Gene-seed question

[Khine]

Is it possible to found a chapter with more than one original Legion gene-seed? based on some

 

For example.

The high lords want a chapter that uses guerilla tactics but at the same time wants them to leave the enemy terrified and jumping at shadows ( yes.. i do know who that sounds like )

High lords decide to found the chapter with Raven Guard Gene seed ( early M33 ish ) but there is not enough to build the chapter fast enough, so they augment the founding with white scars gene seed.

 

Or would they just found the chapter using White scars gene seed but have the founding members be Raven guard?

 

 

Another example

A new chapter is needed to fill a specific role in the protection of a stretch of space due to heavy ork incursion. There are a number of potential legion gene seed that would be suited to the task.

However, the High lords cannot agree between the use of Imperial fists or Ultramarine. In the end they agree the chapter would benefit from both legions combined knowledge/genetics.

[SnakeoilSage]

Short answer: No.

 

Chapters are only founded using gene-seed from a specific primarch-progenitor.

 

On rare occasions, a successor Chapter has been given the honor of being used as a template for a new Chapter, but their lineage is not mixed. Any Chapter would be infuriated to see their Primarch's legacy diluted like that.

 

Certain Foundings did attempt to "clean up" gene-deficiencies present in gene-seed: eradicating the Raven Guard's pale skin or the Imperial Fist's missing glands, for example. But any attempt to manipulate the Emperor's work seems doomed to failure and inexplicable bad luck. Clearly the Emperor has some plan for the diverse gene-seed and doesn't want them to be fiddled with beyond the unique traits passed down from the Primarchs themselves.

 

That being said, some Chapters use the gene-seed of multiple Chapters from the same primarch to try and clean up unstable mutations. Because progenoid glands produce germ-cell clones of the organs they detect in the Space Marine's body, new Chapters might have healthy organs from multiple Chapters implanted into a single body. So if, say, an Ultramarines Chapter successor's Betcher's Gland starts to fail, they might receive replacement Betcher's Glands from the Ultramarines so that the defective gland is "bred out" and no longer appears.

[luckymutt]

I want to say that somewhere in all the lexicanum articles I've read there is at least one chapter that has a combi gene makeup but it isn't GW sanctioned so take it for what it is worth.

Personnally, I could very well see the manipulation of using one sources genes and training from another perspective to achieve a desired Astartes "niche". Picture Ultramarines trained by a group of Space Wolves. You'd end up with some very in your face fighters but with the strong cohesion of the Ultras. I know this is an extreme example but it was the first to pop to mind.

 

Thinking about it, I want to say that some of the 21st founding were manipulated. So definitely a bad idea...

[Dosjetka]

I disagree because I do not believe that a Chapter's behaviour comes in great part from one's gene-lineage. Sure, there is a part of an Astartes' behaviour and characteristics which will be influenced by the gene-seed he's recieved, but I do not believe that in the case of the Ultramarine gene-seed you'll have a Chapter who is like the Ultramarines purely because you've got the same gene-seed. It's really the training cadre that influences the Chapter as it is born, that "shapes the clay". If you give a Chapter UM gene-seed and a SW training cadre, there's a very god chance that you have a pseudo SW Chapter without the long fangs, leathery skin, claws and alcohol resistance :)

 

Also, to be honest (I know it was an example), but why would Space Wolves (who are seen as deviants by many and who have come to blows with the Ecclesiarchy) be asked to train a Chapter? What do they have more than another Chapter? They're hunters and skilled fighters, but you've got that with both the White Scars and the Raven Guard who are both very skilled in those areas of warfare, but who boast less about/we hear less of.

 

And don't forget that we are talking about Space Marines here, not human soldiers. If the Chapter thinks that it needs to fight in a certain way, then the Chapter will adapt itself to the circumstances as it sees fit. Not many people are going to go around, telling Space Marines what to do...

 

As for the gene-seed tampering/mixing, it's been discussed many times and, IIRC, the conclusion was always the same: don't mess around with the gene-seed because you get Astartes who become degenerate monsters, like during the 21st Founding. Sure, it's cool, so if you like it go ahead because it is your Chapter, but it won't be seen very favourably by many fluff nuts in these waters, unless it's well pulled-off.

 

Anyway, sorry for what may seem as a rant, it just all came straight from my head with little thought (I'm pressed for time).

 

I hope it helps in some way or another :D

 

Ludovic

[Khine]

i think my explanation on the gene seed might have been taken a different way than what i had intended. I didn't mean tampering or diluting another chapters gene seed.

