Index Astartes: Supernovas

[Wargamer]

Too many posts are coming in under my radar! >.<

 

In universe. As in "the people in the fictional world of 40K believe female Space Marines are impossible."

An extremely large number of people in the 40K universe believe Warp Travel is impossible, according to certain sources - I recall a quote along the lines of "better not let a man experience warp travel. Better still, let him not know such things are possible." I might go find that later...

 

So your chapter master chose to risk wasting the chapter's geneseed, the precious irreplacable future of the chapter, the genetic legacy of his forefathers sanctified by the Emperor, because some Serf didn't do his research.

Pretty much, yes. It was not a choice made rashly, but Space Marines are more interesting, I find, when they can come to a conclusion that isn't based on Mathhammer and Logic. Sometimes, you just have to do something because your ideology, your 'code of honour' demands it.

 

Also, you do realize that any low-tech (or, arguably, high-tech) culture that sends the women out to fight while the men stay home is doing things the stupidest of stupid ways, right? If only from a reproductive standpoint.

It's a big galaxy - not all of it has to run on common sense. Besides, the idea of warrior women is common enough in our world, from Valkyries to Amazonians. 40K has Female-Only Guard Regiments already, so I'd hardly call this an unacceptable stretch of the imagination.

 

Also also, what kind of serf wouldn’t know about the most infamous raiders on his home world?

One who wasn't born on Tasal? One who was raised in the Cloisters as a hereditary slave rather than being a failed aspirant? One from Yyth, or some other culture on the other side of the planet where the Icelanders virtually never reach? One from the Wyldstawk, where a patch of dirt five feet across is considered a wide expanse of flat ground?

 

Or, hell, someone who DID know who they were and was so scared of them he spent half the time trying not to piss his pants, and got careless with the wording - "Novitae" universally means "warrior in training", but if you come from a culture where only men can be Novitae, wouldn't that be an easy mistake to make?

 

The comment is meaningless because it disagrees with you, not because what it says is meaningless. Among other things, male tissues are composed of cells which have Y chromosomes. Find a female with THAT. Equally, find a female with pubescent male levels of testosterone.

I can find you people who have XXY Chromosomes... and I already hinted that one interpretation of how Female Space Marines could work is that they are given this third chromosome. It's not my idea personally, hence why I don't use it, but I admit it's a good one.

 

You are interpreting the statement to mean "possessed exclusively by males" as opposed to "in the forms and quantities possessed by males".

Actually, I do interpret it as the latter - hence why I justify my Adepta as having their 'forms and quantities' altered by the Apothecaries to allow them to become Marines in the first place.

 

.None of your sources say “women can do it”. There are no examples of women doing it. The male pronoun is used exclusively throughout (though, of course, there are male Howling Banshees, where the female pronoun is used exclusively, and female Farseers, where the male pronoun is used exclusively).

The Imperial Guard codex has traditionally used male pronouns as well. Nobody started screaming the place down when the idea of Female Guard reared its head.

 

So we have: one source that says women can’t do it, no examples of women doing it, and a bunch of other sources that are arguably neutral but lean toward “women can’t do it” (exclusively male language, no counterexamples within the sources, many examples of male language being used where neutral language would be expected).

 

That adds up to “no”, not “yes”.

By similar logic, there's nothing in any fluff to suggest my Chapter exists at all... so you're saying I shouldn't be allowed to make my own Chapter now?

 

Apothecaries in many chapters don't even understand the exact workings of geneseed. Modifying it is another issue altogether. And there's a big bloody difference between switching out a gun and genetic manipulation. And between messing with a Predator and messing with the Emperor-created sacred stuff that Marines are made of.

I'm not talking about messing with the Geneseed; I'm messing with the person receiving it. There's been a couple of Space Wolf books that have shown that Chapter doing some crazy stuff to the human body, even going so far as to cure the Curse of the Wolfen at one point (don't worry, a big Deus Ex Machina rushes in to set the status quo back on track).

 

Is it that hard to believe the Apothecaries can perform a partial sex-change on a young woman prior to inserting gene seed?

 

The Adeptus Mechanicus controls over 10% of Imperial worlds. Each of those worlds has a Titan Legion. If they want to come investigate, they can. Also, remember who trains Techmarines?

Where'd you get that figure from?

 

Furthermore, Astartes are autonomous. The official policy of the Imperium is that they deal with themselves; it's all done in house. On occasion, issues arise (I recall at one point that the Iron Hands were not allowed to use Rosarii because their Chaplains preached something outlandishly heretical in the eyes of the Ecclesiarchy...), but by and large Astartes chapters do what they want, and as long as the end result is that they protect the Imperium, it's all good.

 

What, you mean the bit about them being a lost Second Founding Space Wolves successor who missed the Heresy?

 

Or the bit where you named them the Superstars? :)

"Supr" means "Second". Their correct name is "The Second Stars that Fell."

 

If you want the out of universe explanation, like a lot of people I made the Chapter before having a fully formed idea of what they were. They've had three colour schemes, two homeworlds, their gene-seed has changed origin multiple times (originally Space Wolf, then Ultramarines, then back to Space Wolves because they've been by favourite Chapter for years, then briefly Raven Guard, and now they're Ultramarine again).

 

I dislike having to throw anything away. Besides, this is 40K - a setting where it takes longer than the average life span for your birth certificate to be processed. You'll notice the pictures show an Eagle over an Aquila? That's because up until about a year ago that was my Chapter's symbol. Now it's not. How do I explain it? Do I claim "it never was my Chapter symbol!" No, I say "it never was, but someone thought it was."

 

Ultimately my Chapter, like many things in 40K, is somewhat inconsistent. This I am fine with; they're way out on the bleeding edge of the Imperium, the parts where the map-makers draw the giant space krakens and the gothic cherubs because they haven't got any factual information to fill the map with. They are out there for a reason - by being off the map, it makes all this weirdness far more acceptable; face it, you'd believe anything about a place like Tasal, situated as it is below the parchment labelled "Heere Be Dragonnes".

