wiplash Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 hey peeps my main opponent is a Grey Knight user, and has 1-2 units of paladins with the halberd things granting them I7 (i think maybe its 6) either way they will strike first in combat now obviously because of this and their 2 wounds and all sorts of nifty wargear most GK advice is to not face them in combat and expect to win but my feeling is that i want to craft a list that i can field against anyone, crafting your list to your opponent feels a little cheap, and in most cases that will involve using SW CC skills. After all that's pretty much the space wolf MO! so my question is is there anyway that i can either strike simultaneously or manage to strike first against the GK's? and i mean this with me launching the attack, not trying to lure him into attacking me i presumed that if i could pin him then that would give me some advantage but apparently pinning doesnt affect CC at all :/ If i can do this my plan would be to try out a squad of termies with wolf claws and logan for preferred enemy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I don't think there's any way you can counter I6 in combat. Sometimes you just have to accept that someone's better in a fight than you are. The key to winning that fight is to hurt them first so they're not as dangerous. Fact is, firepower is your friend here, whether you like it or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiplash Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 i think your probably right, may have to invest in storm shields instead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyrdWolf Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Fighting GK's toe to tow in CC doesn't work. I feel what alot of people don't get about space wolves is that while we like to brawl and get in a punch up we can do SO much more. We're wolves not bears, and as such we don't need brute strength when we have a cunning pack mentality. General rule of thumb, if we can't out shoot it, we can out fight it, if we can't out fight it we can out shoot it. Use this to your advantage, hit him with lots of firepower and then if you really want to get into a fight, rush in and finish him off with an assault unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 i think your probably right, may have to invest in storm shields instead Then you have to watch out for Vindicare Assassins who can destroy your Storm Shield before you get to use it. I know this because i've done it. Don't try and figure out how to kill them in combat. Just figure out how to kill them. You said yourself you want a single list that can take on all armies equally; that list will have to feature at least some firepower. Hope i've helped even a little. See you on the field cousin! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buliwyf Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Softening those Pallies up with some Krak and bolter fire should do the trick before charging with TWC or kitted out Wolf Guard. My best guess would be a set of Assault-y TDAWG's. Accepting that you're going last isn't necessarily the worst thing. It's not the first hit in the fight who wins, it's the last hit that determines the victor. That's just a theory though, I've never tried it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt01price Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hello brother!! I'll admit I haven't faced these guys on the table however I read a recent article which could help you. It's not Wolf specific but it does a good job of explaining the ins and outs of dealing with the typical GK list. Even if you don't like the idea of going all the way down the 'just shoot them off the table' road then this still gives some advice on what to fire at what and target priority etc http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/05/your-guid...ladins-off.html Hope it helps!! Matt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiplash Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/05/your-guid...ladins-off.html Hope it helps!! Matt cheers for that will read that :) i have faced them twice now and came out victorious both times, one 1500 point annihilation game i won by a whisker and the other a 2000 point take and hold which i won by 2 objectives :) i had njal and another rune priest who dished out plenty of psychic shooting attacks, but in the end JotWW proved most successful, other than that it was a case of fielding 2 squads of long fangs and 2 typhoon speeders to shoot at everything and sweeping in my mechanised infantry when the squads where small enough. sadly njal never lasted past turn 3 having said this those were the first times he had played with the army so i may have a harder job next time :P although they were my first games in nearly 2 years as well haha ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 plasma their face off and then when you have them down to where you can win the assault in their turn or two, assault their face off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Double plas Grey Hunters or plasma pistol packing wolf guard are your friends here. You also have jaws of the gay wolf if they don't hood it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godhead Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 If you run Ragnar plus an Ironpriest with cyberwolves and someone with saga of the wolfkin, that would let you go at int 6. Unfortunately psychotrope grenades may very well take all fun out of your assault. It is my feeling now that if they have a grenade satchel then just don't bother assaulting them. I have found that kiting with murderous hurricane and jaws