Why does the Lion distrust Guilliman?

[Captain Idaho]

If Guilliman was responsible for the Imperial Navy firing on the Imperial Fists simply because he was in charge of the Imperial military at the time, does that mean the Imperial Fists who defied him done so because he ordered them too, since he was in charge of the Imperial military?

 

We know next to nothing about that incident, only that the Imperial Navy fired upon an Imperial Fist ship. Blaming Guilliman without evidence is a little rash don't you think?

 

Anyway, I think the Lion distrusting Guilliman is just another example of his character flaws in action. Why not use military intelligence to establish what Guilliman was up, if you have doubts? These are things the Lion doesn't even contemplate yet common sense to most commanders. We know Guilliman was using agents to accumilate intelligence and resources despite not being able to transport his forces, whilst Iron Hands and White Scars were still fighting the traitors so it's clearly possible.

 

To be honest, I think he wouldn't trust Dorn's commands either.

[Gree]

If Guilliman was responsible for the Imperial Navy firing on the Imperial Fists simply because he was in charge of the Imperial military at the time, does that mean the Imperial Fists who defied him done so because he ordered them too, since he was in charge of the Imperial military?

 

We know next to nothing about that incident, only that the Imperial Navy fired upon an Imperial Fist ship. Blaming Guilliman without evidence is a little rash don't you think?

 

When did I blame Guilliman? I was simply throwing about a bit of conjecture and letting people draw their own conclusions.

[Arkangilos]

How can you all say Guilliman did not want to help the Emperor?

I mean, one of the reasons Horus rushed the whole seige thing and lowered his shields was because the Ultras, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels were on their way, and the Ultra's and Wolves had only like a week until they arrived.

[Captain Idaho]

If Guilliman was responsible for the Imperial Navy firing on the Imperial Fists simply because he was in charge of the Imperial military at the time, does that mean the Imperial Fists who defied him done so because he ordered them too, since he was in charge of the Imperial military?

 

We know next to nothing about that incident, only that the Imperial Navy fired upon an Imperial Fist ship. Blaming Guilliman without evidence is a little rash don't you think?

 

When did I blame Guilliman? I was simply throwing about a bit of conjecture and letting people draw their own conclusions.

 

After the point was made that Guilliman was not responsible for the Imperial Navy firing on the Imperial Fists, you posted information that was only necessary if being used as a counter point. If you really wanted to provide information so people could make their own decisions, you would have laid out all the facts about the nature of the High Lords and Guilliman's position in particular, pointing out that his position as Commander of all Imperial Military was an umbrella that included the Legions who were "rebelling", so people could see i wasn't as black and white a position as you infered. You also wouldn't have made use of ellipsis at the end of the end of your post either.

 

You, me and everyone else can see what you were implying.

[shortysl]

I mean, one of the reasons Horus rushed the whole seige thing and lowered his shields was because the Ultras, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels were on their way, and the Ultra's and Wolves had only like a week until they arrived.

 

Wait, what? When did we find out the reason for Horus lowering his Barge's shields?

[Captain Idaho]

There was a brief but cool series in White Dwarf where they detailed sieges and the first one was a historic evaluation of the Siege of the Emperor's palace, where it stated the reason for Horus feeling rushed and lowering his shields was because of approaching Dark Angels and Space Wolves Legions who were fresh and he only had his own Sons of Horus who were uncommitted in comparison. The mentioning of the Ultramarines was the art work books released, who many believe the Heresy series are following very closely though there are books and details not included in those books.

[shortysl]

There was a brief but cool series in White Dwarf where they detailed sieges and the first one was a historic evaluation of the Siege of the Emperor's palace, where it stated the reason for Horus feeling rushed and lowering his shields was because of approaching Dark Angels and Space Wolves Legions who were fresh and he only had his own Sons of Horus who were uncommitted in comparison. The mentioning of the Ultramarines was the art work books released, who many believe the Heresy series are following very closely though there are books and details not included in those books.

 

Well I'll be........

 

I've no idea where I was when that came about but I was still labouring under the impression that it was still a mystery, that some thought it was a last minute feeling of guilt that provoked it. Thanks for the update.

