Smirnov Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 He's half deamonprince by that point. No one can stand aginst one. Except Draigo, of course. You can only imagine how powerful Magnus became post ascension. Or Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3069302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhetoricus Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Yeah, wasn't sad that Eidolan died, but would have liked it if Lucius had done it myself. Like Nemiel in The Lion , he's a pretty significant character, in terms of pages featured in the series to date, to get offed like a random red-shirt as a mere aside. I gotta say I liked the way it went down. Seemed fitting to be ended by the one he was so snivellingly desperate to please. I hope I just made a new word. Oh and what's a red shirt? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3069315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 He's half deamonprince by that point. No one can stand aginst one. Except Draigo, of course.You can only imagine how powerful Magnus became post ascension. Or Lorgar. Actually, Magnus' post ascension feats in Battle of the Fang are not very impressive especially compared to Angron in Armageddon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3069327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Oh and what's a red shirt? link Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3069328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 He's half deamonprince by that point. No one can stand aginst one. Except Draigo, of course.You can only imagine how powerful Magnus became post ascension. Or Lorgar. Actually, Magnus' post ascension feats in Battle of the Fang are not very impressive especially compared to Angron in Armageddon. Didn't read that one, despite all the good reviews, as it seemed to me to be yet another story where Wolves beat everything, specifically the Thousand Sons. Again. :) But yeah, getting seriously wounded by a regular Great Wolf isn't something a daemonprince should do. And to stay on topic, Emperor's Children didn't have the amount of psychic defence Wolves have. No one tried to assault Fulgrim with something psychic-bane. And trying to make avatar of BDSM feel some pain hoping that it'll displease him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3069336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhetoricus Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Oh and what's a red shirt? link Hahaha love it. How have I not heard that before? Insane. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3069337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Word from the man himslef, its the demon in the picture. Personally I find this a bit sad, as I always felt Fulgrim was corrupted from without as such, and transcended the grief of killing ferrus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3070555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Word from the man himself counts not a single drop in the ocean more than an interptation by a reader. Once a work is out, a creator's word doesn't mean anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3070572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I like that. Fulgrim was one of my favourite primarchs, and the horror what was realised in his name, and the guilt seems to be nothing, I prefer that Fulgrim was in the picture forever aghast at what had happened in his name. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3070583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted May 27, 2012 Author Share Posted May 27, 2012 Word from the man himslef, its the demon in the picture. Personally I find this a bit sad, as I always felt Fulgrim was corrupted from without as such, and transcended the grief of killing ferrus. Did he tell you this, or has he written it somewhere? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3070812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I asked him at a book signing! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3070859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Here's food for thought though. What if Fulgrim and the daemon switched places before the story happened? Between Aurelian and the Reflection Crack'd? I'm suggesting this because going over his episode in the forest of mirrors, especially his thing about Ferrus Manus supposed to causing him guilt, combined with Lucius' dream from before hand where the eyes of the painting were supposed to already be old beyond imagining. Just food for thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3071087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Word from the man himself counts not a single drop in the ocean more than an interptation by a reader. Once a work is out, a creator's word doesn't mean anything. EDIT: Ok, apologies for the tone of the original post (still to be seen in the quote below), but this is nonsense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3071193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Word from the man himself counts not a single drop in the ocean more than an interptation by a reader. Once a work is out, a creator's word doesn't mean anything. Keep telling yourself that. Yeah, I don't quite understand the philosophy about the Author's word not meaning anything..... It's THEIR book. That said, since the author's insight is not publicly known, it is still speculative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3071207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Well according to Graham, he said it was obvious that it was the demon in the picture. As I always thought it was Fulgrim. However he did also say that he will be expanding on this with the the next EC book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3071567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Made it pretty clear that the being in the picture was the Daemon. When they switched back however is pretty unclear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3071732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 They must of done it after Aurelian as the Daemon was still walking around in his meat suit, how does he do it is the main question now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3071733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sponsra Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Wait, I don´t get it... So the deamon and Fulgrim had swopped places before the story started: Fulgrim had his body back and the deamon was in the painting trying to convince Lucius to set him free or something? And Fulgrim endured the whole torture thing just to prove a point to his men? What´s all the talk of "switching back"? Does the deamon reclaim Fugrims body at the end? Confused .... