Index Astartes: Supernovas

[DarkGuard]

At the risk of it feeling like a cop-out, I did state in the Index Astartes that some doubt they were ever Space Wolf successors at all, so maybe that is the truth of the matter; that the Supernovas simply made up their supposed Fenrisian heritage! ;)

 

I find this point particularly intriguing. Coming from a Dark Angels perspective I love intrigue and mystery in a Chapter, many do. Just look at the Blood Ravens, they don't know what geneseed they use, who they are descended from, but yet many enjoy postulating who they may have come from, many point to the Thousand Sons.

 

So long point short, a little bit of mystery goes a long way. ^_^

 

I really like the idea that their Fenrisian heritage could be very true. Or it could be that a Company of Supernovas saw the Space Wolves fighting in an engagement and admired the Chapter greatly, enshrining this idea in their legacy.

 

All in all, I found your IA quite an enjoyable read, and I do quite enjoy reading about other conflicts of the Inquisition after the Soul Drinkers. The keeping of geneseed seems a bit off, but it looks like you're building towards something else so once that comes to light it could make more sense.

 

It is little wonder that those Supernovans who volunteer for Assault Marine duty frequently die, but those who don't are fast-tracked to veteran status.

 

Just a quick question. I read that as those who don't volunteer for Assault Marine duty are more likely to become Vets. But then considered that it could mean that those who volunteer for Assault Marine duty and don't die are more likely to be fast tracked to Vet status. Which one is it? And maybe that could be a little clearer?

[Octavulg]

Wargamer

"Supr" means "Second". Their correct name is "The Second Stars that Fell."

 

 

First, it was a joke.

 

Second, repeating information that is contained within the sentence I am referencing is just insulting.

 

They are out there for a reason - by being off the map, it makes all this weirdness far more acceptable; face it, you'd believe anything about a place like Tasal, situated as it is below the parchment labelled "Heere Be Dragonnes".

 

The fact that people would believe them does not make it true. People believed in Prester John, too. Doesn’t make him real. Just meant he was far enough away it couldn’t be disproven.

 

Far beyond the light of the Astronomicon, in one of the farthest flung tendrils of the eastern spiral arm of the galaxy, lies a pangean world oribiting a blighted blue star. It is a world of hardships, where beasts both great and small roam the surface. It is a world where the skies are ruled by wyverns and the waters filled with kraken. It is a planet where even the trees themselves come alive to swallow up the living. It is Tasal, a Deathworld, and it is here that the Supr Novr Aestra - the Supernovas - call home.

 

I’ve never seen the appeal in the whole alternative name thing, myself. Among other things, it’s another thing the reader has to keep track of.

 

More to the point, the word super is inherently a little ridiculous (this is entirely the fault of Superman). Emphasizing it doesn’t really help.

 

If you really want to explain the name, why not just name them after the devastation such things produce?

 

The coast folk are hardy, but they are nothing compared to the Icelanders. Marauders from the southern realms, this matriarchical society is legendary across the entire supercontinent for their feral fury. Though technologically backward, their culture is prolific, and survives in the most impossible of conditions.

 

So, later on, when a guy from a society where men and women are equally likely to be warriors is apparently so unfamiliar with the matriarchal warriors who are legendary across the entire planet that he forgets to tell a ruler that only guys are an option…

 

Why does he do that, again? Because the idea that it was ignorance and unfamiliarity with the culture and with the concept of matriarchy seems rather thin after those bits.

 

Founding of the Supernovas

"You don't know who we are? Heed your myths and legends, man - they're all about us!"

-Unknown Supernovan addressing the Planetary Governor of Khlonas

 

Space Marines don’t use contractions. No, seriously. Very rarely (if ever) in written dialogue do Marines use contractions. I suspect it’s because it gives them gravitas.

 

The Novr Aestra:

According to their legends, Cernunnos, the Horned God,

 

References to contemporary Earth/culture should be subtle. This is just jarring – it’s a clear reference to the ancient Celts, and really hurts immersion.

 

Imperial History does, to an extent, agree with these tales; long ago, a small detachment of Space Wolves led an expeditionary fleet into the farthest corners of the galaxy. The reason is long lost, but it is claimed to be a matter of personal honour; one so great and so dire that even Leman Russ himself would not command the quest abandoned. Whatever the truth, the Space Wolves hunted their quarry to Tasal, and fought a great legion of Orks there. It was a long and bloody crusade that waged for so long, and so far flung from the rest of the galaxy, that the Heresy came and went by the time the Sons of Russ were contacted once more.

 

I’d get rid of the preceding paragraph, since it’s completely redundant with this one.