I was more leaning towards the argument of .... There is only enough of Gene seed A to create 45% of a new chapter so Gene seed B is used instead of Gene seed A for the other 55%. Then just told they were all from Gene seed A, aslong as Geneseed A didn't have any outwardly different signs.

 

However, i do see Snake and Ludovic reasoning against the 'diluting' of a gene pool.

[Dosjetka]

Hm... Unless the reserves were pillaged or destroyed, I'd find that somewhat strange. But then again maybe during the process, a mutation formed and so the growing of that strain of gene-seed would have been stopped? But then the logical thing (in the yes of the AdMech) would be to destroy the whole batch and use a new one... Meh. I don't know. Maybe you could make that work?

 

Ludovic

[Malthe]

Ludovic is smart and wise :)

Nuture always beats nature when it comes to the Adeptus Astartes!

 

I'm not sure how the AdMech would ever be in a situation where they'd lack the gene-seed reserves to make a whole chapter.

A founding is a huge event, so surely they'd prepare acordingly, they are the AdMech after all.

But if you can come up with a sensible reason go ahead :huh:

 

If I recall corretly, there is a chapter of the Unforgiven which are 'rumoured' to have both Dark Angel and Ultramarine gene-seed.

They are the same chapter that was evidently requested to be founded by the DA Inner Circle, but their name escapes me...

 

More importantly, what do you wish to gain from this mixing of gene-seed?

What effect are you going for, besides 'it's unique and a little weird'?

Think about it ;)

 

Cheers!

[Dosjetka]

Ludovic is smart and wise ;)

Nuture always beats nature when it comes to the Adeptus Astartes!

Why thank you :huh: And I completely agree (for the second point made :P)!

 

I'm not sure how the AdMech would ever be in a situation where they'd lack the gene-seed reserves to make a whole chapter.

A founding is a huge event, so surely they'd prepare acordingly, they are the AdMech after all.

But if you can come up with a sensible reason go ahead :)

I remember reading somewhere (but I can't recall where) that a Founding took more than a century to prepare before the official Founding date.

 

And as Malthe pointed out, what do you want to achieve through mixing gene-seeds? For most things, you can find a more "realistic" (within the 40k universe) and simpler explanation ;)

 

Ludovic

[Khine]

Well what i wanted to achieve was a third founding salamanders chapter. The gene seed would be extremely rare at that point in time so soon after the istaavan massacre.

So what i wanted to do was use some of the salamanders gene seed to create the upper echelons of the chapter and have the rest as imperial fists gene seed. As time passed and the Salamanders stores of gene seeds grew, the imperial fists gene seed would slowly be phased out of the chapter.

 

Also don't think that the obsidian skin and red eyes of the gene seed would be a problem as it is more a product of living on nocturne rather than the gene seed itself. Remember the original legions were created from the primarchs raw crafted dna, not from the primarchs directly after they were found.

[Dosjetka]

But again, why 3rd Founding and not another Founding? Also, if the Salamanders, according to some rumours, did actually have two 2nd Founding successors, then why couldn't you have your Chapter be a "son" of one of the successors?

 

Also, don't forget that if you have a 3rd Founding Chapter, that's a lot of time between the Founding and the 41st millennium. Couldn't you maybe bump the number up to maybe 5th or 6th Founding, thus giving you more plausibility when using the Salamander gene-seed?

 

And lastly, if you wanted the Imperial Fist gene-seed to make them "siege masters", well I don't think that that's really necessary and you can acheive that through other means (maybe the people of the Chapter's new home world live in massive bastions spread across the continents and so besieging these fortresses is something that the people do regularly to dominate the rival clans or something? There's so many possibilities to explain things in much simpler ways!) :D

 

I've actually had an idea for your Chapter: maybe you could say that they are 8th Founding (which happened in early M33 according to the Liber Astartes Time Line, which gives you eight millennia of history to mess around with) and that they swore to reconquer the worlds taken by Abaddon during the 3rd Black Crusade? And the High Lords of Terra saw it quite fitting that the Chapter would be drawn from the Salamanders as they suffered terrible losses during the Horus Heresy and so the training cadre would instill vengeance against Chaos into the new recruits?

 

Take as much as you want from the idea, it's just something that could work <_<

 

Ludovic

[Khine]

But again, why 3rd Founding and not another Founding? Also, if the Salamanders, according to some rumours, did actually have two 2nd Founding successors, then why couldn't you have your Chapter be a "son" of one of the successors?

 

Also, don't forget that if you have a 3rd Founding Chapter, that's a lot of time between the Founding and the 41st millennium. Couldn't you maybe bump the number up to maybe 5th or 6th Founding, thus giving you more plausibility when using the Salamander gene-seed?