 

I read it, and I liked most of it.

My god, a post that isn't about the Adepta! :cuss

 

I like how you have developed your Homeworld, I appreciate the variety in culture rather than the bland uniformity found in many IAs. The idea of the Weyes being a pilgrimage is pretty neat too (although I am not sure about making them company "owned"). Warrior women on the homeworld is also cool, I know the SW use them in the version of the Fenrisian PDF.

"Owned" is perhaps the wrong word... it's more like a privilage. In the same way that a Marine might compete for the honour of being the Chapter Champion, or carrying a relic into battle, Supernovas compete for the right to follow a Weye.

 

When war breaks out, it's all fair game - a call to arms means you can go where you like, by whatever route you like. Nobody in the Seventh will complain that Third Company took the Weye of Iron to intercept a Tyranid splinter fleet, but the mundane patrolling is generally only done by those who have been granted the honour of doing so. To ignore this would be akin to snatching a banner off the appointed bearer because you wanted to carry it instead.

 

Regarding the female Marines, (my personal feeling is that it is impossible without the Y chromosome) my major critique would be the number of wasted implants. If 600 were implanted and only 20 survived, that is a failure of nearly 97%, a massive waste of an extremely limited resource, and enough to brand that experiment as a complete and total failure. Fluff wise, I see no problem with your chapter attempting it once (particularly with their distant and isolated realm) but to continue the practice with that kind of failure rate is almost the definition of stupidity.

I think there's a little confusion there; remember, most aspirants (in any Chapter) will be rejected long before the first of the Geneseed is implanted. Six hundred were taken to Trials, and of them only twenty became Scouts (Novitae). Of these, eight died before they could become full-fledged Space Marines. That does not mean that all six hundred received Geneseed - I did state that fully half were taken as Serfs, and that is likely to have happened long before they went under the knife to be experimented on by the Apothecaries...

 

Oh, and the theft of weapons, armor and gene-seed from other chapters after a battle is probably enough to be declared renegade and hated, or even hunted, by other chapters (much like the Astral Claws, if memory serves).

Again, I suppose this one of the weaknesses of the IA article. The actual fleshed out background (now long lost due to a computer crash) made it much clearer as to what went on. However, a synopsis is as follows:

 

The Inquisitor and his men gathered nearby Guard and fleet elements, along with Sisters. They called upon multiple Space Marine Chapters (at least eight, if I recall). Of these, the Black Templars and Knights of Flame dispatched forces. Other Chapters either refused to give aid, or in some cases threatened to side with the Supernovas.

 

The original work also made it clear that this was not a universal damnation - it was the will of one man, driven by a desire for revenge. The Inquisition did not carry an official grudge against the Chapter afterward.

 

As for the Knights of Flame... yes, there is most definitely issue between them and the Supernovas. However, Astartes problems are dealt with by Astartes - the inevitable conflict is what I plan to use as the next stage of evolution in my Chapter's fluff. I have long wanted to write a true Astartes civil war - not Imperial vs Chaos, but Imperial vs Imperial, with neither side as guilty or innocent as the other.

 

By stealing wargear, and precious Geneseed, the Supernovas have invoked a fury that will ensure I have players in that war... and I look forward to playing it out. :P

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, we're going into time out mode, which means the thread will be closed for awhile (a day or less).

 

When we return, there will be no more discussion on the (im)possibility of female Space Marines. We've been down this road many times before and won't be able to find any new ground to cover. The author has decided that the Supernova Chapter will have female Space Marines. All relevant information has been presented and considered, but the decision has been made. Prolonging the debate is counterproductive. So everyone that disagrees with the notion of female Space Marines is just going to have to ignore that part of the DIY and offer criticism on other elements of the Supernova Chapter (and if they just can't bring themselves to do that, they'll just have to ignore the whole topic).

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, this topic is being re-opened.

 

There will be no more debate about whether or not female Space Marines are possible. The author is aware of the official material and has decided that his DIY Chapter has female Space Marines.

 

Please focus comments on anything else about the Chapter that you like/dislike/think could be improved.

 

If you just can't get over the notion of female Space Marines, your best bet is to just ignore this discussion.

 

Any commentary about female Space Marines will be terminated with extreme prejudice (and that means comments for or against). And don't count on closing this topic down by filibustering on the female Space Marines issue - you're more likely to be on the receiving end of disciplinary action.

 

=][=

[TrashMan]

You have another major issue.

 

Your chapter opposes the AdMech. Keeping them at bay with force if necesary.. that can't work.

 

 

The Mechanicum is practicly THE force in the Imperium of Man. They hold all the technology - and unlike the Inquisition and hte Astartest, arne't nearly as splintered.

The entire Imperium depends on them - especially SM chapters. Anger them and your chapter doesn't get new veichles and weapons. No terminator armor. No techmarines. That's just them witholding stuff from you.

 

If they want to attack you, a single explorator fleet is more than a match for an entire SM fleet. They have thousands of titan legions, trillions of skirtarii and lord-only-knows what else.

 

Or they can say your gene-seed tithe was tainted and declare you heretics.

Or have the Inquisition declare you heretics.

And given the relations between the Inquisiton and your chapter are already in the crapper, I don't think they'd need convincing.

 

 

What keeps the Ad-Mech away? About a thousnd Bolters, plus assorted other small arms, heavy weapons, tanks, emplaced guns, orbital weapon platforms and starships.

Seriously, this is a SPACE MARINE CHAPTER we're talking about. The typical response to anyone trying to stick their nose into their business is ":) off." The Adeptus Mechanicus are not welcome to poke around Tasal as and when they feel like, and as such they are arguably unaware the Adepta even exist.