 

Second, the Heresy lasted for years (and the Scouring for years after that). If the Orks were so numerous that it took years to wipe them out, they’d surely be so numerous that they’d ruin the planet forever with their spores.

The only solution the High Lords could propose was to refound the Chapter - an idea that was initially rejected, but eventually allowed when the Novr Aestra dwindled to barely two hundred Astartes. Reforged in Ultramarine genestock, the Chapter prospered once more, though the 'new blood' did not take kindly to the Fenrisian style organisation and sought to implement a more orthadox, Codex structure. The resulting conflict of character would take many centuries to resolve, and would indeed outlive the last of the Fenrisian warriors. For the people of Tasal, all of this went unheeded - they were oblivious to the change, but did note that after a time the Angels of Death began to call themselves "Supr Novr" - The Second Stars. This Tasalian name became bastardised into the Low Gothic "Supernovas" by the Ultramarine-stock Astartes and Gothic speaking Chapter serfs, and the name stuck.

 

The idea that Space Marines mangled the pronunciation of their chapter name seems just strange. Most obviously, surely they’d just call themselves the Second Stars.

 

Second, chapters don’t get refounded. Consider the Star Scorpions or the Astral Knights.

Regarding the political reasons you suggest: it seems highly unlikely the Space Wolves would care, unless they thought someone was making the chapters fail. Indeed, it’s been suggested the Wolf Brothers were intended to fail – intentionally loaded with all the unstable Space Wolves.

 

This appears to be an administrative error on the part of an Adept sometime in M34, and has only in recent years been corrected. A formal complaint and request for his dismissal has been submitted to the Administratum.

 

…He’s dead.

 

Supernovan colours are not fixed;

 

Chapters do have assigned heraldry…

 

The Chapter also favours an unusual 'Terminus' pattern frag grenade as its main anti-personnel explosive. It is a cylindrical explosive, small enough to fit in the palm of the hand yet with an explosive force much larger than its tiny size suggests. The secrets to producing Terminus pattern frag grenades is known only to the Supernovas, and the few Chapters they choose to share their knowledge with - all attempts to acquire this information by the Adeptus Mechanicus have met with stern refusal, and if rumours are to be believed even open combat on occasion.

 

No. Engage in open warfare with the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus Mechanicus will do things like not give you those supplies you need (the supplies that in a previous paragraph you mention relying on them for).

 

Second, all frag grenades in the Imperium are tiny things that are more powerful than their size suggests.

 

Third, not sharing technology with the rest of the Imperium (or at least with the rest of the Adeptus Astartes) makes no sense when the Blood Angels do it, and is no more sensible now.

 

By and large, the Supernovas do not share the nature of their Cult with outsiders, particularly those of the Ecclesiarchy.

 

Them and every other chapter.

 

The Chapter Weyes:

Long ago, sometime in M33, the entire Supernovas Chapter embarked on a crusade against the enemies of Man. The history of this crusade is long and glorious, and the course it followed became known as the Novr Weye by the Chapter. Ten years later the Second Company followed that path again, and so, tentatively, the tradition of the Chapter Weyes was formed.

 

Make it either more or less like “Way”. Right now it’s like spelling your name with a “y” – everyone knows what you’re doing and all it really does is inconvenience everyone.

 

A Weye is any patrol route that follows the course of a notable crusade. Weyes can be as small as the Weye of the Shield, which reaches one world close to Tasal, or as vast as the Weye of the Dead, which passes through the Sol system and beyond to the western fringes of the galaxy.

 

Why would the chapter have crusaded through the Sol system, exactly? The Sol system has about a zillion defenders. It doesn’t get attacked much.

 

One such Serf was sent to the Icelands, and through ignorance failed to account for the matriarchic nature of these people. The Queen of the Ice had long known the Chapter would take her men folk, but when asked for Novitae she summoned a veritable army of child soldiers. At least six hundred Novitae, all female, answered the call.

 

This bit, as mentioned above, makes no sense in light of the fact that (apparently) the other major cultures on the planet have female warriors as well and that the Icelanders are infamous across the continent.

 

The Supernovas ideology places them as warrior-knights; men sworn to defend their people (ie: all of Humanity) no matter the cost. In this sense they are one of the more 'humanitarian' Chapters, and typically find common ground with Chapters who share their world view. Numbered amongst their allies are the Salamanders and Space Wolves; two Chapters rendowned for believing in Humanity as a whole.

 

While it’s not implausible, talk of how your chapter is close with the Space Wolves/was founded by Calgar’s cousin/knew this one guy once who had totally met the Emperor in a bar always feels somewhat like trying to piggyback off the glory of those official figures. At least to me.

 

* * *

 

Generally, this seems somewhat long. Not nearly as much so as some other chapters of which I have read, but still.