[Gree]

After the point was made that Guilliman was not responsible for the Imperial Navy firing on the Imperial Fists, you posted information that was only necessary if being used as a counter point.

 

I posted the full(er) context of the fluff so people could make judgements for themselves.

 

If you really wanted to provide information so people could make their own decisions, you would have laid out all the facts about the nature of the High Lords and Guilliman's position in particular, pointing out that his position as Commander of all Imperial Military was an umbrella that included the Legions who were "rebelling", so people could see i wasn't as black and white a position as you infered. You also wouldn't have made use of ellipsis at the end of the end of your post either.

 

You, me and everyone else can see what you were implying.

 

All I see is an overly defensive response directed at me who just tried to expand things more fully.

[Crimson Hawk]

Hi everyone, I just finished The Lion from the new Primarchs book, and I was intrigued by one of the final comments of the story.

 

 

In the book the Lion appears to secure a weapon that could alter the war, but instead of immediately bringing the weapon to the loyalists, as Guilliman had commanded other space marines to do, he launches into a soliloquy about how he cannot trust anyone, and that Guilliman and Horus are both power hungry waiting to take the throne. The Lion believes he must make sure that no one becomes emperor other than the emperor.

 

 

Maybe it is my slight Ultramarine bias, nut I don't know where this distrust of Guilliman is coming from. It doesn't seem like simple jealousy and it is easy to see the Lion and Guilliman being less than the best of brothers, but other than personality conflict I can't see a reason for the above view of the Ultramarines and Guilliman. Can anybody point me to some info to back up this view, because for the most part I remember Guilliman getting along well with most loyalist primarchs (the Dauntless few and white scars evidently as they ar named in KNF to be admired and dependable)

Well, they're both scheming, paranoid tactical genini, so they'd naturally distrust each other ;)

[Droma]

I think the biggest thing we need in this thread is the timeline being straightened out.

 

Descent of Angels (Lion grows up on Caliban, Emperor finds the Lion, Lion mistrustful of librarians and Luther)

+ X years

Nikea Decree (Librarians can no longer use psyker powers)

+ X years

Heresy Starts (Emperors forces on the way to Istvaan system)

Fallen Angels (First loyalist vs traitor battle, Lion gives siege weapons to Iron warriors)

Drop site massacre (Lion finds out he gave weapons to a traitor)

Know No Fear (Calth, Robby G finds out some of his brothers went traitor)

+ 2 years

Rules of Engagement (Ultramarine wargames, Robby G writing the start of the codex)

Savage Weapons (Lion fights Curze, words of Curze get to him, recieves message from Robby G telling him to go to macragge but exact message contents not revealed(without details it is hard to know how much the Lion is jumping at false conclusions))

The Lion (Doesn't trust deathguard or iron hands, ultimately can't let Horus have the item and doesn't trust Robby G with it either, while fighting with the fateweaver he gets confirmation the Emperor is still alive(keep in mind its 2 years after Istvaan and he hasn't heard from Tera), Lion knows something funky is happening on Caliban that could split his legion)

 

 

Now that we have a time line lets also be clear on one other part. Robby G is very clearly on the side of mankind and the imperium, he is not on the side of the Emperor.

Quote from Rules of Engagement

 

In the wake of the devastation unleashed on Calth, the Legion was looking to him for leadership more than ever. His warriors had suffered a grievous blow to their pride, and desperately needed to see their primogenitor. Helots brought petitions for audiences from his Chapter captains every day, but this endeavour was too important to grant such requests.

 

They did not understand why he sequestered himself away from his sons, but they did not need to understand. All that was required of them was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

 

In all his years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice.

 

The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

 

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on. His father would understand that, even if others would not. Roboute Guilliman wrote two words at the top of the right-hand page: words of treachery, words of salvation. Words to herald a new beginning.

 

Imperium Secundus.

 

 

And from later in the book

 

At last he said, ‘I have a plan, yes, and it is a dangerous one, too dangerous to divulge for the moment. But when the time comes to put it into action, I must ask you all to trust me as never before. When that time comes, you will be called traitors, cowards and faithless weaklings, but nothing could be further from the truth. I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium as we know it, and that is why I had you fight these mock engagements. However this war plays out, it is inevitable that you will need to fight warriors you count as brothers. Perhaps even those who currently stand in opposition to the Warmaster.’