 

Your chapter is basicly angering and giving the finger to the two most powerfull insitution in the entire IoM, each of which is capable of ending a SM chapter.

 

 

EDIT:

And you seem to ignore a far more sensible alternative - regular gene-enhancment. Like Luther of the Dark Angels. The "False Astartes". They were enhanced as much as possible and given power armor. Not as good as a normal Astartest, but good enough (and close neough). And it doesn't have any of the negatives - no problems with rejections/death, no risk loosing precious gene-seed, no risk angering anyone in the IoM.

[PorridgeMeister]

Trashman has summed up pretty much everything that I want to say:

 

- Trying to resist the AdMech is beyond foolish - ever heard of the Soul Drinkers Chapter? It didn't go too well for them, even though they were in the right.

 

- Your Chapter had an actual war with the Inquisition and they only brought what 200 Astartes, a similar number of SoB and several regiments of Guard? That is a tiny force if the Inquisitor was trying to bring an entire Chapter to heel, and they would have surely declared you Extremis Traitoris and committed you to exterminatus!

 

- Being Space Wolf Successors, which is just stupid because they have no successors. Period. There is no arguing with that. You can go ahead and find other DIY Chapters posted on the Liber with Space Wolf geneseed, but there are no outright successors that the Liber's denizens have not condemned as fluff heretics!

 

-

Or the bit where you named them the Superstars?

"Supr" means "Second". Their correct name is "The Second Stars that Fell."

I am an A2 Latin student and will be studying Classics at a "Russell group" university next year. Supernova definitely does not mean "the Second Stars that fell" - it means literally "beyond new". I strongly recommend that you do not try to romanticize an already silly name.

[Wargamer]

- Your Chapter had an actual war with the Inquisition and they only brought what 200 Astartes, a similar number of SoB and several regiments of Guard? That is a tiny force if the Inquisitor was trying to bring an entire Chapter to heel, and they would have surely declared you Extremis Traitoris and committed you to exterminatus!

My Chapter had an actual war with an Inquisitor, and they were only able to gain support of about two hundred Astartes. He probably did declare the Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris, but as a fan of the Inquisitor roleplay I am well aware that all it takes to debunk that is a more senior Inquisitor to turn around and say "No, stop being stupid."

 

You are right, of course; the fource is far too small to do any real damage to an entire Chapter. It's not a bad force, however, for a man who isn't really interested in due process. Perhaps I should expand on that aspect to make it clearer. I should also try and find the guy's name... but I think those notes are gone so I may have to make one up.

 

- Being Space Wolf Successors, which is just stupid because they have no successors. Period. There is no arguing with that. You can go ahead and find other DIY Chapters posted on the Liber with Space Wolf geneseed, but there are no outright successors that the Liber's denizens have not condemned as fluff heretics!

If you actually read the fluff, you'll notice that it didn't work.

 

The argument you are making, or at least should be making, is that "you can't have a Space Wolf successor because their geneseed is unstable."

Go back and read the IA article. Specifically, the bits where it states the Chapter had to be refounded with Ultramarines geneseed because the Wolf Gene wouldn't take for long.

 

 

As to the name, the Chapter venerates the Emperor in the guise of a Celtic god, and their chapter symbol is a Celtic symbol. Do you really believe that I am trying to 'Romanize' words?

Tasal has its own language. It has several languages, in fact, but for practice I've just got one dominent one, typically portrayed as a very bastardised Gothic. "Wyldstawk" means "Wild Woods", "Novitae" is a bastardisation of "Novice", but with a slightly different meaning. "Loch" means "musket" or, for the more advanced, "firearm."

None of these terms were devised by looking up a Latin dictionary. Latin is for High Gothic, and nobody on a backward world like Tasal would speak that language.

 

 

Prior to the lockdown I was going to throw a disclaimer about the Adepta, but it applies to everything in general; feedback, when given, should be given as you would to someone who was trying to portray a Chapter like the Ultramarines. You might suggest he alter how he portrays the First Company to include Sternguard and Vanguard squads, but you wouldn't tell him to change his armour to neon green.

 

The name of the Chapter, it's colours and its heraldry is immutable - they won't change. The exact shade of blue might (they are not meant to be Ultramarines blue, but it's hard to get the right tone on the painter) but the colour scheme is always going to be blue with black honour markings.

Likewise, the fact they train their Scouts 'Black Templar' style is fixed - I loved the idea when I came across it, and refused to let it go ever since.

The Adepta, as has been said, are fixed. Even without Moderator involvement, telling me not to include them is a waste of time.

 

But that does not mean there's no room for change. I've written a lot of stuff about this Chapter, and by now some of it is contradictory, or else lost when hard drives burned out and websites went to hell and a myriad of other ways you can lose data. The Index Astartes is, at best, an entry level overview of the Chapter; every key aspect, in theory at least, has deeper, more in-depth background to explain it.

 

If you feel there is a better way to bring certain aspects across, then by all means suggest it. If you feel there is insufficient information about a certain aspect of the Chapter, ask that I flesh it out more. If there's anything contradictory that feels like an out-of-universe mistake, rather than an in-universe "stupid bureaucrat who doesn't check his facts" contradiction, then point it out.

 

But the word "No" is just not going to be listened to. "You can't do this" to me means "I can't think of a way to do this," especially when a lot of people don't even bother to actually read what they're complaining about...

 

Edit: Fleshed out the Inquisition War to better portray the nature of the conflict.

[TrashMan]

But the word "No" is just not going to be listened to. "You can't do this" to me means "I can't think of a way to do this," especially when a lot of people don't even bother to actually read what they're complaining about...

 

 

NO usually means "you shouldn't do that because it's so contrarary to the theme/setting."