 

Second, the chapter doesn’t seem to have much of a personality.

[War Angel]

hey, so i read though and have a few comments to make, along with a few suggestions.

 

im going to start with some things i liked. While lengthy, i like the time you put into the homeworld. the setting of the varrious envirment and the culture. it really shows alot of dedication to youre chapter that youve created. the weyes was a nice touch, and reminds me of some kind of crusade. there's other things in there i liked, but i acctualy wrote this last, and i had to use notes to write everything that follows, so forgive me if ive forgotten, but i belive some are mentioned bellow

 

 

 

 

i noticed early on, just before the reforming of the chapter, that you refered to them as a legion. while i know that they where once of the space wolves legion, they themselves would not have been a legion at any point. im not sure if this was a misuse of the word, or if that was just how they refered to themselfs. another thing on that note, is if this was happening after they had denyed returning to the space wolves, im sure they would have at that point been refered to as a new chapter.

 

shortly after this, you mention the rebuilding of the chapter, using space marine geen stock. reading some of the post's (and i only read some as much of the post's said the same thing, so i tried to cut down on repetition) i belive you mentioned that you changed what codex you played thoughout youre years and wanted to have this reflected in the chapter. rebuilding the chapter using differnt gene stock just doesnt sound real to me, i would like to propose an alternitive to meet youre goal of explaining why you played with a differnt codex. youre chapter was being decimated in combat, perhaps desperate for survivale, youre chapter master's changed there tactica, and starting acting more as a codex chapter. the great thing is, if you want to return to codex space wolves, you can have some old timer wolf, who doesnt like the change, and vows to become the chapter master to change it back. want more drama and you can have him die off, but not before teaching some new guy about how great things used to be, and then HE goes on to take over.

 

 

when you talk about the marines mentoring young neophites, (which i like the idea of, as its used in modern military, though maybe not to the same extent) you mention that when a neophite dies, a mentor may enrage, breaking rank and reclessly charging the enemy. what fighting style is the chapter using during this? are they linning up in a gun line on the street? reading this i just feel that the marines are shoulder to shoulder, like in the old musket days. while this sometimes happens with marines, i think its more common that they are spread out a decent bit. perhaps you can write this in a manner that explains it more (IE. the marine abandons his position to hunt down/engage in close combat with the enemy. or explain that the chapter is more often then not in a gun line, and he's litteraly breaking rank)

 

i like youre lack of designated squads. the marines equip themselves however needed to compleet the task. i feel its worded in a way that is unnessisary, though i cant really tell you how. perhaps you can look over it and see how it feels to you? i think ommiting that they dont form up into dev squads is the problem, some times they just gear up to provide covering fire.

 

im not sure the empire cares if marines are adhearing to the dress codes set by the chapter. i think as long as there is some way to identify and say "oh look, its that chapter". it just feels like its waisted wording.

 

the grenades being a secret... why? im not sure what it does for youre chapter, and theres little explination as to why youre chapter is good at making them, its not like you live on an explosives making planet. it just comes of as "were cooler then you". i mean, its a grenade, does it say some where that no one else knows how to make them? one more thing to that note is, how are people even finding out you have these supper cool grenades they dont know about? i would think in the rush of it they wouldnt be paying attention. also why does the chapter keep it a secret? couldnt the rest of mankind use this?

 

im against the statement that youre rejection rate is one of the lowest, for the same reason of "were cooler then you". if you where to say it is surrprisingly low, that would be differnt. saying its one of the lowest makes me think the trainers arnt trying hard enough.

 

now i hope i dont get repremanded for this, because its borderline on the subject. but when you mention that thoes who reject the geneseed (and you spicificly say it to one group and not the other) you say that they are made into chapter serfs. you then say that the rejection is violent, and that the insides are often torn up. now im assuming that theres times where they manage to stop the rejecting persons from dieing, But i feel like you should mention that they are turned into serfs after the part about them exploding inside. (ie. thoes that are saved are made into serfs)

 

im not sure about a chapter wearing another chapters colors. this just seems weird to me. not saying you cant, but i think you need to really really explain this. same thing for the exchange programs, you never mention what they are, but a good guess tells me that these are things that i wouldnt see happening. it breaks me out of the story and back into reality.

 

i laughed about the tea party, and while i find it a waist of time, i have nothing against it being there. though you should know that the only purpose it serves is to set a personality to youre chapter master

 

 

im going to step back from the inquisition war, as that all sounded very excessive to me. personaly i hate it when they make movies where they make the goverment the bad guys behind varrious desasters (such as in resident evil) so i woulnt cloud it with my already biased oppinion.

[Phoros]

This appears to be an administrative error on the part of an Adept sometime in M34, and has only in recent years been corrected. A formal complaint and request for his dismissal has been submitted to the Administratum.

