even been designated as the leader by the Emperor, and who is less concerned with babysitting/manipulating egos than Horus, and he's going to get people's noses out of joint. Some who know him will say, "It's Guilliman - he always makes the best plans and is utterly loyal to the Emperor's vision" and go along with it. Others will interpret it thru their paranoias or concerns and say "he's trying to betray the Emperor" or "he's trying to make himself the boss" and react against it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 The Lion doesn't trust Guilliman, because the Lion doesn't trust anyone. Isn't there something hinted about the Lion having problems interacting with people due to a deliberate design feature (roughly akin to Asperger's) as he's very clever but can't read people or interact with them the way others can? Something about being coldly tactical and discounting human emotions in everything he does? It's why he offers all the guns to Perturabo. Then again when half (over half?) of the Legions have sided with Horus some of them are bound to have trust issues. RG: Come to Ultramar! Loyalist Primarchs: Lolwut? And leave the Emprah defenceless on Terra? Ya, that'll happen. RG: No, seriously, come to Ultramar so we can win the war! Russ: Listen here - you're wrong about leaving Terra exposed and you're wrong about Marines not needing Bolter, Bolt Pistol *and* Combat Weapons so you can keep your tactics and Ultramar to yourself. The rest of us are heading for Terra cos that's where the war will be fought and we're right. Aren't we? Sanguinius: Well I do like my grunts to carry Pistols and Combat weapons... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Given Gullimans plan for the future involves "heresy" and a "New Imperium" in his own words. If he used that description or something that hinted at it to the Lion it would explain how the Lion came to that point of view. Not sure whether the Lion would have considered the RG more successful given the Lion had more victories(DA codex) but less worlds brought in compliance. Therefore would question any suggestion RG is in charge especially as the Emperor has put Dorn in charge. I certainly think the Lion was a mistrustful individual and this in part led to the way he viewed RG's proposal. But if RG has said " my fleet is destroyed my arse kicked but i have managed to drive the word bearers off, come help me. So we can go save the Emperor" I don't think the Lion would be thinking that RG wants to be the next Emperor......... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I've said this elsewhere but it's a fundamental mistake people keep mis-interpretting about Guilliman: People are get getting it confused; Guilliman wasn't giving up on the Emperor, he was accepting the Emperor couldn't be saved. He was planning for what happened afterwards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I've said this elsewhere but it's a fundamental mistake people keep mis-interpretting about Guilliman: People are get getting it confused; Guilliman wasn't giving up on the Emperor, he was accepting the Emperor couldn't be saved. He was planning for what happened afterwards. I believe that too but I think its his planning for after the Emperor's dead that makes the Lion mistrust him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Now you have Guilliman suggesting a plan separate to the Emperor's appointed defender (Dorn), when he hasn't even been designated as the leader by the Emperor RG: No, seriously, come to Ultramar so we can win the war!Russ: Listen here - you're wrong about leaving Terra exposed Not sure whether the Lion would have considered the RG more successful given the Lion had more victories(DA codex) but less worlds brought in compliance. Therefore would question any suggestion RG is in charge especially as the Emperor has put Dorn in charge. IIRC this happened very early in the Heresy (about two years in), and neither Guilliman nor Jonson had been able to make contact with Terra. So for one thing they were probably not aware that Rogal Dorn was put in charge of the defence of Terra, or that he wasn't on Horus' team (as unlikely as they might have found that). The second thing is that defending Terra was not the most pressing issue at that time. It would be five more years before the traitors would be at Terra. And before that point the Space Wolves had not been on Terra either, I might add. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 The second thing is that defending Terra was not the most pressing issue at that time. It would be five more years before the traitors would be at Terra. Gulliman does not know that, for all he knows the rest of traitors are already there. After all the Wordbearers are shown in Mechanicus to make up most of the terran systems marine defenders plus the Lion is acting like it is far more pressing and urgent Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252015-why-does-the-lion-distrust-guilliman/page/2/#findComment-3057277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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