 

 

Going off all the info in the quotes we know Robby G is ultimately doing the "right" thing. However it is technically going against the Emperor who the Lion is utterly loyal to. Harken back to the Lion receiving the message from Robby G. At that point in time he didn't know if the Emperor was alive or dead. We also don't know how much Robby G told the Lion about his plans in his message. If it was just "hey come to ultramar and we'll have a anti-horus party" there isn't much reason to be suspicous. But if Robby G said something like "I think dad and his imperium is done for, we should team up and totally pwn Horus after he's exhausted from the fighting, I've got this rad idea to create the imperium v2" we can see why the Lion would be suitably upset. Both of those examples were hyperbole taken to the extreme but it does illustrate that depending on what was in the message the Lion has every right to be suspicious of his brother.

 

Please see Candleshoes post on page 1 for the Lions relevant text on the subject.

 

At this point I don't think the Lion is paranoid and mistrustful of everybody because he's a naturally paranoid dude. He's paranoid and mistrustful of everybody because EVERYONE is inherently untrustworthy in a time when brothers are fighting against brothers and for the last two years you're not even sure if your father is alive. The Lion is defending the imperium that is, Horus is destroying the imperium that is, Guilliman is fighting for the imperium that could be.

 

From Captain Idaho

"You combine that with an insular, brooding personality where he distrusts EVERYONE and be paranoid, you will look to find reasons for potential treachary, hence why he evaluates Guilliman as a power hungry traitor little better than Horus because he has used what he knows to draw the conclusion. "

 

Sorry to say to you Ultramarine fans I know this point is a little hard to swallow but...Guilliman knows what he's doing is treason, he says it right in the text. He is a traitor little better than Horus. That being said I think Guiliman is totally right in his actions from a larger human and moral scale, however quoted text is quoted text, he IS a traitor(at least at this point in time which is currently +2 years after Istvaan).

[Lagbenektelse]

"it seems horus is not the only one that believes the throne is his" RG had a base.

[Candleshoes]

The Lion is a bit like Stannis isn't he? Charmless, friendless, dutiful, but entirely too serious and incapable of leading men who arnt like him.

 

Yet his victory record proves the latter of your sentence wrong.

[Lagbenektelse]

Pardon,

the Lion was cognizant of the motivation for most of his brothers very early. Caliban was a distraction for a capable and aware primarch

[Captain Idaho]

From Captain Idaho

"You combine that with an insular, brooding personality where he distrusts EVERYONE and be paranoid, you will look to find reasons for potential treachary, hence why he evaluates Guilliman as a power hungry traitor little better than Horus because he has used what he knows to draw the conclusion. "

 

Sorry to say to you Ultramarine fans I know this point is a little hard to swallow but...Guilliman knows what he's doing is treason, he says it right in the text. He is a traitor little better than Horus. That being said I think Guiliman is totally right in his actions from a larger human and moral scale, however quoted text is quoted text, he IS a traitor(at least at this point in time which is currently +2 years after Istvaan).

 

People take everything they read so literally! Guilliman mentioned his plan being treasonous, but that doesn't mean it was literally treacherous! It was a reference to the concept of considering another Imperium being set up went against their philosphy, their beliefs and purposes of the Greatcrusade.

 

Guilliman wanted to help the Imperium and couldn't. He knew the Imperial forces couldn't mobilise like Horus' forces could and he knew without his Legion and abilities to oppose Horus, and knew the Lion at the very least of his brothers couldn't travel to Terra to oppose Horus either. He knew things looked bleak for the Imperium and would likely fall.

 

What else could he do but plan for the aftermath?

 

:P

[Legatus]

Sorry to say to you Ultramarine fans I know this point is a little hard to swallow but...Guilliman knows what he's doing is treason, he says it right in the text. He is a traitor little better than Horus. That being said I think Guiliman is totally right in his actions from a larger human and moral scale, however quoted text is quoted text, he IS a traitor(at least at this point in time which is currently +2 years after Istvaan).