 

…He’s dead.

That's the joke. And it's actually quite funny.

[PorridgeMeister]

This thread is in danger of being closed again if people don't cool down. Keep it civil people, I understand we are all passionate about our hobby, but there is no need to get nasty. I might also remind people that the continued discussion of female space marines will warrant disciplinary action.

 

I'm quoting this now with the intention to fully comply with your request and be as civil as possible.

 

I spend a lot of time talking with people about 40K, be it around the club's gaming table or on other forums. I have never heard such vehement denial of my Chapter's concepts as I have here.

 

What disappoints me, what has really left me feeling let down by this community, is the clique mindset. "This is how we believe 40K should be. No-one is allowed to think differently." I expected more from what is meant to be the place to go for Space Marine lore. Have I been hostile? Probably, but only because that hostility was presented to me first; I merely responded in kind.

 

I'll think you'll find that we presented several strong guidelines such as "don't do this and don't do that, but this blah blah" as a sticky in this sub forum of the website. Over the many years since this board has been running, these have been refined in the greatest way possible - by allsorts of people with a great deal of passion and a lot of knowledge helping people with problems again and again. Contravening these guidelines has become a great taboo because we probably have the highest standards of conformity to the fluff on the Internet. To quote the excellent Ace Debonair quoting someone equally excellent, "the Liber is not the production line, but quality control", the meaning of which is self-evident.

 

When you posted your IA, we approached it with the greatest possible readiness to assist you, as always, assuming that you had taken into account our pearls of wisdom related only from facts only gleaned from GW's canon. Thousands of IAs have been posted on here throughout the years and we have always offered the best advice and support we can to improve them and we have helped turn poorly written fluff-contradicting articles into some truly special IAs. The reason we continue to post on this topic is that the canon of Warhammer 40,000 is something that matters to us deeply, but just as much as helping other people, yourself included.

 

By definition, you have started this thread with the intention of needing help and the IA contained herein contains a good deal of these fluff landmines that we have clearly established as silly, impractical or just downright nonsensical conventions to be avoided. Yet you still posted your work on this board. You are faced with comments pointing out this fact to you and you wonder why people are being so "hostile". You then respond by calling us, and I quote you fully, "complete retards". Now, we have been and still are willing to help you, on the basis that you are prepared to accept a few things and realize that our criticisms are fully intended to be constructive. If you continue to refute all of our points with such behavior, and ignore our advice, you are likely to find yourself alone here very quickly. If you do indeed do so, I see little to no place for this thread in the Liber.

 

@Phoros: :P

[Wargamer]

Not quoting anyone directly here... but going to summarise some actions. In no order:

 

> The Terminus, re-reading it, was described incorrectly. It's supposed to be a disk shaped explosive (the idea is based off a Rogue Trader description of grenades, which make it sound like a Space Marine could shove a dozen of them into his pocket with room to spare). I've also altered the description a bit - they don't own the only STC (they have a 'copy' of it), and eventually they agreed to share it with the Forge Worlds that supply their Chapter. However, they still haven't given the STC to the Mechanicum.

 

> Tidied up the bit about Marines avenging the Novitae.

 

> Tidied up the bit about recruitment rates; it is "comparatively low". The trait is also indirectly applied to every Death World used to recruit from, since that is what I was trying to get at in the first place; Death Worlds are really good places to find potential Marines!

 

> The Adepta's "tissue rejection" is clarified - now, they were not actually given Geneseed, but 'tested' with sample genetic data to confirm that it would take hold. This was enough to rule out half the aspirants. "Serfdom" is also going to be changed... I need to straighten out my terminology here.

 

> Linking to the above, I should probably make clear that I tend to use 'Serf' as a catch-all name for any moral servant of the Chapter. Depending on how vague you want to be, this could well include plenty of people (ship crews primarily) who have never even set foot on my Chapter's homeworld.

In all likelihood, the Adepta's recruitment is down to poor communication. After all, when the Supernovas say they want "Novitae", they could mean either their Novitae - Space Marine Scouts, or Tasalian Novitae - mortal soldiers in training. Likewise, the actual definition varies from place to place; in some areas, the title is used only to refer to high born (Knightly Squire equivalents), whilst elsewhere any young man or woman who is learning how to be a warrior is a Novitae.

There is a great deal of vaguery, and whilst the Icelanders are known, they are not necessarily known in detail - everyone knows 300 Spartans killed a million Persians, but is it not far more likely that in reality they had help, and probably a lot less enemies to kill?

 

As a final point, they are legendary for being feral warriors, not for being a Matriarchy (although that may come up; the more likely the place is to be raided by Icelanders, the more likely you are to get accurate information). Still, a little clarification has been done there.