 

And lastly, if you wanted the Imperial Fist gene-seed to make them "siege masters", well I don't think that that's really necessary and you can acheive that through other means (maybe the people of the Chapter's new home world live in massive bastions spread across the continents and so besieging these fortresses is something that the people do regularly to dominate the rival clans or something? There's so many possibilities to explain things in much simpler ways!) ;)

 

I've actually had an idea for your Chapter: maybe you could say that they are 8th Founding (which happened in early M33 according to the Liber Astartes Time Line, which gives you eight millennia of history to mess around with) and that they swore to reconquer the worlds taken by Abaddon during the 3rd Black Crusade? And the High Lords of Terra saw it quite fitting that the Chapter would be drawn from the Salamanders as they suffered terrible losses during the Horus Heresy and so the training cadre would instill vengeance against Chaos into the new recruits?

 

Take as much as you want from the idea, it's just something that could work :)

 

Ludovic

 

unfortunately 8th Founding according to IA is roughly Mid m34 which gives me barely 500 years before the loss of the chapter world i wanted them on.

 

8th Founding:

Founding: ... 8th [circa mid-m.34]

The earliest extant record likely to pertain to the Mantis Warriors can be found in the Libris Gloriana - a seven-hundred and seventy-seven volume treatise on the state of Imperial power commissioned for the ascension of High Lord Gogol after the Nova Terra Interregnum in 093.M36. The massive accumulation of knowledge in the Libris Gloriana represents a rare resource, but one that has been repeatedly suppressed and censored, and many doubt its veracity in general. Further difficulties in the text are raised by the particularly obscure dialect of High Gothic in which the treatise is written, which had been popular at the Terran court of the time. It mentions in bombastic terms a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes "...warrior legion of the Mantis (or 'prophecy', the language is unclear)" of the 8th Founding (which would place its origins in the mid M34) of "...the line of the great Khan, by his sons the Marauders".

 

which was a moon that was present when this happens..

Tigrus is a Forge World which was overrun by Orks of the Warlord Arrgard the Defiler in M35

 

and still need enough time for them to get beaten down viciously in a space battle and also start to doubt the Codex Astartes.

 

I hadn't thought about using one of their successors. The black dragons would be outright negated due to mutation, possibly the Storm Giants though.

 

No, the imperial fist was more due to the loyalty/purity of the gene-seed and that it wasn't Ultramarines or Dark Angels.

 

I do like your idea for the reason for their creation and you actually struck at the core of why i choose Salamanders. When was the 3rd black crusade though?

[War Angel]

There's a reason the emperor didn't give imperial fists the ability to spit acid. He needed some on to defend the palace and not have them spitting all this distructive siliva on every thing.

[NightrawenII]

Hmm... Where to begin?!? :)

 

- Mixed gene-seed is well possible, it's not unknown practise during several Foundings and some Chapters bear the gene-seed from more than one donor.

- The Chapter, you are looking for, are Fire Claws, or Relictors if you want, who are said to have Dark Angels' and Ultramarines' gene-seed.

- I would like to know, who are these rumoured 2nd Founding successors, since Black Dragons are 21st Founding and Storm Giants were founded in M41.

 

@Khine

The 3rd Founding was thousand years after the 2nd Founding and the Admech, which is responsible for creation of new Chapters, is able to grow enough glands in period of 55 years from few samples.

[Ace Debonair]

unfortunately 8th Founding according to IA is roughly Mid m34 which gives me barely 500 years before the loss of the chapter world i wanted them on.

 

You could always invent another planet (as similar or as different as you like) and maybe another Ork Warboss and consign it to pretty much the same fate, but at a point in time that better suits your chapter. :)

[Khine]

Nightrawen, yeah you are right but wouldn't the majority of those newly created gene-seed be used to restore the stricken Salamanders to full strength first?

 

But that point becomes moot now since..

 

Ace, made a very very good point.. o.o thanks Ace, that actually opened up a whole lot of possibilities and for some reason never considered it.

[Dosjetka]

[...] Storm Giants were founded in M41.

I've never seen that anywhere. Where did you get that from?

 

Edit: Scrap that, I found it. There was some rumour that the Strom Giants were 2nd Founding, but I guess that got changed/I got mixed up with another Chapter :)

 

Edit of edit: It says in the Salamanders IA that they are rumoured to be Sallie successors, but makes no mention of them being 2nd Founding. Mea culpa.

 

Ludovic

[blackoption]

Also keep in mind that chapters can evolve over time. Perhaps your chapter has a significant event which causes it to reconsider its traditions and approaches to war.