Cyrox Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Just finished reading the first story from The Primarchs, and thought it posed an interesting and rather obvious question at the end.... Did Fulgrim really manage to cast aside the Daemon in his body and claim it back, as he claims, or is he just trying to dupe his men and its still the Deamon in Fulgrims' body, while Fulgrim himself remains trapped within the painting? I tend to believe the latter, but its a good point for discussion. Not really a fan of Heresy/Post Heresy EC and Slaanesh, but i thought it was well written and enjoyable. Don't forget the spoiler tags folks :wacko: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I think it is Fulgrim. Or daemon and Fulgrim are coalescing into one being. Kinda like Argel Tal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3058725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineswords Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Agreed with the second poster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3058736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I'm inclined to believe it's Fulgrim based on the events in the mirror-forest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenArtist Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Havent read the book yet but i would like to believe That Fulgrim is really Fulgrim and he took his body back.I think it adds a twist to the story; because most people or at least i though he would be trapt forever but hey i could be wrong jus my thoughts I am really excited for the Fallen Angels book though!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Thought it was definitely Fulgrim by the end. I'm not sure at what point in the story (or potentially even before the story started) he displaced the daemon. I think it was before the story started, but that Fulgrim was deliberately acting like he was still possessed in order to make his legion behave in a particular manner (or something - need to re-read it because I didn't quite get that part on the first reading). I also agree with the earlier poster that the two entities are merging to a degree, so at times Fulgrim appears incredibly ancient etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge The Weak Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I think it was the daemon to be honest. Lucius sees that nothing can be done and that he will die if he says otherwise. I still think fulgrim is pure at heart and would fight against horus. The daemon isn't stupid, if it let him in even a fraction he could muster the will to banish it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 You think Fulgrim is pure of heart??? Fulgrim is utterly corrupt. The daemon helped corrupt him, but either way, he's corrupt by Isstvan. He is briefly remorseful after he kills Ferrus, but explicitly states in this story he quickly got over that and has gone back to his corrupt ways. I thought it was really good in this story that McNeil explicitly addressed/undid the impression many seemed to take from the novel Fulgrim that it was purely the daemon who did horrible things, and that Fulgrim was a helpless victim with no agency of his own. He's a Primarch - no daemon could corrupt him unless he WANTED to be corrupted. Fulgrim was never a hapless puppet - he knew what he was doing and he did it because, rare pangs of guilt aside, it felt good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge The Weak Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Well it said he wouldn't of done any of that without the daemons influence. He had flaws of which the daemon used. I think he still could be a good guy, generally no one knows if it is actually fulgrim, the daemon or both. Lucius already stopped himself duelling because he knew he would die, could of just done this again. Maybe if the author clarified it would put some light. A question to ask in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 This has me confused as well! Next book signing, Im going to ask Graham straight! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 You think Fulgrim is pure of heart??? Fulgrim is utterly corrupt. The daemon helped corrupt him, but either way, he's corrupt by Isstvan. He is briefly remorseful after he kills Ferrus, but explicitly states in this story he quickly got over that and has gone back to his corrupt ways. Aegnor you are taking what is implied, and turning it into stone cast fact. It could be that the daemon possesing Fulgrim is saying what Lucuis wants to hear, claiming that he is the real Fulgrim and has gotten rid of the deamon Don't forget, there is the line at the end where he regards the portrait with a 'secret smile' Until we hear it from Graham, you can't assume anything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I want to believe that fulgrim escaped the daemons clutches However I think what really happens is that the daemon is lying Also is the pear shaped thing what I think it is and somewhere it really shouldn’t be?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I think Fulgrim was banashed to the picture Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Did't they have an entire scene in the crystal forest focusing on Fulgrim and his inner doubts? If it was just the daemon then the scene would not fit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan the Lurker Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I want to believe that fulgrim escaped the daemons clutches However I think what really happens is that the daemon is lying Also is the pear shaped thing what I think it is and somewhere it really shouldn’t be?! Sure sounded like a Pear of Anguish to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3059917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I think it is... Fulgrim as well, also merging with daemon (He will make use of him later comment...), and the fact he has no remorse over Ferrus now. He is moving forward with his freaky bad ass-ness with no regrets. Did't they have an entire scene in the crystal forest focusing on Fulgrim and his inner doubts? If it was just the daemon then the scene would not fit. Agreed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3061220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Sort of detracts from the tradgedy, in a way! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3061460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Sort of detracts from the tradgedy, in a way! But adds to depravity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3061487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Fulgrim's dialogue in crystal forest plays well to the idea that it _is_ Fulgrim, and daemon, finding the way out at last, tries to subvert Fulgrim one more time. But then at the point of traitors' conclave, daemon is still in control, and, more importantly, why the sudden change between 'oh my god, what have I done?!' in the end of Fulgrim to 'yeah, baby, let's do it more!' in Reflexion. But I was more surprised by Eidolon's death. I remember him being mentioned at the Siege of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3061528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 But I was more surprised by Eidolon's death. I remember him being mentioned at the Siege of Terra. This. Also, wasn't he supposed to be in charge of a Daemon world or an EC warband in the Eye? I know that McNeill was trying to show how depraved the Legion had become but reading about the Pear of Anguish etc reminded me of my time reading R v Brown... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3061605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I say it's good riddance. Ever since he was retconned to an incompetent, stuck up schmuck in HH novels, he was doomed to die a miserable death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3061610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Yeah, wasn't sad that Eidolan died, but would have liked it if Lucius had done it myself. Like Nemiel in The Lion , he's a pretty significant character, in terms of pages featured in the series to date, to get offed like a random red-shirt as a mere aside. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3062380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syagrius Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I agree with earlier posters that the scene in the crystal forest shows that Fulgrim is in control, particularly regarding the mention of Ferrus and shame though I'll admit I read it twice to be sure. I also like that the corrupt, depraved stuff we might have attributed to the daemon turns out actually to be Fulgrim himself instead. It's a dark surprise, but I liked it. As for when Fulgrim retook control, it must be after the war council (I can't remember which book that's in) where Lorgar smacked him (being able to tell that Fulgrim wasn't himself), but before the events of The Reflection Crack'd, indeed Fulgrim mentions that he allowed the daemon to retain control for a while, which assumedly covers that period, although for how long the writers planned these revelations, isn't clear, I don't think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3068904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 In Aurelian Lorgar is talking to the daemon-Fulgrim and tells him in the end 'you're in for surprise'. I never thought the surprise would come so early )) But then, it still can be daemon lying to Lucius and other captains. But it's hard to explain the scene in the forest then. Surely Fulgrim talks to his portrait there, no doubting that. But if the reflexion is real Fulgrim, why would it try to besiege daemon with guilt? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3069284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Is it just me or Fulgrim is too powerful even for a primarch ? The guy shrugged off a major daemonic assault on his soul, swaps his conscious on a whim, casts Magnus level spells and destroys a titan without an effort, survives a point blank noise marine assault without a scratch, again gets mentally and physically beat by various torture trinkets and has his foot and brain melt off only to regenerate in an instant etc. No wonder Guilliman got his package handled by him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/#findComment-3069291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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