 

> I'm well aware the tea ceremony is useless, but I saw the idea and (with permission of the guy who made the Blazing Kitsunes), borrowed it. It seems Ximo was as amused by it as I was. B)

 

> On the Weye of the Dead (the one that goes through Sol). A Crusade route does not have to fight every step of the way, you know. The Supernovas who founded the Weye of the Dead went a long, long way, and upon reaching Terra they most likely decided to drop by for one of many reasons. Perhaps they needed resupply and went to Mars? Perhaps they sought spiritual guidance on Terra? Hell, it's Mars - maybe they had Techmarines to pick up / drop off?

 

 

Finally, as suggested, I'll have a go at providing "Objectives" for the Chapter...

 

...well, basically, the objective is to give me a Chapter I can write stories about. I prefer Marine fiction to be small forces - a squad or two, rather than Company strength. I don't know why, but Space Marines always feel more like Space Marines when it's three of them vs an army, rather than thirty.

I am also not a big fan of Space Marines like Leandros. I much prefer Marines who will laugh and joke and argue and insult each other and generally behave like real people. They probably shouldn't do that in battle, but during down times, or lulls in fighting, the last thing I expect a typical Marine to do is start telling everyone in earshot what the Codex Astartes thinks they should be doing right now.

The Female Marines, as you may have guessed, are a fixed part of the Chapter. I had a lot of fun creating them, and two of them in particular wound up creeping into more and more of my story ideas until they cemented themselves as 'canonical' members of my Chapter.

 

As the Mk VI armour thing suggests, I like older aspects of 40K. I like to try and hint at this whenever possible, hence why the Terminus is based on 1st Edition era frag grenades, and Assault Marines are considered a 'suicide squad'. For the record, there are no Storm Ravens in my universe, and "Deathwind" pods can't carry troops - there's no room on account of all those big guns. How this sort of thing can be brought across in an IA article I'm not sure, but there it is; I like the idea of a Chapter that sounds as though it could have been made for Rogue Trader.

[TrashMan]

What the hell keeps happening to my posts?

 

I outlined an idea of how to make the Adepta more plausible but it's gone now.

 

GAh..Here goes (again):

 

- Fighting the AdMech is definetly out. This thing has to go if you want to have a believable chapter.

 

You really have to make it so that the CM had no choice. Life or death situation. But it's hard to engineer ones. Teh ebst I cna think off is is the chapter was stranded (warp storm, crashed ship - this is necessary to shut down off-world solutions) and there are no viable males on the planet (for whatever reason) so to keep the chapter going he tries females.

It still feels convoluted, but it makes more sense at least.

 

 

the final problem is your chapter apothacary finding a solution to something the E and best Magoses could not solve in 10 milelnia.

[Brother Tyler]

What the hell keeps happening to my posts?

 

I outlined an idea of how ot make the Adepta more plausible but it's gone now.

You brought up issues on which direction has been given that they will no longer be discussed, and you used an example that was inappropriate, so I removed your reply. Your replies aren't the only ones that have been edited, as the continued moderator presence (in an official capacity) in this topic indicates.

 

In fact, you should seriously consider whether or not your continued participation is providing value. I've had to edit at least two of your replies because you've been unable to drop the subject and you continue to post in an aggressive manner that is exacerbating the situation. It's important to be able to recognize when your efforts are helping the situation, or if they're just hurting the situation. And I'm not talking about your intent. I'm talking about the actual impact. If you've concluded that the author is not responding to your input, is there any real value in continuing to provide that input?

 

Remember - nobody ever "wins" arguments on the Internet, and the spectacle of heated Internet debates is the source of much wry amusement to onlookers. Ultimately, this is Wargamer's DIY and Wargamer is the only one that might benefit/suffer from the end result. Anyone that doesn't like what Wargamer chooses to do is free to provide input and suggestions, but if Wargamer decides to do/not do something, that's Wargamer's choice and nobody else's opinion on the matter (including my own) is moot.

 

It's best to recognize when input is no longer of any value and simply drop out of the discussion at that time.

 

On forbidden subjects and inappropriate examples, you're walking a very fine line that could very quickly result in disciplinary action. Consider this your last chance (and that goes for everyone on both sides of the various issues).

 

=][=

[Wargamer]

- Fighting the AdMech is definetly out. This thing has to go if you want to have a believable chapter.