 

I mena..you CAN make pony marines. You CAN write a fanfic with superman being worse than Judge Dredd. You can make Batman fart lightining...or make him a mutant with bat-powers.

There's no way anyone can stop you.

 

But as the old saying goes - just because you can, doesn't mean you should (or that it's a good idea).

[Wargamer]

Yes, but this is what I find really, really stupid...

 

"You can't be Space Wolf successors because it won't work!"

"Okay... so my Chapter began as Space Wolves but due to genetic instability they had to refound as Ultramarines very soon after."

"NO! You can't be Space Wolf successors! IT WON'T WORK!"

 

Do you not see why certain people may be coming across as... foolish?

[TrashMan]

All fineand dandy.

 

But you still haven't adressed the isses I raised (the post just below the admin one)

[Wargamer]

Well, that one comes down to how I view the universe as a whole.

 

See, I don't believe for a moment that the Inquisition is anywhere near as all-powerful as they claim. Nor, for that matter, are the Mechanicum. I see the Imperium as a much more fractured entity than that.

 

Yes, collectively the Imperium is all powerful. Collectively the Mechanicum are not be messed with. Collectively the Space Marines could end all life in the Imperium if they felt like it. However, since when are these monolithic organisations united?

 

One Inquisitor's will can be overruled by another. What one Magos deems acceptable might be deemed blasphemous by another. The Badab War is a prime example of Chapters turning 'traitor' because they believed the word of the Astral Claws over the Imperial officials making the threats.

 

When the Administratum says please - and they would say please, because it pays to be polite when dealing with an autonomous entity capable of wiping out a Sector- "please hand over your Gene Tithe", the Supernovas hand over their Gene Tithe.

When the Mechanicum says "are you adhering to the Rites of the Omnissiah?" the Chapter, like every other Chapter, says 'Yes', and conveniently forgets to mention the fact that they ignore those Rites whenever it suits them.

When the Ecclesiarchy says "is your Chapter Cult adhering to our guidelines?" the Supernovas, like every other chapter, says 'Yes', and gives them a token copy of their Cult Doctrine... which may or may not be a few editions out of date.

 

But that's about it. Space Marines are left alone. As long as there is no reason to believe something is amiss, then nothing is amiss. If something is amiss, then you don't storm in any say "I can make you Excommunicate!" because their answer will probably be "I can make sure you, your retinue and your taskforce in orbit are never heard from again." You don't threaten Space Marines. If there's a problem, you have a quiet word with someone high up in the Chapter. If the problem persists, you have a quiet word with high-ups in several other Chapters. You don't go in with jackboots on unless you're very, very sure that public opinion - the Imperial power groups and other Astartes Chapters - are on your side.

[PorridgeMeister]

Do you not see why certain people may be coming across as... foolish?

I beg your pardon, but you have misunderstood me - they would have known that the geneseed is extremely unstable before messing around with it, so it wouldn't have happened in the first place. The Grey Slayers were Second Founding and your Chapter is Third Founding. Therefore, they wouldn't have done that gene experimentation in the first place.

 

Now, you say you don't believe that the Mechanicum are powerful, even though some of the greatest fluff-buffs of the Liber have come on to this thread and pointed out to you that they have the monopoly on power. Without their support, your Chapter won't get diddlysquat in terms of materiel or ammunition.

 

As to the name, the Chapter venerates the Emperor in the guise of a Celtic god, and their chapter symbol is a Celtic symbol. Do you really believe that I am trying to 'Romanize' words?

You have misunderstood me again - I said romanticize not romanize. I was inferring that you choose a cheesy name and then tried to make it sound good.

 

Yes, collectively the Imperium is all powerful. Collectively the Mechanicum are not be messed with. Collectively the Space Marines could end all life in the Imperium if they felt like it. However, since when are these monolithic organisations united?

You're missing the point yet again - they might not be united, but as we saw from the Soul Drinkers' example, one Magos is enough to get you into serious trouble. Besides you have forgotten the fact that the AdMech demands geneseed tithes to make sure everything is fine and they take stratified samples. So you are bound to get into serious trouble when they find that there are some female marines and the probability is high, given the fact that you have to submit tithes every hundred years and it has been more than a few hundred years since the Inquisition War and tithes will continue for a lot longer

 

"...you wouldn't tell him to change his armour to neon green..."

Yes, we would say to make a radical change to someone's Chapter ideas, if there was a good enough justification for it - and there has been, many-a-time. You are making it seem as if our suggestions are stupid, which they are not - you are the one who posted on this forum, which tells us that you want your help with something. Then, we point out obvious major flaws with your ideas, you say "No". We then cite several reputable canon sources and you say "No, you are interpreting that source wrongly."

 

Regarding your Inquisition War blurb, why would your Chapter use another's geneseed in order to increase their strength? Not only is that tantamount to declaring war on another Chapter, but why would your Chapter Master give the order for that? If he sent out new Charters to the planet, why would he need more marines? And when the AdMech does their tithes, won't they find out that your marines pilfered some geneseed from another Chapter? Which would result in yet another oscillation of defecation for your Chapter, probably such that nobody would want to be associated with them ever again, that is to say if you weren't denounced by the Inquisition.

[TrashMan]

Well, that one comes down to how I view the universe as a whole.

 

See, I don't believe for a moment that the Inquisition is anywhere near as all-powerful as they claim. Nor, for that matter, are the Mechanicum. I see the Imperium as a much more fractured entity than that.

 

Yes, collectively the Imperium is all powerful. Collectively the Mechanicum are not be messed with. Collectively the Space Marines could end all life in the Imperium if they felt like it. However, since when are these monolithic organisations united?

 

Mechanicum? Since always. While explorator magus are more independant, the AdMech does have a clear command structure and is a lot more cohesive than either the Inqusition or the Astartes. The AdMech don't take messing with them kindly either. They are probably the most powerfull organization in the imperium, and I wouldn't put it past them to drop a few Ordinatus on a chapter that angers them.

