Why does the Lion distrust Guilliman?

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, the desire was to stop Horus before reaching Terra because he couldn't be stopped if he did, since he had overwhelming force and Imperial forces were scattered across the galaxy. That's why Guilliman planned for post-Siege of Terra and keeping the rest of the Imperium intact.

[eyeslikethunder]

If RG had been clever he would not have raised the Lions fears by going into his Post-emperor plans and put himself in bad light during a period when brotherly trust was not at a maximum

[The_son_of_Dorn]

If anything the Lion is denoting signs of being the one who should of become the first traitor Primarch. Granted he was not as the role better suited Horus, but I mean c'mon hes shaping up the be a true 'Dark Angel' unless of course his real strength comes from independancy and the only one he can reason with in the mistrust of the civil war is himself. Thusly beinga hero when he wants to be, and being a war mongerer when he feels like it.

 

Lion el Johnson, more like Lion el Lucifer.

[Captain Idaho]

If RG had been clever he would not have raised the Lions fears by going into his Post-emperor plans and put himself in bad light during a period when brotherly trust was not at a maximum

 

I don't think you can blame everyone else for the Lion's problems. He doesn't trust the Space Wolves or Imperial Fists either, thinks Night Haunter was telling the truth, wants to be Warmaster and has allowed for his Legion to fracture into open armed conflict and rebellion etc.

 

Is that all other people's fault too?

 

:)

[WGXH]

If RG had been clever he would not have raised the Lions fears by going into his Post-emperor plans and put himself in bad light during a period when brotherly trust was not at a maximum

 

I don't think you can blame everyone else for the Lion's problems. He doesn't trust the Space Wolves or Imperial Fists either, thinks Night Haunter was telling the truth, wants to be Warmaster and has allowed for his Legion to fracture into open armed conflict and rebellion etc.

 

Is that all other people's fault too?

 

:)

 

I don't think you can blame the Lion for Guilliman's problems. He doesn't trust anybody other than Dorn, Mannus, Sanguinius and Russ, thinks Lorgar was coming to give him a big hug, wants The Emperor to die to rule over the ashes and has allowed the Imperium to go without the aid of his Legion until the Scouring.

 

Is that the Lion's fault too?

 

 

Man, it's easy to misconstrue things.

 

 

As far as I am concerned: The Lion is simply taking his paranoia to another step with regards to Guilliman. Growing up on a Chaos-infested death world means you take absolutely nothing at face value. Istvaan was a wonderful killing spree- by the other team. So too could Guilliman's gesture. I havn't read the new short story- still in post- but I beleive

his opinion on such things is shown by how he treats with the Iron Hands. He doesn't automatically assume that they were waging a war for a dead father, as many would.

It's another potential threat to the only people that The Lion can trust- himself, his father, and his legion.

 

In time, I'm sure future novels will expand a bit on that- I'm sure while Lion and Russ won't ever be drinking ale together, their friendship will grow based on the fact that the two know that they are both utterly loyal in such dark times.

[Legatus]

One thing that struck me as curious in 'The Lion' was that Jonson was described as having a very keen insight into people's motives and intentions in a few instances. He could tell that the navigator was being honest just by looking into her eyes, and he knew the Death Guard Captain was operating independently from his Primarch just by what he did and didn't tell him about his mission on Perditus. Yet it seems Jonson is entirely incapable to sense the motives of other Primarchs. He was fooled by Perturabo to hand over the siege weapons, and he was unable to ascertain Guilliman's good intentions when he met him or talked to him. What's more, Jonson seems to be unable to read his own sons (or "little borthers" as he calls them) in the way he reads others. In 'The Lion' he mistrusts one of his Captains. And I remember how in an earlier story (I think it was 'Call of the Lion' or something like that?) it is suggested that Jonson mistrusted all the terran elements in his Legion and had each independent Terran Chapter shadowed by a Calibanite Chapter that reported directly to him.

 

Perhaps it unnerved him that he could not read Primarchs as well as other mortals. And perhaps he had issues with closeness, and that inhibited his abilities to read his own Marines as well as those of other Legions, or as mere humans.

[Lord Tharand]

To play the unpopular devil's advocate here:

 

What if the Calth incident isn't just to prevent a "loyal" RG from being able to help the Emp. What if it was also, if perhaps only in Horus' mind, an attempt to also eliminate a potential rival to the throne.

 

Perhaps the perception of the other Primarchs is to distrust RG, viewing him as a fawning sycophant, trying to place himself ever closer to the Emperor. Perhaps they see him as a scheming, manipulative SOB. There is apparently some reason that they are always wondering "what he is going to get out of it for himself"....What has he done in the past to make them think that?

 

Once again, let me reiterate I am playing devil's advocate here and putting forth some thoughts in that direction. I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING RG........So don't get your panties in a wad, as some of you are want to do....