I have done some tweaking to some of the areas that implied open warfare, to emphasise they are speculation only. There is tension, yes, but I like that - I feel it is more fitting to the 40K universe to have every power group slightly at odds with every other power group. If nothing else, it explains how every other week my Chapter winds up fighting another Imperial faction. B)

 

I recall saying somewhere else that the Imperium has a lot of "guidelines" for Space Marine Chapters, but only three rules: No building a Legion, no building an Empire, no consorting with Chaos. Whatever else a Chapter does is at best nobody else's business, and at worst a matter for another Chapter to come in and have a talk about what's going on. A Chapter could quite happily ritualistically snort the powered skulls of dead babies for all the Imperium cares, so long as they are deemed not to be doing so as part of a Chaos ritual, as long as they only claim sovereignty over their home planet (or possibly system), and as long as they are approximately 1,000 Marines strong, plus allowable support elements.

 

An analogy for you is this: Imagine a Space Marine world has members of the population that are technically human (ie: according to a standard 'genetic purity' test the Imperium employs), but not recognised as Humans by some higher power. Recruiting them would cause controvery since they are 'not humans', but from a technical standpoint the Chapter is well within its rights to do that.

 

You really have to make it so that the CM had no choice. Life or death situation. But it's hard to engineer ones. Teh ebst I cna think off is is the chapter was stranded (warp storm, crashed ship - this is necessary to shut down off-world solutions) and there are no viable males on the planet (for whatever reason) so to keep the chapter going he tries females.

It still feels convoluted, but it makes more sense at least.

That is difficult... particularly as any event so dire would pretty much wipe out the homeworld full stop. I do certainly agree that is a 'better' justification, it's just one I cannot implement believably.

 

the final problem is your chapter apothacary finding a solution to something the E and best Magoses could not solve in 10 milelnia.

Again, I think people are seriously misinterpreting what I am saying here.

 

The Geneseed remains untouched. At no point is that changed;

 

Yes, one could argue then that only getting 20 Scouts out of 300 Aspirants is bad, but I don't recall ever seeing any guidelines as to what is an 'acceptable' rate of loss / failure within Aspirants (ie: those who have begun receiving Geneseed). I've got it in my head from somewhere that one in ten is about right.

 

Just for the sake of a disclaimer: I do appreciate any ways to 'fix' how the Adepta came to be in the first place, and for the record I don't have an issue with Trashman's posts.

What I want, at present, is to make sure that people who give that suggestion are on the same page as I am, and understand the 'unwritten rules' that apply to how I choose to see 40K working. I think a lot of the problem that arose from this subject is a clash of ideology on that ground; no idea, no matter how well presented, is going to be accepted if one person think's it's an apple, and the other an orange.

 

Again, to use an example, a Grey Knight to me is only ever deployed in Terminator Armour, armed with a Nemesis Force Halberd. His ranged weapon is either a 3-shot bolter on the blade, or a Storm Bolter on the wrist. That is the norm, and no other equipment type will be accepted, or acknowledged. This means I automatically reject pretty much everything in the current Grey Knight Codex. This also means that if someone talks to me about Grey Knights and mentions them using Power Armour, they are on a very different page to me, and before I can even think of giving them guidance, I need to change my way of thinking to fit theirs, or convince them why I think the way I do. This is usually the messy part of any discussion, but I think we're starting to get past that, meaning we're starting to see posts which I can use.

[TrashMan]

That is difficult... particularly as any event so dire would pretty much wipe out the homeworld full stop. I do certainly agree that is a 'better' justification, it's just one I cannot implement believably.

 

Warp storm don't destroy worlds as far as I know. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but they can effectively trap a planet or sector, preventing any travel for decades or centuries.

 

 

I have done some tweaking to some of the areas that implied open warfare, to emphasise they are speculation only. There is tension, yes, but I like that - I feel it is more fitting to the 40K universe to have every power group slightly at odds with every other power group. If nothing else, it explains how every other week my Chapter winds up fighting another Imperial faction.

 

That sounds better...but if your chapter is constantly picking fights with imperial factions, it wouldn't survive for long. Not only does that make it too easy to brand the chapter traitors (and constantly fighting IoM forces is a very compleing argument), but you tend to step on far too many toes. B)

 

 

What I want, at present, is to make sure that people who give that suggestion are on the same page as I am, and understand the 'unwritten rules' that apply to how I choose to see 40K working.

 

Since you did specifiy this was your own head-canon (technicly tackign place in your own universe) then whatever we say don't matter anyway. ;)

[PorridgeMeister]

Yes, one could argue then that only getting 20 Scouts out of 300 Aspirants is bad, but I don't recall ever seeing any guidelines as to what is an 'acceptable' rate of loss / failure within Aspirants (ie: those who have begun receiving Geneseed). I've got it in my head from somewhere that one in ten is about right

 

@second point: Just a pointer - you might want to change the figures there because I remember a quote from an old C:SM (4th Ed, I think) that states that the failure rate is much higher than that - will find the exact quote later.