works pretty decently to thin them out. Lascannons have a nice place in your list these days as long as you have more than one per volley. Each loss a squad of paladins suffer is really felt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Native Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Also it's good to remember that the Space Wolves fight best when they support each other and that we typically dominate the middle ground/board where (in my experience) a lot of games of 40K take place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Vindicators seem to do their job as well against Paladins, might be worth testing it out for yourself as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 It really depends on your list vs. That list. It is possible to beat paladins in the assault with Wolves (assuming some very certain things about your list, and sacrificing most of your army to do it if they are 10 strong.) The problem comes in doing so in an all comers list. Ways wolves could beat paladins in CC (assuming you get all this done right) IF they are all Halberds Throw a Dread with a CCW into the fray. Use thunderwolf lords with fists and hammers. Multi-charge with a few units. Use a unit of Grey hunters, or Fenrisian wolves etc to tie up most of the paladins, then assault a lord or 2 into A single paladin. That way at best he is getting 3 attacks (and if he has the banner, try to put the lords just on that guy since he has no force weapon) Your unit of GHs or Fenrisians will probably Die, but then you can start instant deathing paladins with your lords. As for outside of CC IF Draigo is not in the unit shoot it with S8 shots (especially melta). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 If you go into combat with Paladins have big enough squads that your power fists will survive long enough to do damage to them other than that you have it right in the first paragraph, don't go into combat with them. Shoot the killy stuff, kill the shooty stuff. Its a simple mantra but its still very very true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3058635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 10 man Hunter squads can pack 2 meltas Thundercheese cav can pack stormshields and overwhelm with attacks. Thunderhamer/stormshield combos tend to ruin paladin's day. what you need are weapons with strengh of 8+ with AP2 or ignoring armour saves. It wastes theextra points of apaladin as they lose the second wound due to instant death. The true Wolf strengh has always been that they can outfight what they can't outshoot but they can outshoot what thy can't outfight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schultzhoffen Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 First advice: play the mission objectives. Psybolt ammo across the board means GKs can ALSO outshoot you. High I Force Weapons (bye bye Thunderwolves), Psychic Powers, assassins, fancy grenades, etc means GKs WILL out assault you. The GK Codex is a Power Gamer's dream with a very shallow learning curve. If you try to get into a pi$$ing contest, you'll always lose. Last advice: play the mission objectives -they can be outmanouvered and outnumbered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of fact Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Depends what list you want, lots of heavy ect Personally my list always includes the following (now dont laugh at the hq choice he pretty awesome) HQ Bjorn the fell handed excels in the midfield. For me he strolls up the middle blasting with his plasma cannon targetting terminators or hard hitting stuff. On paper he is not great but the amount of firepower he draws is huge, iv seen him wade through 2 greater demons and come out the otherside. while thats happening your grey hunters can zoom about taking objectives while long fangs with rockets target transports. i had grey knights and got rid of them as the amount of cheddar i could create was wild Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 First advice: play the mission objectives. Psybolt ammo across the board means GKs can ALSO outshoot you. High I Force Weapons (bye bye Thunderwolves), Psychic Powers, assassins, fancy grenades, etc means GKs WILL out assault you. The GK Codex is a Power Gamer's dream with a very shallow learning curve. If you try to get into a pi$$ing contest, you'll always lose. Last advice: play the mission objectives -they can be outmanouvered and outnumbered. How many Grey Knight lists are you seeing that take all Psybolt ammo and if they are its even better because there are less of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 First advice: play the mission objectives. Psybolt ammo across the board means GKs can ALSO outshoot you. High I Force Weapons (bye bye Thunderwolves), Psychic Powers, assassins, fancy grenades, etc means GKs WILL out assault you. The GK Codex is a Power Gamer's dream with a very shallow learning curve. If you try to get into a pi$$ing contest, you'll always lose. Last advice: play the mission objectives -they can be outmanouvered and outnumbered. How many Grey Knight lists are you seeing that take all Psybolt ammo and if they are its even better because there are less of them. Every list I mkae has 10 man squads with psybolt ammo. It's actualy really cheep and very effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 First advice: play the mission objectives. Psybolt ammo across the board means GKs can ALSO outshoot you. High I Force Weapons (bye bye Thunderwolves), Psychic Powers, assassins, fancy grenades, etc means GKs WILL out assault you. The GK Codex is a Power Gamer's dream with a very shallow learning curve. If you try to get into a pi$$ing