 

 

~BtW

 

I believe in 'Aurelian' by ADB Horus doesn't really want Lorgar to go to Ultramar. I'll check my book later and see if I can back my statement up.

 

 

Sadly I was not able to pick that one up when it was released....Please do and let me know....

 

And of course, we do know that Lorgar actually didn't go to Calth himself, but sent Kor Phaeron.....but that could be totally irrelevant depending on what was said/told in "Aurelian"...

 

But I am still wondering, and playing devil's advocate here... What could have been done by RG to create such a level of mistrust? and it seems that its not just with one or two, but with several of the primarchs....

 

~BtW

 

Aurelian page 112:

 

 

Horus released a slow breath. 'We have argued over this many times, and I was a fool to let your enthusiasms run as wild as your imagination for this long. You do not have enough warriors to achieve what you plan.'

 

'And I have told you, brother, my apostles are prepared to sail into Ultramar. We have made pacts with divine forces you still struggle to comprehend...'

 

Horus goes on to tell Lorgar he needs Legionaries and ultimately gives him more soldiers in the form of the World Eaters Legion.

 

[Brannick]

Nemiel has featured in the best part of one and a half HH novels and then gets killed in a sentence! He was shaping up to be a main character in my opinion.

 

Anyway, I digress - thoroughly enjoyed the DA short story and can't but help think there is much, much more to come where Jonson and his gang are concerned.

 

Bravo.

[eyeslikethunder]

There is apparently some reason that they are always wondering "what he is going to get out of it for himself"....What has he done in the past to make them think that?

 

I have wondered this but nothing so far suggests that RG would do something like that......

 

Maybe he likes to plan and order things and therefore is always selflessly accumulating power but others see this as power creep and part of long term cunning plan

[Arioch]

Well, if Guilliman have indeed made plans for an Imperium without the Emperor, the Lion is right to mistrust him. The Lion would rather see him, his legion and the Imperium destroyed than see the Emperor dead. It could be those plans that the Lion regards as "treacherous". Its two ways to regard your duty really- Guillimans priorities: The Imperium and its people. Johnson: The Emperor.

 

Maybe intelligent design by the Emperor? ;)

 

Just a suggestion of course.

 

Well, if Guilliman have indeed made plans for an Imperium without the Emperor, the Lion is right to mistrust him. The Lion would rather see him, his legion and the Imperium destroyed than see the Emperor dead. It could be those plans that the Lion regards as "treacherous". Its two ways to regard your duty really- Guillimans priorities: The Imperium and its people. Johnson: The Emperor.

 

Maybe intelligent design by the Emperor? :P

 

Just a suggestion of course.

[Legatus]

Well, if Guilliman have indeed made plans for an Imperium without the Emperor, the Lion is right to mistrust him. The Lion would rather see him, his legion and the Imperium destroyed than see the Emperor dead.

And then he rips the head off of one of his Chaplains for insisting to adhere to the Emperor's edict instead of obeying a direct command of Jonson...

[The Broker]

Why does the Lion distrust Roboute?

 

Half the primarchs have just turned traitor - one of whom deceived you into giving him heavy weapons to use against your own side.

 

Now another is asking you to come defend him instead of your liege.

 

The Lion is paranoid enough with finding out that his Legion is turning traitor back on Caliban, so I'd say it's a combination of the previous as to why he doesn't trust Guilliman.

[Conn Eremon]

There is apparently some reason that they are always wondering "what he is going to get out of it for himself"....What has he done in the past to make them think that?

 

I have wondered this but nothing so far suggests that RG would do something like that......

 

Maybe he likes to plan and order things and therefore is always selflessly accumulating power but others see this as power creep and part of long term cunning plan

 

He doesn't have to have done something to have people think that he is out for himself. Just because the a lot of Primarchs are suspicious of him and wonder such things about him doesn't mean that there suspicions are true, or even partly based on truths. One thing the Horus Heresy novels have shown us is that virtually all the Primarchs suffered from extensive ego trips. Understandably so, they're the best humanity has to offer outside of the Emperor himself and that has gotten to their head. It's not a stretch of logic at all to say that these suspicions are more based off of their egos getting in the way rather than any past actions of one or the other. Guilliman's no different, either. Many of the laws laid down through the Codex Astartes show that he was rather suspicious of the other Primarchs as well, and he clearly felt that the path he was setting down was the right path, not the paths that others were advocating.

[ZAChos]

The way I see it, as every Primarch has a strength, so they also have a flaw. RG combines amazing logistical skills with an absolutely stunning naivety that causes him to send all of his tactical treatises to all of his brothers and outlawing the study of fighting against Astartes.