[TrashMan]

I do belive that only 2% of men qualify..or something like that.

[Wargamer]

Warp storm don't destroy worlds as far as I know. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but they can effectively trap a planet or sector, preventing any travel for decades or centuries.

However, if the Chapter is trapped inside a Warp Storm...

 

...hmm... I was about to say "they can't go anywhere to fight, so don't need 'emergency recruits', but a Warp Storm is a typical precursor to a Chaos incursion, yes?

 

It would require rejigging the timeline, but if Tasal was attacked by Chaos, the Chapter borderline wiped out and the Adepta came about as part of the rebuilding (they were desperate to get back up to fighting strength as fast as humanly possible), that might work. It also gives yet another explanation as to why an Inquisitor was so ready to believe the Chapter would (and could) wipe out an entire planet; he thinks they were turned by the Warp, no matter what the official post-battle Ordo Malleus investigation thinks!

 

 

That sounds better...but if your chapter is constantly picking fights with imperial factions, it wouldn't survive for long. Not only does that make it too easy to brand the chapter traitors (and constantly fighting IoM forces is a very compleing argument), but you tend to step on far too many toes. ;)

You probably got that I was refering to tabletop games, but just in case you didn't that is what I meant about fighting Imperials. :cuss

 

@second point: Just a pointer - you might want to change the figures there because I remember a quote from an old C:SM (4th Ed, I think) that states that the failure rate is much higher than that - will find the exact quote later.

I've got that somewhere to hand. I'll have a look and see if I can spot it as well.

[War Angel]

I haven't had time to retread this, but every time you explain somthing to some one, keep in mind that what you're explaining might not have been explained properly in you're main article. You should be adding these comments into it.

 

Again, haven't read it again, so if you're doing this then my apologies

[Wargamer]

True. The tricky part is working out how to do that in a way that doesn't break flow, or otherwise bog the whole thing down.

[Dosjetka]

Maybe just ask the mods to close this thread, take your time to re-read your whole thing, correct anything that needs to be changed, etc... and in a couple of days time, open a brand new thread with a new and revised IA? I think this thread has already been quite cluttered.

 

Alternatively, copy/paste all of the useful comments onto a word document and ask the mods (nicely) to wipe out all of the posts (so no new thread but it feels like one)?

 

My two pence worth.

 

Ludovic

[War Angel]

Yeah, this thread is kinda riddled with anger. I almost didn't want to post just because I thought you might go mama bear on me

[Octavulg]

Phoros

That's the joke. And it's actually quite funny.

 

It's not, though. It suggests his Space Marines are idiots. Insanely inefficient imperial governent is comedy. Insanely inefficient Space Marines is tragedy.

 

* * *

Wargamer

> The Terminus, re-reading it, was described incorrectly. It's supposed to be a disk shaped explosive (the idea is based off a Rogue Trader description of grenades, which make it sound like a Space Marine could shove a dozen of them into his pocket with room to spare). I've also altered the description a bit - they don't own the only STC (they have a 'copy' of it), and eventually they agreed to share it with the Forge Worlds that supply their Chapter. However, they still haven't given the STC to the Mechanicum.

 

Forge Worlds are the Mechanicum, at least to some extent. They may not have disseminated it across the galaxy, but if a Forge World has it the Mechanicus does.

 

I do kinda wonder what it adds to the chapter, really. Shiny toys are rarely a substitute for character.

 

> Linking to the above, I should probably make clear that I tend to use 'Serf' as a catch-all name for any moral servant of the Chapter. Depending on how vague you want to be, this could well include plenty of people (ship crews primarily) who have never even set foot on my Chapter's homeworld.

 

Why would they send people unfamiliar with the home world to the home world on a semi-diplomatic mission?

 

In all likelihood, the Adepta's recruitment is down to poor communication. After all, when the Supernovas say they want "Novitae", they could mean either their Novitae - Space Marine Scouts, or Tasalian Novitae - mortal soldiers in training. Likewise, the actual definition varies from place to place; in some areas, the title is used only to refer to high born (Knightly Squire equivalents), whilst elsewhere any young man or woman who is learning how to be a warrior is a Novitae.

 

In that case, sending someone unprepared and unfamiliar makes even less sense...

 

There is a great deal of vaguery, and whilst the Icelanders are known, they are not necessarily known in detail - everyone knows 300 Spartans killed a million Persians, but is it not far more likely that in reality they had help, and probably a lot less enemies to kill?

 

We still know they were dudes, though. :lol:

 

And know a lot of their sarcastic remarks. Indeed, I'd expect a matriarchal society to end up being (in legend) composed entirely of ten foot tall women who ate the hearts of the men they slew, saving captives only for snoo-snoo.