People take everything they read so literally! Guilliman mentioned his plan being treasonous, but that doesn't mean it was literally treacherous! It was a reference to the concept of considering another Imperium being set up went against their philosphy, their beliefs and purposes of the Greatcrusade.

Yeah, that story was simply being all melodramatic. Imagine a commander whose ship is hit and suffering a hull breach, having to make the difficult decision to seal off that section of the ship when not all crew members have yet made it to the safe sections, condemning them to a painful void death. He would be "betraying" those crew members, to save the rest of the ship, and he would probably feel a sense of guilt for having to do so. But he would not be considered a "traitor". That is how Guilliman himself ponders about how he is "betraying" the people of the Imperium he cannot save or those he has to oppose to establish order.

 

That story makes Guilliman look more foolish rather than traitorous.

[Captain Idaho]

Nice explanation, better than mine.

 

Foolish? Interesting interpretation, could you elaborate please?

 

I thought he was doing what he was doing because he had no other option, what have I missed?

[Legatus]

Foolish? Interesting interpretation, could you elaborate please?

 

I thought he was doing what he was doing because he had no other option, what have I missed?

While Guilliman had been making plans for the next Imperium, the other loyal Legions had been fighting against the traitors. And we already know that the Heresy will ultimately end with the Emperor being mortally wounded. Later stories mention that there had been some sort of restricting warp storm that prevented the Ultramarines from doing anything at all, but 'Rules of Engagement' made no mention of that, instead describing how his own Marines were wondering why he was not actively leading them. And if he had no opportunity to even help, then surely he would not feel like a "traitor" to those who he couldn't help? It made one wonder why Guilliman was not out there, like the Dark Angels, fighting against traitor forces. And that probably the Emperor would still be alive if the Ultramarines had thrown their weight in from the start, and not waited until Terra was under attack. But the course of action he apparently chose was to make plans so that a Heresy would not happen again. That story gave an impression of a man sitting down in a burning building who is making plans for better fire safety in the future instead of putting out the ongiong fire.

[Gree]

Foolish? Interesting interpretation, could you elaborate please?

 

I thought he was doing what he was doing because he had no other option, what have I missed?

While Guilliman had been making plans for the next Imperium, the other loyal Legions had been fighting against the traitors. And we already know that the Heresy will ultimately end with the Emperor being mortally wounded. Later stories mention that there had been some sort of restricting warp storm that prevented the Ultramarines from doing anything at all, but 'Rules of Engagement' made no mention of that, instead describing how his own Marines were wondering why he was not actively leading them. And if he had no opportunity to even help, then surely he would not feel like a "traitor" to those who he couldn't help?

 

Sometimes folks aren't logical. Especially when it comes to personal guilt or self-consciousness. Indeed. I would pay handsomely for my emotions to work as my intellect thinks they should. They don't/won't.

 

What about folks who feel guilty over shopping one of their relatives to the police, even though they know it was the only sensible thing they could do?

 

One can feel like a traitor to one's family, even if you know you were doing the right thing/had no choice.

 

You cannot dictate how a character would feel about a situation based only upon what you'd think of the situation, as not everyone thinks the same way as you. This goes doubly for chemically/genetically altered children brought up to be killers, with scant regard given to their emotional development other than brotherhood and unity.

 

In fact the Horus Heresy series provides ample precedent for Primarchs not acting rationally and making rather childish decisions based on their emotions.

 

And that probably the Emperor would still be alive if the Ultramarines had thrown their weight in from the start, and not waited until Terra was under attack.

 

Well, as Know no Fear reveals, Guilliman was not exactly in a position to throw the Ultramarines as a speedbump. The Ultramarines had taken a heavy beating and lost almost their entire fleet. Sure maybe he could have thrown them in, but he might have risked the destruction of his Legion for nothing.

[Captain Idaho]

And that probably the Emperor would still be alive if the Ultramarines had thrown their weight in from the start, and not waited until Terra was under attack.

 

Well, as Know no Fear reveals, Guilliman was not exactly in a position to throw the Ultramarines as a speedbump. The Ultramarines had taken a heavy beating and lost almost their entire fleet. Sure maybe he could have thrown them in, but he might have risked the destruction of his Legion for nothing.