You don't threaten the mechanicum. They have bigger guns and more of them. And 99% of chapters are more likely to side with them rather than some random chapter that angered them.

 

So no, the brute force at repeling the AdMech does not work. Try subterfuge. But I doubt even that would work for long.

 

Inquisiton? Rarely. But it also depends. Inquisition has a reputation to defend and power strugled between the inquisition, Echelesuiarry, AdMech and Adeptus are no small matter. Anything that hurts the reputation of the inqusition as a whole, hurts all inquisitors.

 

And frankly, all this hand-waving of hte inquisition that's being done lately doesn't sit well with me. It used to be a big looming specter. Nowdays aynoen can kill inqusitors, anger them and do anything and it's all shruged away,

 

 

 

 

But that's about it. Space Marines are left alone. As long as there is no reason to believe something is amiss, then nothing is amiss. If something is amiss, then you don't storm in any say "I can make you Excommunicate!" because their answer will probably be "I can make sure you, your retinue and your taskforce in orbit are never heard from again." You don't threaten Space Marines. If there's a problem, you have a quiet word with someone high up in the Chapter. If the problem persists, you have a quiet word with high-ups in several other Chapters. You don't go in with jackboots on unless you're very, very sure that public opinion - the Imperial power groups and other Astartes Chapters - are on your side.

 

Not really. That Inquisitor in question can easily fabricate evidence agaisnt you if he so wants.

Even large, powerfull, old and honored chapters like the Space Wolves, who have many pacts with other chapters, don't cros the inquisition lightly.

The public oppinion is irelevant and always has been.

 

 

 

As to your solution... yes, it certainly is one explanation, but to me it feels like a cop out. "They're not actually Space Marines, they're just a similar, but inferior bio-augmented soldiers who might pass for Space Marines if you don't look hard enough." I appreciate that you made the effort, but I do not like it's implications; I want them to be Space Marines, not knock-offs.

 

It's not a cop-out, it's a compromise that works well and has precedents in the fluff and it's the only solution I could think off so far.

Look at the the Dark Angels. Was Luther treated any differently then toehr space marines? No. He was even second in command of the chapter and a important figure in the IoM.

 

I surely cannot stop you if you insist on the Adepta as they are, but don't except to find many (if any) supporters here on the liber. Some things are tabus and exist for a reason. And even if one disagrees, there are such things are proper place and time for it.

 

I could, for example, walk into a mosk in my dirty shoes and loudly proclaim that all this bare-feet stuff is nonsense. I could, but in reality all I'm doing is asking for a (justified) whippin'.

 

Spoken and unspoken rules exist and if nothing else, one should follow them out of respect of the household/locals/culture.

[Dosjetka]

Wargamer: Just a small piece of advice: Stop taking people for complete retards and start accepting that your view can be flawed. Sure, others in this thread have been wrong, but you're being defensive as hell and it's not going to help you in many ways. Be a bit more open-minded, for your own sake.

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[Wargamer]

Mechanicum? Since always. While explorator magus are more independant, the AdMech does have a clear command structure.

 

Inquisiton? Rarely. But it also depends. Inquisition has a reputation to defend and power strugled between the inquisition, Echelesuiarry, AdMech and Adeptus are no small matter. Anythign that hurt the reputation of the inqusition as a whole, hurts all inquisitors.

 

And frankly, all this hand-waving of hte inquisition that's being done lately doesn't sit well with me. It used to be a big looming specter. Nowdays aynoen can kill inqusitors, anger them and do anything and it's all shruged away,

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say they are being handwaved; I re-wrote the Inquisition War to clarify its nature. Yes, the Inquisition wanted the Supernovas to be 'brought to account' for what happened on Grimadon. However, that is not the same as being called Traitors. Someone blew up a planet, the Supernovas were involved in some way, and as such the Inquisition is (rightly) going to want an explanation.

 

The war itself happened because the Inquisitor in question did not want an explanation - he'd already decided the Chapter as a whole was guilty and set about tearing into them.

 

Again, the way this plays out is in part due to how I view the Imperium as a whole; no-one, not even an Inquisitor, can throw down the Big E.T. at a Space Marine Chapter without very good reason. Like any other organisation, Chapters make political alliances. When you declare a Chapter Traitoris, you are damning their allies by extension. This means the Archmagos who supplies their weapons is now, potentially, a Traitor to the Imperium. This means the fleet yards who build their ships could be guilty of supplying Traitors the means to invade other worlds. It means any Chapter with close bonds to the one you're after is also, potentially, just as guilty.

This means that all these power groups are going to come rush in and demand answers, and if they don't like your answers they might not take your side. Worse still, they might take your enemy's side, and before you know it you've got a civil war on your hands!

 

Be honest, there's a lot of ways that conflict should have gone. For starters, you could try placing blame on one individual. You could ask he be brought in for questioning. You could request that other Chapters come in, look at your evidence, and give their opinion. You could do a lot of things... but screaming "TRAITORS!" at the top of your lungs is only going to get yourself killed. That's what the Inquisition War was.

 

Not really. That Inquisitor in question can easily fabricate evidence agaisnt you if he so wants.

Even large, powerfull, old and honored chapters like the Space Wolves, who have many pacts with other chapters, don't cros the inquisition lightly.

The public oppinion is irelevant and always has been.

I seem to recall something about Kryptman being in serious trouble with other Inquisitors because of his policy of burning half a sector to 'starve' Hive Fleet Leviathan. Surely, if Inquisitors (especially older ones) are so immune to public opinion his actions would be accepted universally?

 

Spoken and unspoken rules exist and if nothing else, one should follow them out of respect of the household/locals/culture.

This sort of thing is everywhere. Take the Sisters of Battle - you can't honestly say that the Imperium deliberately made a law saying "You cannot have men under arms" and then in the same breath said "but women under arms is just fine!"

