warsmith Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hey all, Just came into possession of around 20 Grey Knight Terminators and Draigo and am wanting to turn them into something that is at least semi competitve. Problem is that I dont know what constitutes competetivewith the GK codex curently. The standard points levels which I play are 1500, 1750 and 1850. So I guess what I'm asking is what is the 'core' I should be taking to make it competetive and what should I be avoiding? Regards Dan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Problem is that I dont know what constitutes competetive with the GK codex curently. hmm being competative with GK, heres how its done: step 1: buy the dex /sarcasm seriously though, GK dont struggle with being competative, at the top level youd need to tweek your upgrades and be more selective, but for regular games you could pick units blindfolded and have a decent army tbh. Nurglez is really the man to speak to regarding draigowing, hes got a 35+ page thread on this forum somewhere. it really must have draigo, id say a ten man unit to accompany him and another smaller 5 man unit, all kitted for wound allocation (until 6th ed.. hehe), ith either psyfleme or NDKs in support. if you get spare points a libby wth sanctuary would be a useful addition. errggh, now i feel dirty, must go bathe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Psycannons. :o As many as you can get! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Psycannons. :o As many as you can get! you can master craft them too for the bargain basement price of 5 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Disclaimer: I do not play Grey Knights, and I do not play competitively. I am simply making this post as an interested player and as one who may get a Grey Knight 'Draigowing' army in the future. Take with salt. ith either psyfleme or NDKs in support. Psycannons. :o As many as you can get! It seems that these two pieces of advice are contradictory. Paladins are expensive enough that even at high points levels, you will not have maxed out the potential number of Paladin-mounted psycannons that are possible in a single Force Org. Chart. Therefore, any points spent on Dreadnoughts or Dreadknights are ones that could otherwise be spent on more Paladins (with more Psycannons). Although 'Noughts and 'Knights each bring additional capabilities that the Paladins themselves do not have, they also bring their own set of weaknesses. The Dreadnoughts in particular are more vulnerable to S7 weapons and those with an AP of 3 or worse matched with a high strength, of which there are plenty of. Furthermore, the Dreadnoughts are so well known as being powerful that they are clear priority targets. Does Dreadnought/Dreadknight support make the army so much more effective that it offsets the inherent weakness of presenting multiple target types to your opponent? (it may be derailing the thread a bit, but seeing as the point of the thread is about making a competitive Grey Knight army...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 its not contradictory, the heavy support elements allow for you to target single vehicles, especially with S8 autocannon shots. if you rely on your expensive and small number of paladin units to tackle everything youll not get far.. why have ten pallies shoot at a single razorback when a 135 dread can do it with a good chance of removing it from the board. you have to balance the pallies with HS choices in order to be as strong as possible but too echo GML put as many psycannons on the pallies as possible, as they are great weapons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Tip 1: Paladins must (according to me) always have MC-Psycannons, everything except that is voluntary (and in comparisons not that important). Tip 2: Paladins work great with Stormravens. You can move flat out with the raven and still disembark the paladins without caring about the dangerous terrain. And they will still be able to shoot at full capacity. If you attach an IC with Psycannon ore Warp Rift you can be out of range of your opponent’s weapons and then turbo boost in and hit one target with your Raven, one with the IC one with the Paladins and maybe even one with an attached dread. The next turn the raven can fire all its weapons and even call in more Paladins with a precision deep strike if it has a homer. Tip 3: Do not be afraid to split Draigo of from a paladin squad. He can kill so much more that you would thing just by himself. He will walk throe Assault marines and Grey Hunters like they were paper. It is so funny when people try to get him alone and tar pit him :). Tip 4: Complement Paladins with speed rather than range… Tip 5: Draigo wing and paladins in general are good in Kill point missions, but you may end up with too few troops in Objective missions. Try to keep the objectives close and remember two things. 1, you only need one more Objective than your opponent, and he will most likely want to stay at a nice 27” distance from your Psycannons. 2, Dead troops do not hold objectives. Here are some lists to play around with: HQ: Draigo: 275p Troops: 5x Paladins: Hammer/MC-Psycannon, Halberd/MC-Psycannon, Halberd, Hammer, Sword. 325p 10x Paladins: Hammer/MC-Psycannon, Halberd/MC-Psycannon, Sward/ MC-Psycannon, MC-Halberd/Psycannon, Halberd, Halberd, Hammer, MC-Hammer, Sword, Sword, Psy-bolts. 680p Fast: Stormraven: TLLC, TLMM, Homer. 220p Sum: 1500p ----------------------------------------------- HQ: Draigo: 275p Troops: 5x Paladins: Hammer/MC-Psycannon, Halberd/MC-Psycannon, Halberd, Hammer, Sword. 325p 5x Paladins: Hammer/MC-Psycannon, Halberd/MC-Psycannon, Halberd, Hammer, Sword. 