 

Agreed 100%.

 

He's a master strategist and Horus knew it. Horus took Guilliman out of the game as soon as he could so the Ultramarines couldn't throw their weight in.

[Legatus]

None of that is explained in 'Rules of Engagement', sadly.

[Gree]

None of that is explained in 'Rules of Engagement', sadly.

 

Context is important. I was quite pleased to find out my Warp Storm theory was vindicated when KNF came out. I suspect Rules of Engagement was thrown in as is to provide a bit of contreversy before Know No Fear came out.

[Legatus]

Also, to explain just how ridiculous the Codex Astartes really is, and so that McNeill could have Guilliman himself vindicate Uriel Ventris.

[Captain Idaho]

None of that is explained in 'Rules of Engagement', sadly.

 

Why does it have to be? Good authors shoudln't need to lay everything out on a plate in black and white in every story.

 

It was a short story, anyone who bought it wouldn't understand a thing of what's going on without having read the series previously, and that goes for ALL the stories in the book.

 

Also, to explain just how ridiculous the Codex Astartes really is, and so that McNeill could have Guilliman himself vindicate Uriel Ventris.

 

Well, no comment :wacko:

[Gree]

Also, to explain just how ridiculous the Codex Astartes really is, and so that McNeill could have Guilliman himself vindicate Uriel Ventris.

 

Yes, if one wants to argue the validity of the Codex Astartes and strict adherance to it, then Rules of Engagement makes that quite hard with Guilliman's words. I've been involved in quite a number of debates on other forums concerning the Codex, and that one makes it rather hard to form a valid argument in defense of it without just ignoring all of his said works.

[Droma]

People take everything they read so literally! Guilliman mentioned his plan being treasonous, but that doesn't mean it was literally treacherous! It was a reference to the concept of considering another Imperium being set up went against their philosphy, their beliefs and purposes of the Greatcrusade.

 

Guilliman wanted to help the Imperium and couldn't. He knew the Imperial forces couldn't mobilise like Horus' forces could and he knew without his Legion and abilities to oppose Horus, and knew the Lion at the very least of his brothers couldn't travel to Terra to oppose Horus either. He knew things looked bleak for the Imperium and would likely fall.

 

What else could he do but plan for the aftermath?

 

That's why I put in the part about it being hard to swallow :D

 

I know and agree with your point of view. Guiliman is fighting for the greater good, he is fighting for the future. The Lion is fighting so the Emperor can continue shaping that future or should he fail to prevent ANYONE else from taking the throne of father. Guiliman has already written the Emperor off at this stage. Once again quoted text and all that. Based on the current laws of the Imperium and the oath's of fealty sworn by all the Primarchs to the Emperor, Guilimans thoughts and actions are technically treasonous. The Lion I am fairly certain sees exactly the motives behind the actions of Guiliman, that's why he calls him (paraphrasing) 'a misguided fool at best'. The Lion understands and simply doesn't agree. The Lion is utterly loyal to the Emperor while Guiliman is loyal to the Imperium/humanity. That difference I think is what is driving all the differences between them at this point in time.

 

Yeah, that story was simply being all melodramatic. Imagine a commander whose ship is hit and suffering a hull breach, having to make the difficult decision to seal off that section of the ship when not all crew members have yet made it to the safe sections, condemning them to a painful void death. He would be "betraying" those crew members, to save the rest of the ship, and he would probably feel a sense of guilt for having to do so. But he would not be considered a "traitor". That is how Guilliman himself ponders about how he is "betraying" the people of the Imperium he cannot save or those he has to oppose to establish order.

 

You're so far off in the scale of your analogy it's kind of comical. The situation is much closer to the first mate making the decision before even hearing from the captain of the ship and even that doesn't come close to accurately describing it. Bottom line, and Guiliman knows it(quoted text and all), is that planning for the war that will be after the current one instead of fighting the current one IS treasonous. It'd be one thing if he heard from the Emperor and the Emperor agreed with the plans but that isn't the case here.

 

Once again, I don't think Guiliman is wrong in his decision but I can totally see why the Lion doesn't trust him because of it.