scout before steal?

[greatcrusade08]

hi all.

i was reading some other (read not as good) forums, and i came acros a rules argument about which comes first:

scout moves or steal initiative?

 

now ive always played it as scout moves comes first, if the enemy steals thats the price you pay (ive always thought steal initiative was lame anyway but i digress.)

however reading through thier posts was a bit like listening to children squabble, those dudes could really use a grey mage, however it has left me a little unsure if was right or not.

it does seem the two rules very poorly worded when applied together...

 

so i thought id put it to the real rules gurus.. which comes first?

[Morollan]

Seems pretty clear to me. Although the timings are similar, Scout moves occur during deployment "before the first player begins his first turn". After deployment is finished but before the first turn begins, the opponent gets to try to steal initiative. If you look at the chart on page 86, scout moves happen in step 4 and stealing occurs at the start of step 5.

[Legatus]

I would say the mention of 'Scout moves' in the 'Deploy Forces' section on page 92 is much more telling than the individual description of the 'Scouts' USR on page 76.

"Infiltrators and Scouts

In all three types of deployment, the sequence is the same. First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their 'infiltrate' special rule). Then they deploy their infiltrators (as described on page 75), and finally they move units with the 'scouts' special rule (see page 76)"

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 92)

To me that sounds very much like the movement of the 'scout' units is considered one of the usual steps of army deployment.

 

Two paragraphs after that description we have the box about seizing the initiative:

"Seize the Initiative!

In war, no plan survives contact with the enemy. In any standard mission, just before the player that should go first begins his turn, the opponent can decide to try to steal the initiative, catching the enemy flat-footed. If he decides to do so, he rolls a dice. On a result of 6, he will go first instead, immediately beginning his first turn (and no, the opponent cannot try to seize the initiative back again!)."

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 92)

I would say that is pretty clear. Seizing initiative happens "just before the player that should go first begins his turn", and if successful, the player who seized the initiative is "immediately beginning his first turn". But scout moves are not part of anyone's turn, they happen as part of the deployment phase, as all of the three deployment boxes will confirm:

 

"PITCHED BATTLE

 

(...) His opponent then deploys in the opposite half.

 

Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves.

 

Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 92)

"SPEARHEAD

 

(...) His opponent then deploys in the diagonally opposite quarter.

 

Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves.

 

Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 93)

"DAWN OF WAR

 

(...) Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table. Lastly, players make any scout moves.

 

Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn. (...)"

(5th Edition Rulebook, p. 93)

So this is an iron clad issue. There is not even any ambiguity. Scout moves are not part of any player's first game turn, and happen as part of the deployment, as described here in four separate quotes. Seizing of initiative happens just before the starting player begins his first turn, and if the initiative is seized, the other player immediately begins his turn. Any kind of depoyment has been completed at that point, and the player's are about to start the first actual game turn.

 

Edit: Spelling.

[greatcrusade08]

Awesome clarification, thanks Legs