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3072410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Word from the man himself counts not a single drop in the ocean more than an interptation by a reader. Once a work is out, a creator's word doesn't mean anything. EDIT: Ok, apologies for the tone of the original post (still to be seen in the quote below), but this is nonsense. Literary criticism since the 60s says you're wrong ;) Less facetiously, I agree with Unintentional Batman. Judging the story on something that isn't in the book – for example, an author's statement made later – imposes limits on the text. Authors can easily put something subconsciously unintended into the text, for example; and can later come to recognise it. That's not to say the author's word is meaningless or unimportant; but it doesn't have to be taken into account in analysis. If you take the approach that the writer is the ultimate authority, literary critique simply boils down to whether the author got his point across or not in a story, and it doesn't have much meaning or value beyond that. Kol_Saresk has the right idea – looking for evidence within the text. Analysing a book, like any interaction with a piece of art, is a two-way process, and says as much about the reader as the author. In a series like the Horus Heresy books, authorial intent is even less useful, as it relies on the interpretation of other writers in turn; an ultimately futile (or at least arguable) step. I found The Reflection Crack'd enjoyable for a number of reasons, not least of which is that the Emperor's Children are shown to have continued to fall; that their actions in earlier titles had consequences, and that we're seeing the differentiation between the Emperor's and Horus' forces made more clear. The theme of freedom is apparent in this story arc: Fulgrim swaps loyalty to the Emperor for slavery to a daemon in Fulgrim, but by the events of The Reflection Crack'd, he's broken free again. However, this freedom is cancerous – it's entropy and chaos; confusion and misdirection rather than self-control. Fulgrim's development into the being we see in The Reflection Crack'd is a synthesis of his baser nature with the daemon; the power struggle and masochistic relationship between the two ultimately leads to Fulgrim being master of his own destiny, but only by subverting everything he once held dear (his perfectionism). The repetition of symbols like the mirrors, the painting (representation), mistaken identity... these are symptomatic of misdirection and statements of identity, which are subverted and used to show that Fulgrim 'triumphs' over the daemon by the most petty manner possible. He regains his flesh but becomes worse than the daemon! I think McNeill did a great job in employing the repeated mirror motif to demonstrate how the Primarch (and his Legion) has fallen further than we knew; and has built him up to be a complex villain. I'll look forward to seeing the Emperor's Children appearing in later books in the series. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3072453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I kind of remember the painting of Fulgrim in Fulgrim coming out as being a messed up piece of wierd. Like it was supposed to be the portrait of the daemon. Then when you see the mirror in La Fenice, it is a painting of Fulgrim looking like Fulgrim. That kind of sang out to me that Fulgrim had pushed the daemon back into his mind. I really love the idea that this daemon thought itself to be powerful enough to wear the primarch, and at first it was, but as everyone knows, once one becomes the Illuminati, (for those newer to fluff, someone who successfully casts out daemonic possession through sheer force of will), said Illuminati has looked into the warp and "knows". The add this to the fact that Fulgrim if a being constructed partially from the warp, it is easy to imagine that all the Primarchs have latent psychic talent. I believe Fulgrim was initially overwhelmed by the upstart daemon, because it was new, but as he learned its secrets he pimp slapped it back into his mind to further torture for knowledge unknown. And the pleading eyes of the painting really show how messed up Fulgrim is, that a daemon wants no part of you...you gotta be a REALLY bad apple! I do find it funny though that when Fulgrim came out people complained that a Primarch got possessed and it was a cop out that it wasn't really Fulgrim that was evil, and now we know its changed, people are now whining about that!!! Come on EC fans! It was daddio all along! Have some pride! Also about the wounds healing instantly and the sheer amount of damage Fulgrim seemed to be able to shake off, I believe Fabius knew it was Fulgrim, as mentioned with the "consiratorial glances" between the two at the start of the torture that I think Lucius notices, he knew he could torture him mercilessly as he would enjoy it, and also he does state that Fulgrim was in a state of transformation, that he was changing. Gees, even the hints to him becoming half snake as depicted in the fluff are hinted at a Lucius ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION mentions how Fulgrims hips and torso seem to be moving in an almost serpentine manner, and that makes him suspicious! Edit: And yes, that pear shaped implement did tickle Fulgrims prostate, and yes, he did enjoy it! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3073058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.G.J. Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I haven't read Reflection Crack'd, but I enjoyed Fulgrim thoroughly. Well, other than him getting trapped in a gore-smeared feces-painting. It just took a bit of the starch out of a primarch I thought. So whereas I haven't read this next installment, I am thoroughly hoping he got his hands on some paint-thinner and made a Picasso out of the demon. At the same time I think it's McNeil intent to keep it slightly ambiguous and it does make for some suspense between installments. I want to see Fulgrim triumph and become a demon-prince by his own volition and actions. Not by being remote controlled by some sword fairy. However, if that happens in this story or if it happens in a future novel, doesn't really matter. I will likely enjoy them nonetheless. Now I need to go find me some mind-erasing elixir to forget or try to pretend that I didn't just read all those spoilers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3073146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Watch a Justin Bieber music video followed by a Twilight marathon. The resulting coma will cause severe memory loss. Assuming you survive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3073148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.G.J. Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I doubt Fulgrim and all his hellish minions could cook up that kind of depravi.....I mean sensual repression. I think I prefer complete sensory deprivation....or full sensory depravity. Oh God! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3073160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Watch a Justin Bieber music video followed by a Twilight marathon. The resulting coma will cause severe memory loss. Assuming you survive. That is a hateful combination. I am sickened just reading it. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3073182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Basically this short story rectified the problem that some people had before at the the end of Fulgrim when it seemed like it had been a bit of a cop out. That Fulgrim the primarch hadn't turned and it was a daemon instead, the real Fulgrim still being loyal but trapped for ever. A lot of people took issue with this at the time. However, now it's all be sorted out, Fulgrim was under the thrall of a daemon, it momentarily broke his spirit as he killed Ferrus and as a result trapped him but Fulgrim had already started down the route to corruption and eventually broke free and while initially feeling remorse over the murder of his brother he ultimately couldn't resist the urges and seduction that Slaanesh had shown him. The "real" Fulgrim has turned, he *is* a proper traitor. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252200-the-reflection-crackd/page/2/#findComment-3073703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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