325p Fast: Stormraven: TLLC, TLMM. 205p Stormraven: TLLC, TLMM. 205p 10x Interceptors: Hammer, 2x Psycannon. 290p Heavy: Dreadnought: MM, Auto Cannon, Psy-bolts. 125p Sum: 1750p ------------------------ HQ: Draigo: 275p Inquisitor: Psycannon, Terminator Amour. 80 Henchmen: 6x Psykers, 3x Storm bolter Acolytes, 3x Plasma Acolytes, Chimera w/ Doserblades. 185p Troops: 5x Paladins: Hammer/MC-Psycannon, Halberd/MC-Psycannon, Halberd, Hammer, Sword. 325p 5x Paladins: Hammer/MC-Psycannon, Halberd/MC-Psycannon, Halberd, Hammer, Sword. 325p Fast: Stormraven: TLLC, TLMM. 205p Stormraven: TLLC, TLMM. 205p Heavy: Dreadnought: MM, Auto Cannon, Psy-bolts. 125p Dreadnought: MM, Auto Cannon, Psy-bolts. 125p Sum: 1848p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hey all, Just came into possession of around 20 Grey Knight Terminators and Draigo and am wanting to turn them into something that is at least semi competitve. Problem is that I dont know what constitutes competetivewith the GK codex curently. The standard points levels which I play are 1500, 1750 and 1850. So I guess what I'm asking is what is the 'core' I should be taking to make it competetive and what should I be avoiding? Regards Dan I have played quite a few games with Draigowing, And a core of Draigo, 15 pallies and 2 psyrifle dreads is just doable at 1500 points. For me, a core of Draigo and 15 paladins is needed, and quite often the least I will take (unless I am trying out solodins). Most competitive GK armies will go for psyrifle dread's, as they are very cost effective for what they do. I use DK's instead, as I don't like how cost effective the psyrifle dread is, and prefer to spam wounds rather then giving a target for the anti tank weapons. I also like the heavy incinerator on the DK, as it lets me threaten units that have really good cover saves (math hammer 4 str 8 shots vs a str 6 template that ignores cover :) ). Psycannon's are important, and let paladins threaten any unit at range (30 inch threat range with a normal move). A good mix of mostly halberds + some swords and hammers is a good choice, and you can master craft a few of them to abuse wound allocation, which will help them survive. I have no experience of using brotherhood banners or apothecaries though. An inquisitor or libby can be a good choice, to add some servo skulls or as a great force multiplier (the libby is awesome vs certain armies, shrouding, sanctuary + might of titans are great). I took my draigowing to the Throne of skulls uk event twice so far, and have received comments on the fact I have no dreads, which makes me happy :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 its not contradictory, the heavy support elements allow for you to target single vehicles, especially with S8 autocannon shots.if you rely on your expensive and small number of paladin units to tackle everything youll not get far.. why have ten pallies shoot at a single razorback when a 135 dread can do it with a good chance of removing it from the board. you have to balance the pallies with HS choices in order to be as strong as possible but too echo GML put as many psycannons on the pallies as possible, as they are great weapons all true + what some people may forget draigo is still a GM . he can make NDK scoring [or scouting . scouting NDKs are able to charge stuff turn one if you steal initiative] . also the extra paladins are not worth a unit that draws away fire from them or is an unstunlockable transport opener/tank stuner NDKs and/or Rifleman in Draigowing builds are force multiplyers . extra paladins are just a win more option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Competitive Draigowing? Coteaz is going to be your best friend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 and how does he do that build with 20 terminators draigo , no henchman , no razors , no GK in power armor . ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 By letting you take 2-6 65 point Razorbacks! Pew Pew. With the added benefit of; The ability for the Razors to carry Meltaguns. The ability to hide your Paladin behind the Razors. Apart from the 2 guys with the Psycannons in each Squad. Who Pew Pew away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 read OP first post . he was given a draigo and 20 paladins he asked how to make a working army out of that . he is not asking how to buy models he didnt get /doesnt own . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Sorry Jeske, thread had moved on. I was directly repsonding to Competitive Draigowing? Coteaz is going to be your best friend. and how does he do that *Obviously* if you're not taking any henchmen, Coteaz does nothing. So if you're advocating Coteaz, you're got to be assuming you're going ot be using *some* henchmen. And you can *easily* run Paladin with/without Draigo and some minimal Warrior Squads in Razors. build with 20 terminators draigo , no henchman , no razors , no GK in power armor . ? Well, for one. Drop the GKT. They aren't competitive. If you *really* Want Driago, off the top of my head do something like; HQ: Draigo (275) HQ: Coteaz (100) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback, Psybolt (92) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback, Psybolt (92) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback, Psybolt (92) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback, Psybolt (92) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback, Psybolt (92) Troop: Paladin x10, Psycannon x4 (630) Heavy: Dreadnough, TL Auto, TL Auto, Psybolt (135) Heavy: Dreadnough, TL Auto, TL Auto, Psybolt (135) Heavy: Dreadnough, TL Auto, TL Auto, Psybolt (135) Total: 1,770 Tonnes of points