 

The Lion has a similar tactical mind, mostly in a military rather than logistical way (more compliant worlds, no infrastructure created) but the other side of the flaw coin is shown by his extreme mistrust at the slightest provocation, even of his foster father.

 

As an aside I believe that the only primarch to not have a flaw that has been explored is Sanguinius. He's really being set up as the poster boy of the series so that his death is even more poignant.

 

Maybe I'm the only one, but I've always been of the opinion that the Lion was flawed in this way, ever since I first read about the Heresy ages ago. Has everyone been shocked by this element of his character?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

As an aside I believe that the only primarch to not have a flaw that has been explored is Sanguinius. He's really being set up as the poster boy of the series so that his death is even more poignant.

 

Maybe I'm the only one, but I've always been of the opinion that the Lion was flawed in this way, ever since I first read about the Heresy ages ago. Has everyone been shocked by this element of his character?

 

Just wondering, in the case of Sanguinius, wouldnt be too good be considered a flaw?

 

and I am not shocked by the Lion's actions, as everytime he has trusted another it ends up badly. What he did learn (as a small child raising himself on the wilds of Caliban) is that he himself is resistant to the lure of Chaos, and is of enough strength to prevail over the challanges laid before him up to this point in the HH series. So I am not really shocked that he doesnt trust those around him, Primarch or Astartes.

 

WLK

[Grey Knight Purifier]

Guilliman is somewhat untrustworthy. They way I see it, he wants to be obeyed. After the Heresy, he fires on Dorn, because he rejected the Codex. I think the Lion is partially justified in his paranoia.

 

In regards to Sanguinius, I would be quite unhappy if they gave him some random flaw. Sanguinius is specifically stated to be as close to perfection as humanly possible. After the Emperor, he is the most perfect being in the entirety of 40k.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Guilliman is somewhat untrustworthy. They way I see it, he wants to be obeyed. After the Heresy, he fires on Dorn, because he rejected the Codex. I think the Lion is partially justified in his paranoia.

 

Well, from what i remember, Guilliman doesnt fire on Dorn after the HH, but the Imperial Navy does. I have no doubt that Guilliman would find a non-violent way to coerce his brothers if thought it was required.

 

Also, if Guilliman wanted to be obeyed he would have keep absolute control of the newly created Imperium of Man after the Heresy, rather than turning it over to the High Lords.

 

so, while it is fun to play conspiracy theory, so far Guilliman hasnt done anything that screams "dictator"

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

As WLK said, the Terrible Angel incident happened three years after the initial argument. Im pretty sure Guilliman wasn't responsible. It was fallout for Dorn's belligerence and absence.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, I'm pretty satisfied that Guilliman is utterly self-less, but utterly committed to what he sees as the right thing to do. Thus he gives over power to the HLoT when no-one would have been ableto stop him if he had decided to seize control himself. But I'm also pretty certain that he's often pretty ruthlessly efficient in pursuing that "right thing to do" - not maliciously but just acting from a "bigger picture"/logic kinda position. He also seems to too often assume others share or can be persuaded to the same kind of selflessness, and to underestimate the degree to which others will doubt his selflessness (and instead assume he must has a sinister ulterior motive).

[Rik Lightstar]

I think that Guilliman's true flaw AND strength is that he does the "right" thing every time, not the nice thing, not the friendly thing, not the likable thing, this is truly a flaw when you see that he judges others by the same standard.

 

For those who've read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan, he is just like Galad in this respect.

 

Also, Sanguinius' flaw is well established, he's a mutant, ya know, big flappy swan wings!

[Aegnor]

Girly hair too. And his boys wear armor with molded nipples. :huh:

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The Lion is a coldly ruthless tactician. Watch the anime code geass for another example of this mindset.

 

The Lion is not blinded by morality or ethics, he is loyal to the Emperor and the Emperor alone.

 

Remember there is no command structure anymore, there was the Emperor and then the Warmaster, each Primarch being an independent general and agent of Imperial authority.

 

Now that the Warmaster has gone rogue, the Lion is subordinate to nobody save the Emperor and he acts accordingly.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Lion is a bit like Stannis isn't he? Charmless, friendless, dutiful, but entirely too serious and incapable of leading men who arnt like him.

[Rik Lightstar]

I think Stannis is a stellar example of a character like El'Johnson, neither can see why they're not liked and both have a sense of "entitlement" despite the evidence that might show how they are not best suited to the role.

 

I can see that El'Johnson was a great field commander but there's little back up the idea that he'd be suited to the role of Warmaster, and he felt he was passed over for it.

 

Rik

[Gree]

As WLK said, the Terrible Angel incident happened three years after the initial argument. Im pretty sure Guilliman wasn't responsible. It was fallout for Dorn's belligerence and absence.

 

Index Astartes Black Templars does not specify a timeframe, and according to older sources Guilliman was in command of the Imperial military..........