 

Somewhere, someone found a technicality, and argued the toss. By the time it came time to debate the matter, the Sisterhood was already around, established, and doing well for itself. It became an accepted fact.

 

How long would it take to bring any matter to account when you're dealing with a Chapter you can't even get direct Astropathic contact to? How long would it take to build a case, get it ratified, summon all involved parties and arrange the Grand Meeting of Important People to decide what should be done? Hell, most of the Space Marine armoury was built that way!

 

"This is Heretical! It's against the Omnissiah's will!"

"Tough. We're using it."

"You're not allowed!"

"So? We're using it."

"We will... we will complain to the highest levels!"

"That's nice."

*some time later.*

"After a thousand years of thinking about it, we've decided it's okay for you to use your Predator Annihilators, and we might start telling other Chapters how to make them."

"Nine hundred and ninety years ago we told half the Chapters in the Imperium how to make them, but it's good to know you agree with us at last."

 

 

To my mind, the Supernovas have a love-hate relationship with various aspects of the Imperium. Collectively, the Mechanicum, Inquisition, Ecclessiachy and the Supernovas themselves tend not to agree with each other. Oh, they agree on the big picture - that the Imperium is good, Chaos is bad, Aliens should be killed, etc. but they argue on the little things, like whether or not you have to say a prayer to your Vox Caster to make it work, or whether you actually have to view the Emperor as a God or not, or just how bendy rules are...

 

All of this is going on all the time, between all power groups, and within all power groups. The end result is that nobody likes how the Supernovas do things, and everyone has their own opinion on how the Chapter should behave (none of which agrees with what the other people think), but in the end 99.9999% of the time whatever individual is currently mad at the Chapter sits down and says "the Gene Tithe is given, they fight for the Imperium and there's nothing overtly heretical about their doctrine. I may not like it, but they've not actually broken any of the rules about what a Chapter can or cannot do..."

 

...and that's that. Every side constantly spies and scrutinises the other, even their 'allies'. Every side tries to manipulate the others for their own gain. The Supernovas have a rockier time of it than others, but there's a difference between rocking the boat and throwing people overboard.

[TrashMan]

Again, the way this plays out is in part due to how I view the Imperium as a whole; no-one, not even an Inquisitor, can throw down the Big E.T. at a Space Marine Chapter without very good reason. Like any other organisation, Chapters make political alliances. When you declare a Chapter Traitoris, you are damning their allies by extension. This means the Archmagos who supplies their weapons is now, potentially, a Traitor to the Imperium. This means the fleet yards who build their ships could be guilty of supplying Traitors the means to invade other worlds. It means any Chapter with close bonds to the one you're after is also, potentially, just as guilty.

This means that all these power groups are going to come rush in and demand answers, and if they don't like your answers they might not take your side. Worse still, they might take your enemy's side, and before you know it you've got a civil war on your hands!

 

Erm...no, it doens't work like that. You don't become traitors by proximity or association...not that easily anyway.

Fleet yards to be decalred traitors because they built ships for a chapter declared traitors? Never happened.

 

What is FAR more likely to happen is that all those power groups wash their hands of the "traitors".

 

 

Not really. That Inquisitor in question can easily fabricate evidence agaisnt you if he so wants.

Even large, powerfull, old and honored chapters like the Space Wolves, who have many pacts with other chapters, don't cros the inquisition lightly.

The public oppinion is irelevant and always has been.

I seem to recall something about Kryptman being in serious trouble with other Inquisitors because of his policy of burning half a sector to 'starve' Hive Fleet Leviathan. Surely, if Inquisitors (especially older ones) are so immune to public opinion his actions would be accepted universally?

 

They aren't so much immune as really, REALLY resistant. Kryptman performed exterminatus on half a sector. Your chapter - ANY chapter - doesn't even register compared to that.

 

 

Spoken and unspoken rules exist and if nothing else, one should follow them out of respect of the household/locals/culture.

This sort of thing is everywhere. Take the Sisters of Battle - you can't honestly say that the Imperium deliberately made a law saying "You cannot have men under arms" and then in the same breath said "but women under arms is just fine!"

 

Somewhere, someone found a technicality, and argued the toss. By the time it came time to debate the matter, the Sisterhood was already around, established, and doing well for itself. It became an accepted fact.

 

Apples and oranges.

You are not reading or dileberately misunderstanding.

 

 

To my mind, the Supernovas have a love-hate relationship with various aspects of the Imperium. Collectively, the Mechanicum, Inquisition, Ecclessiachy and the Supernovas themselves tend not to agree with each other.

 

So you made a chapter that pi**es off all of the 3 major powers in the IoM?

Do I even have to explain to you the absurdity of that?

 

Heck, I made a borderline heretic chapter, but at least it tries to place nice and kisses butts so at any one time it's on good realatiosn with at least 1 of the big 3, and as such has at least some protection.

 

As it is, your chapter reads more as a fanfic/ fantasy wish-fulfillment than anything else.

[Wargamer]

Wish fulfilment? Of course it's wish fulfilment - I wanted to make a Chapter that had X, Y and Z, and I did. I wanted the Chapter's story arc to include Events A, B and C and it does. How is that different to what everyone else does?

 

Oh, and someone earlier commented...

 

Just a small piece of advice: Stop taking people for complete retards and start accepting that your view can be flawed. Sure, others in this thread have been wrong, but you're being defensive as hell and it's not going to help you in many ways. Be a bit more open-minded, for your own sake.

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

The fact it took until page two of the comments to actually get a proper reply is probably why I am taking people for 'complete retards'.