left to play with. But you get the gist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 and how does he do that build with 20 terminators draigo , no henchman , no razors , no GK in power armor . ?I thought he wanted ideas for a Competitive Draigowing. :unsure: By definition that requires a bit of shopping rather than trying to shoehorn a bits box into a list and calling it competitive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Competitive Draigowing? Coteaz is going to be your best friend. This +1 No amtter what people tell you 15 paladins draigo and a lib as a core of the army isn't really competitive. Why because 5 of your paladins don't ahve draigo protection and are actually easily killed, wound allo barely helps here as they will just use a few instant death weapons untill ther eis 3 guys left then it pretty easy to cut them down. The lib is expensive and doesn't solve you biggest problem, negative leadership effect. If a guard player kills your dread which isn't terribly ahrd and uses a psycher battle squad to reduce your leadership of your pallies to two and then makes them run he will escort them off the board. it is a veyr common unit and you will lose that game, blood angels fear of darkness is very similar. You really want stubborn, coteaz also gives sanctuary amazing ddepstrike defence with paaldins and a great chance to steal the initiative and better makes it near impossible for the enemy to do so All the lib really bring is shrouding for aroudn 75 pts more Coteaz also allows for easy acces to MSu which is important because that paladin unit can only shoot 1 target per turn, if the enemy has 12 chassis you will struggle to kill them. Simply by adding a couple of dreads and some acolytes and psybacks or psycannon backs you gain the ability to score easily and destory enemy light vehicles well. The acolyte squads dont have to be 3 acolytes either. 6 with storm bolters is great, maybe with 3 meltas or palsmas as well. you can add deathcults etc. Rules of competitve Draigowing to take on board. Dreads over Dread knights An inquisitor of some kind over any second HQ No more than 10 pallies as you can protect anymore. By support units that can help score and target multiple transports. Paladins are great against inexperienced players who just can't deal with 10 pallies and draigo. Play on soem top tables and your army needs to be well constructed as there are blocking, combat shooting, tank shocking etc tricks that can make your paladins achieve quite little for their cost, they need propper support. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Rules of competitve Draigowing to take on board. Dreads over Dread knights An inquisitor of some kind over any second HQ No more than 10 pallies as you can protect anymore. By support units that can help score and target multiple transports. and yet, nurglez doesnt obey any of these tenets and has what i would consider a competative list (his results sopeak for themselves).. so either hes just 'lucky' or theres the possiblity your wrong/misinformed. the last point is valid as i mentioned before, but dreadknights can do the job too Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Well… Different play stiles require different units. As I said earlier, I think Draigo wing benefits more from speed than long-range shooting. Which may be strange coming from me as I tend to be more focused on shooting than movement :huh: A DK with teleporter has a farther movement than Paladins ore Dreads, So I would take them instead of dreads If I footslogged, but DK’s can’t fit in Ravens… “Competitive Draigowing? Coteaz is going to be your best friend.”… Coteaz is every ones beat friend :), but he doesn’t always fit the bill ore theme. And themed armies can be just as competitive as the rest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 One could argue that an inquisitor in a GK army is themed. Seems like most GK stories feature an Inquisitor of some sort at least pulling some strings or something. I will have an inquisitor in my army eventually for that reason alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Absolutely. I’m just saying that you do not have to take your theme of “whatever” and cram in Coteaz and a spam of three Acolytes in a Razorback to make it competitive. And of course Coteaz spam can be a theme as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Rules of competitve Draigowing to take on board. Dreads over Dread knights An inquisitor of some kind over any second HQ No more than 10 pallies as you can protect anymore. By support units that can help score and target multiple transports. and yet, nurglez doesnt obey any of these tenets and has what i would consider a competative list (his results sopeak for themselves).. so either hes just 'lucky' or theres the possiblity your wrong/misinformed. the last point is valid as i mentioned before, but dreadknights can do the job too Yet worldwide Paladin Tournament Results suggest otherwise. Yes Nurglez does well with dread knights however he did try a few dreads and find they were very good. The problem is dreadknights don't fill holes in the paladin based army they sure up their strengths. Sure they get some movement at a huge cost but they dont give the nti mech ranged fire support and psychci protection that is more important. Granted it's only my opinion, however I ahve great success with my paladins, granted I don't even Draigo but I do use coteaz and dreads. I took out The austrlain Championship, have entered a tounrament and finished lower than 3rd in battle and have lost a grand total of 2 games with the list both to good players with with excellent lists and very good dice. Now anyone could jsut say that and I probably sound like a tool writing that but I'm trying to say I have loads of experience with them and I can say I've only once felt a dread knight would have been significantly helpful for its cost in all my games. I'm sure people run Draigowing with dreads and do well but from my opinion which is all this and from tournament results from around the world that I ahve followed dreadknights don't make top tables dread consistantly do inculding in paladin lists even though I know nurgle, the champ he is does prett damn well. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 dont get me wrong im not saying your flat wrong, im merely trying to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat. this whole one list to rule them all is a fallacy and only serves to remove flavour from the hobby. if every GK player that attended tournies (and it alot at the moment) played identical lists then what advantage have you gained.. in my book people like nurgles have the edge over them because they arent afraid to mix it up yes all those points you raised are accurate, but not the only 'rules' as i tried to point out, recycling old meta does a disservice to new players IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Crynn, I recall you saying in a poste once that you had great success in a tournament with your paladin army. In that same tournament you saw other people playing armies identical to yours. Do you remember if they had any luck in the tournament, and if they placed in the same ballpark as you? I do not mean to get of topic her, I would just rely like to know, And I think it may have some relevance to the original poste… Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3057904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsmith Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hello all, Thanks for the reposnes so far - its been very interested reading the differing opinions on the topic. I also note that no one has suggested apothecary upgrades - I assume then that they are generally useless? it really must have draigo, id say a ten man unit to accompany him and another smaller 5 man unit, all kitted for wound allocation (until 6th ed.. hehe), ith either psyfleme or NDKs in support.if you get spare points a libby wth sanctuary would be a useful addition. I've not even bothered trying to keep track of the 6th ed rumours - is would allocation set to dissapear? Psycannons. :) As many as you can get! I thought this would be the case.....and would I be correct in thinking that the only thing better than psycannons is more psycannons and the only thing better than more psycannons is psybolts? you can master craft them too for the bargain basement price of 5 points Seems far too cheap doesn't it! Though how will 6th ed affect mastercrafting, or will it effect it at all? I have played quite a few games with Draigowing, And a core of Draigo, 15 pallies and 2 psyrifle dreads is just doable at 1500 points. For me, a core of Draigo and 15 paladins is needed, and quite often the least I will take (unless I am trying out solodins). Most competitive GK armies will go for psyrifle dread's, as they are very cost effective for what they do. I use DK's instead, as I don't like how cost effective the psyrifle dread is, and prefer to spam wounds rather then giving a target for the anti tank weapons. I'm beginning to read through your thread...slowly. At the moment it looks as though its going to be a very useful tool. Its also nice to see that you seem to have gone against convention and been able to make it work! read OP first post . he was given a draigo and 20 paladins he asked how to make a working army out of that . he is not asking how to buy models he didnt get /doesnt own . I've no problems in getting more - as long as the core of th force can be built with what I own. I know that 20 pallies, draigo and a libby can clock in at 1800 - 1850 with equipment....though I'm not to sure how competetive it would be. One poster said about using psyfle dreads to target opposing transports - is there anything else that might fill in that void? If at all possible I'd like to avoid vehicles as I would rather staurate wonds than have models with armour value which can be targetted with saturated firepower. Whats a good option for a second HQ? Whats an optimal loadout for a Librarian in a Draigowing force? Also, as an idea how does a 'Draigo/Crowe-wing' list work? Is it viable? Regards Dan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3058247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I also note that no one has suggested apothecary upgrades - I assume then that they are generally useless? Yup. Costs too much to give Pallies extra durability versus stuff that doesn't worry them anyway. and would I be correct in thinking that the only thing better than psycannons is more psycannons Yup. And Halberds. ;) and the only thing better than more psycannons is psybolts? Only on Razors and Dreads. Personally, I like them on 10 man Strie Squads, but I rarely run 10 man Strike Squds as I like getting extra Justicars. ;) One poster said about using psyfle dreads to target opposing transports - is there anything else that might fill in that void? More Psycannons. ;) And a Vindicare. Or Warriors with Meltaguns in Razors. With Psybolts. ;) Whats a good option for a second HQ? Coteaz. >;) Or an OM Inquisitor in TDA with a NDH and a Psycannon. More Psycannons! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252075-what-consttitues-a-competetive-draigowing/#findComment-3058286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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