contest, you'll always lose. Last advice: play the mission objectives -they can be outmanouvered and outnumbered. How many Grey Knight lists are you seeing that take all Psybolt ammo and if they are its even better because there are less of them. Every list I mkae has 10 man squads with psybolt ammo. It's actualy really cheep and very effective. Just on Paladins or across Strikes as well? Paladins I can understand it and all it comes down to is attrition, hoping you survive long enough to table your opponent On Strikes having them take Psybolt ammo is a bonus, less bodies on an already elite army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'd like to take this opportunity to chime in and state that I don't use Psybolt ammo at all as I think army-wide Storm Bolters are a considerable improvement on the squad-standard firepower of most other armies anyway. Secondly, i'd like to emphasise that not all Grey Knight players are power gamers or chose the codex because it's uber powerful. I chose them because i'm an Imperial player through and through, and after picking an all round army (Dark Angels) and a firepower army (Imperial Guard), i decided i wanted an army that was different from both, yet still Imperial. For me, the Grey Knights fulfil the dangerous-in-an-assault niche that i didn't already have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 First advice: play the mission objectives. Psybolt ammo across the board means GKs can ALSO outshoot you. High I Force Weapons (bye bye Thunderwolves), Psychic Powers, assassins, fancy grenades, etc means GKs WILL out assault you. The GK Codex is a Power Gamer's dream with a very shallow learning curve. If you try to get into a pi$$ing contest, you'll always lose. Last advice: play the mission objectives -they can be outmanouvered and outnumbered. How many Grey Knight lists are you seeing that take all Psybolt ammo and if they are its even better because there are less of them. Every list I mkae has 10 man squads with psybolt ammo. It's actualy really cheep and very effective. Just on Paladins or across Strikes as well? Paladins I can understand it and all it comes down to is attrition, hoping you survive long enough to table your opponent On Strikes having them take Psybolt ammo is a bonus, less bodies on an already elite army. I don't Draigo wing. Sometimes I'll use a 5 man pally bodyguard for a Grandmaster (that's how they are supposed to be after all), but my armies are based on ten man standard Grey Knight termies and I use psybolts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'd like to take this opportunity to chime in and state that I don't use Psybolt ammo at all as I think army-wide Storm Bolters are a considerable improvement on the squad-standard firepower of most other armies anyway. Secondly, i'd like to emphasise that not all Grey Knight players are power gamers or chose the codex because it's uber powerful. I chose them because i'm an Imperial player through and through, and after picking an all round army (Dark Angels) and a firepower army (Imperial Guard), i decided i wanted an army that was different from both, yet still Imperial. For me, the Grey Knights fulfil the dangerous-in-an-assault niche that i didn't already have. Yeah, in a way Wolves and Grey Knights are similar, often cheesed and abused by win at all costs gamers and giving the rest of us a bad rep. I go for themed armies and I love the concept of a small group of Terminators going in and getting the job done. I hate painting white so Deathwing doesn't suit me and I've been an avid Grey Knight player since codex daemonhunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schultzhoffen Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Don't get me wrong -I don't think everyone who has a GK army is a power gamer, I'm saying that the Codex is outstanding and that there is no such thing as a weak GK army (unless you have the army building skills of a 3 year old). It doesn't matter if other marine armies slightly outnumber GKs -High Init Force Weapons with multiple attacks and psychic powers more than even the odds. Also...Purifiers. 'nuff said. Grey Hunters and CAttack mean nothing if they die like flies to high Init Force Weapons (in ALL UNITS) BEFORE they strike. Ditto Thunderwolves, Blood Claws, etc. NO other marine army has the numbers to absorb such losses and win combat. 30 man Ork mobs MIGHT (dependant on a number of factors). Also -Psybolt ammo is available to ALL units at a VERY reasonable cost (slightly more than a SINGLE assault maine cost for the WHOLE unit). DIRT CHEAP for a Str 5 Storm Bolter, eh? A fully kitted out Strike Squad (basic troop unit) with x7 Force Swords, x2 Force Halberds (+2 Init), x1 Daemon Hammer, x2 Psycannons, and Psybolt Ammo in a rhino costs the same (roughly) as a 8 man Teminator squad. Bear in mind that more Halberds can be taken...oh, and the delightful HAMMERHAND psychic power makes the WHOLE squad STR5 in CC...with Init 6 Nemesis Force Weapons... That's a basic TROOP/Scoring unit. Eat that Grey Hunters/Thunderwolf Cavalry/Blood Claws/etc Wait till you encounter Str 8 twin-linked autocannon rifleman dreads. Nasty. Nasty. Nasty. This DOES NOT mean GKs can't be beaten! This means that you have to use your brains. Trying to "out tough" GKs will end up in a loss for you (unless the GK player is useless/horribly unlucky or both) - they simply ARE more macho! Mission objectives. Mission objectives. Mission objectives. Use your smarts and you stand a good chance of winning. Maybe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252163-facing-grey-knights-in-combat/#findComment-3059743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.