 

Of all the feedback I've ever had on my Chapter as far as 'negative' criticism goes, this place takes the cake for being such a waste of god-damn time, and that includes people who have told me "I know you really want to keep the Chapter because you've been making it for about a decade, but you should probably just scrap everything you did before and do over fresh." At least that guy had the decency to A) not be a dick, and B ) actually did a good job of explaining why he felt his advice was worth following.

 

How, exactly, does waltzing in and saying "lolwut? No." help anyone?

[TrashMan]

Wish fulfilment? Of course it's wish fulfilment - I wanted to make a Chapter that had X, Y and Z, and I did. I wanted the Chapter's story arc to include Events A, B and C and it does. How is that different to what everyone else does?

 

For starters, most everyone tries to follow the lore and avoids the big no-no's.

They also compromise and alter their vision if necessary.

 

My own chapter changed significantly since I forst posted about it

[Dosjetka]

The fact it took until page two of the comments to actually get a proper reply is probably why I am taking people for 'complete retards'.

 

Of all the feedback I've ever had on my Chapter as far as 'negative' criticism goes, this place takes the cake for being such a waste of god-damn time, and that includes people who have told me "I know you really want to keep the Chapter because you've been making it for about a decade, but you should probably just scrap everything you did before and do over fresh." At least that guy had the decency to A) not be a dick, and B ) actually did a good job of explaining why he felt his advice was worth following.

 

How, exactly, does waltzing in and saying "lolwut? No." help anyone?

Are you fething kidding me?

 

Seriously.

 

You got replies (some detailed, some not so detailed, probably due to the fact that the member's mother tongue isn't English) from at least five members of the board and you're calling that not getting a proper reply? They were trying to show you why, in their opinion, Female Marines couldn't exist and some went as far as quoting official canon and you call that not getting a proper reply?

 

I can see exactly why you aren't getting much in the way of comments any more.

 

In the beginning, the comments weren't of much use, I agree, but as you approach end of page one, the replies were more than detailed! That's pretty insulting.

 

Anyway, I've got other things to do than waste any more of my time trying to reason with closed-minded, hyper defensive people.

 

I'm out.

 

Ludovic

[Phoros]

"You can't be Space Wolf successors because it won't work!"

"Okay... so my Chapter began as Space Wolves but due to genetic instability they had to refound as Ultramarines very soon after."

"NO! You can't be Space Wolf successors! IT WON'T WORK!"

And therein you commit several more fallacies. Chapters can't "re-found". Gene-seed is never cross-contaminated. If the geneseed was unstable, the chapter would just be destroyed, or perhaps re-absorbed into the Space Wolves.

[Acebaur]

This thread is in danger of being closed again if people don't cool down. Keep it civil people, I understand we are all passionate about our hobby, but there is no need to get nasty. I might also remind people that the continued discussion of female space marines will warrant disciplinary action.

[Wargamer]

You got replies (some detailed, some not so detailed, probably due to the fact that the member's mother tongue isn't English) from at least five members of the board and you're calling that not getting a proper reply? They were trying to show you why, in their opinion, Female Marines couldn't exist and some went as far as quoting official canon and you call that not getting a proper reply?

 

I spend a lot of time talking with people about 40K, be it around the club's gaming table or on other forums. I have never heard such vehement denial of my Chapter's concepts as I have here.

 

I have presented this to people who know their Astartes lore inside and out. This includes people who pore over every scrap of the Heresy novels and the Legions, as well as people who, like me, draw the bulk of what they know from Codices and Index Astartes articles. Mentioning the 'hot topics' of my Chapter doesn't bat an eyelid with these people. They don't argue the toss when you tell them you're making Space Wolf Succesors, and do you know why? It's not because they don't know about the Wolf Brothers, or that they're ignorant of Fluff that says no other Chapter was ever made, it's because they recognise that you shouldn't shoot down an idea for no good reason. They would probably advise against Space Wolf geneseed, and do so for the reasons mentioned, but if the writer in question is adamant about keeping that trait they would advise how best to do so. They would not continue to argue the toss long after they have lost.

 

What disappoints me, what has really left me feeling let down by this community, is the clique mindset. "This is how we believe 40K should be. No-one is allowed to think differently." I expected more from what is meant to be the place to go for Space Marine lore. Have I been hostile? Probably, but only because that hostility was presented to me first; I merely responded in kind.

 

"You can't be Space Wolf successors because it won't work!"

"Okay... so my Chapter began as Space Wolves but due to genetic instability they had to refound as Ultramarines very soon after."

"NO! You can't be Space Wolf successors! IT WON'T WORK!"

And therein you commit several more fallacies. Chapters can't "re-found". Gene-seed is never cross-contaminated. If the geneseed was unstable, the chapter would just be destroyed, or perhaps re-absorbed into the Space Wolves.

Why is re-founding off limits? I see it as a way of saving face; the Chapter's heraldry, iconography and beliefs, such as they are, are passed on to a new Chapter, who then act as though there was never any interruption.

 

Think of this - imagine, somehow, the Ultramarines were wiped out. I don't mean heavy losses, I mean for all intents and purposes the Chapter no longer existed. Somehow, by some freak occurence, every last Ultramarine in the Imperium dropped dead at once. Surely it is far better to rebuild the Chapter using a new Founding and let that force 'adopt' the old Ultramarine ways, carrying over as much of the old Geneseed as could be saved, than to admit defeat?

 

Yes, I am aware that this is a very different situation, and that we are dealing with a Chapter that barely had time to exist at all... but personally, I think of it as yet another way of saving face. Marines (or if nothing else, Marines as I see them) value things like honour very highly. For a Chapter to be wiped out is a terrible thing for all Astartes. Yes, this is a cheat, but it is a cheat that satisfies honour - the Supernovas never perished, and depending on just how quietly the 'swapping' of Geneseed was performed, it is possible that to the outside observer they simply recovered from whatever blight had afflicted them.

[Olis]

I think it is a pity things have devolved such in this thread, as I can see merit to the IA in question and although there have been points put forward that I almost certainly also would have, I would have been more... diplomatic. Until now I have refrained from commenting due to the arguing but now it seems that something must be said before a member is driven away.

 

I feel that other members should step in and re-appraise the presented material, whilst those involved up to now should step back, at least for the time being. Not only does this stop this from getting worse but it also means we can salvage this with new insight and constructive criticism. Does this sound fair, people?

[Acebaur]

Think of this - imagine, somehow, the Ultramarines were wiped out. I don't mean heavy losses, I mean for all intents and purposes the Chapter no longer existed. Somehow, by some freak occurence, every last Ultramarine in the Imperium dropped dead at once. Surely it is far better to rebuild the Chapter using a new Founding and let that force 'adopt' the old Ultramarine ways, carrying over as much of the old Geneseed as could be saved, than to admit defeat?

 

I do not think the Ultramarines would be re-built. Because they would not be the Ultramarines any longer any more than any of their successors would be Ultramarines. There have been SM chapters that have been destroyed and they were not rebuilt, why would any chapter be any different? In Rynn's World Pedro Kantor has to make decisions that will affect the fate of his chapter. He knows that if they all perish on that planet the Crimson Fists would be no more. Some among his ranks propose to make a final push against the orks, to sacrifice themselves in a final offensive to do as much damage as possible. Pedro decides against this and by his efforts they survive.

[Wargamer]

I do not think the Ultramarines would be re-built. Because they would not be the Ultramarines any longer any more than any of their successors would be Ultramarines. There have been SM chapters that have been destroyed and they were not rebuilt, why would any chapter be any different? In Rynn's World Pedro Kantor has to make decisions that will affect the fate of his chapter. He knows that if they all perish on that planet the Crimson Fists would be no more. Some among his ranks propose to make a final push against the orks, to sacrifice themselves in a final offensive to do as much damage as possible. Pedro decides against this and by his efforts they survive.

I admit, I don't exactly have a hard counter to that... at best, and this would require confirmation in terms of timeline, the 're-founding' was done as a way of saving face on behalf of Leman Russ.

 

Consider - let us assume the Wolf Brothers have, by this point, all gone to hell. I think Russ might have been alive when that happened; I admit, I don't actually know much about that Chapter. Anyway, the point is that the Wolf Brothers have gone critical, and this reflects badly on the Space Wolves. Perhaps Russ himself.

 

When the High Lords, or the Mechanicum, or whoever deals with this learns of another Wolf Successor going critical, they decide to keep it quiet. Losing the Supernovas would reflect poorly on the Space Wolves; it is an indirect insult to their genetic legacy. Thus, behind closed doors, an arrangement is made. The Supernovas will survive, whatever it takes, and exactly how will not be discussed. They're a long way away, after all; it's not like it's easy to go asking questions. Again, it may not be a practical explanation, but if Azrael can demand new Unforgiven Chapters, then perhaps someone high up in Terra can occasionally demand that a Chapter not be allowed to fail.

 

To pre-empt an obvious question - "why aren't these guys big players then?" The simple answer is the Chapter went out of fashion. The people who had political interest in a Wolf Successor surviving perished, or were replaced, or perhaps even found out about the deception. The galaxy moved on, and now that the transition was made the Supernovas were just one of a growing pool of Ultramarine successors, no longer of any particular interest. Hell, this is the Imperium we're talking about - maybe someone forgot they existed? They're out beyond the eastern edge of the Astronomicon; all it would take was a garbled message, or some other (all too common) misfortune at the worst possible time.

 

 

At the risk of it feeling like a cop-out, I did state in the Index Astartes that some doubt they were ever Space Wolf successors at all, so maybe that is the truth of the matter; that the Supernovas simply made up their supposed Fenrisian heritage! ;)

[Mattias]

Hi Wargamer,

 

I don't often respond to posts in this forum but I am a regular reader, firstly I would like to commend you on the level of effort that you have put into your IA project (mine is still a draft) and I think everyone can tell how passionate you are about it. This thread seems to have got quite heated so I thought it might be useful to highlight the forums guide to managing feedback from other members.

 

Establish Your Objective

What do you intend to do with this chapter? Are you trying to make the chapter fit fully into the background of 40k or with a bit of leeway canon-wise? Is your chapter going to be a parody chapter? Are you going to do female space marines, come what may? It's a very good idea to establish this as early as possible. If you do this, you can avoid a lot of unnecessary discussion and debate in your thread that may not help you develop your ideas. So if you're just making this chapter to your own ideas, without intending it to match the background greatly, just say so in your original post or as soon as possible in a reply.

 

Don't Ignore Critiques

At least acknowledge that people have made the effort to critique your work, even if you don't intend to take their advice. They've taken the time to try and help you develop your ideas. If you ignore the critiques that have been made, you're less likely to attract more people who are willing to look over your work and help you. All you need to do is post a few words to thank them for their time and thoughts.

 

Everyone Hates Me

Critique is generally negative; we will rarely say we think something is good. Generally, if we don't post a note on something, we think it's at least alright, if not good. We are a fan of the stick in this forum because it is what works. It is presumed that any chapter posted in Liber wants to fit the collective universe created by GW, so we'll all attempt to push background in that direction. There is little point going “cool”, that is what PC&A is for. Don’t be disheartened if all you are getting is “Change this bit” “This is wrong”, it is not that you are useless and can’t do anything right, it is we are giving critique and not a slap on the back. Unfortunately, text is always a cold medium.

 

Given that you have a number of areas which are viewed as controversial but which you wish to retain perhaps you should highlight those areas of the article that you would appreciate feedback on, in order to establish your objectives in posting. Is there a section that you are unsure of or that you think could use some work (presumably there must be as if you considered it to be perfect you would not have posted it here to ask for the communities feedback)?