[Gree]

I am also not a big fan of Space Marines like Leandros. I much prefer Marines who will laugh and joke and argue and insult each other and generally behave like real people. They probably shouldn't do that in battle, but during down times, or lulls in fighting, the last thing I expect a typical Marine to do is start telling everyone in earshot what the Codex Astartes thinks they should be doing right now.

 

Leandros is an Ultramarine and acts like one would expect an Ultramarine to do. He sticks to the rules and follows protocol. It’s what they do. In that respect Leandros is a ‘’good ‘’ Ultramarine and Titus a ‘’bad’’ Ultramarine.

 

Space Marines likewise are living weapons far removed from humanity. The Deathwatch FFG sourcebooks contain interesting viewpoints on how to roleplay Astartes if you are interested.

 

Of course don’t let that stop you from simply writing your chapter as one of the more lax Space Wolf-esque Chapters who aren’t quite vanilla.

[Wargamer]

It's not, though. It suggests his Space Marines are idiots. Insanely inefficient imperial governent is comedy. Insanely inefficient Space Marines is tragedy.

You have clearly never read "Prospero Burns." The running theme of that is "why didn't you tell me this?" followed by the Space Marine reply: "You never asked."

 

What does my Chapter care if the Administratum can't do their job?

 

Leandros is an Ultramarine and acts like one would expect an Ultramarine to do. He sticks to the rules and follows protocol. It’s what they do. In that respect Leandros is a ‘’good ‘’ Ultramarine and Titus a ‘’bad’’ Ultramarine.

To be honest, Leandros struck me (and my friends) as a "screw you" to people who think that is how Ultramarines work. He is barely worthy of his squad position, and yet he thinks he has the right to second guess and question his Captain throughout, and then right at the end of the game he is delivered a monumental bitchslap that is akin to being told "You are a failure at life."

 

Reading Know No Fear that belief is only strengthened; Guilliman would turn in his stasis field if he knew what Leandros did.

 

Put simply, Marines who are nothing but things that kill other things is dull. Whilst Marines should indeed be amazing warriors, there should be more to their personality than "I am a walking gun."

[Octavulg]

You have clearly never read "Prospero Burns." The running theme of that is "why didn't you tell me this?" followed by the Space Marine reply: "You never asked."

 

If Dan Abnett makes his characters morons for cheap laughs, that's really his business. Doesn't make it a good idea.

 

What does my Chapter care if the Administratum can't do their job?

 

In which case why would they bother complaining about the incompetent millenia after his death? :(

 

Your chapter complaining about them after he's dead just makes them stupid (yes, even if it's a joke). Them getting a letter apologizing for the error several millennia later might work a bit better.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

That is difficult... particularly as any event so dire would pretty much wipe out the homeworld full stop. I do certainly agree that is a 'better' justification, it's just one I cannot implement believably.

 

Warp storm don't destroy worlds as far as I know. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but they can effectively trap a planet or sector, preventing any travel for decades or centuries.

More like an all of the above. It's Chaos, after all - Warp Storms can eat worlds (like the one in Dawn of War - Chaos Rising), turn them into daemon worlds, or just cut the system off for a while as you said.

[Gree]

To be honest, Leandros struck me (and my friends) as a "screw you" to people who think that is how Ultramarines work. He is barely worthy of his squad position, and yet he thinks he has the right to second guess and question his Captain throughout, and then right at the end of the game he is delivered a monumental bitchslap that is akin to being told "You are a failure at life."

 

Reading Know No Fear that belief is only strengthened; Guilliman would turn in his stasis field if he knew what Leandros did.

 

The main trait of the Ultramarines is that they follow the Codex Astartes strictly. Leandros questioning Titus is a natural thing to do when your leader openly flaunts chapter doctrine. An Ultramarine who flaunts the Codex Astartes is like an Iron Hand who hates bionics or a White Scar who hates bikes. An Ultramarine who flaunts the Codex get's exilled, like Uriel Ventris did.

 

Whatever Guilliman expected of his Ultramarines Pre-Heresy does not really apply to the Post-Heresy Ultramarines, whose main trait is following the Codex strictly as possible. If the video game writers wanted to create a maverick Ultramarine Captain to contrast things, then that's their right.

 

Put simply, Marines who are nothing but things that kill other things is dull. Whilst Marines should indeed be amazing warriors, there should be more to their personality than "I am a walking gun."

 

It is dull yes, but it's part of how they are described in the fluff. Some writers can make that work, and others can't.

[Wargamer]

In which case why would they bother complaining about the incompetent millenia after his death? :P

 

Your chapter complaining about them after he's dead just makes them stupid (yes, even if it's a joke). Them getting a letter apologizing for the error several millennia later might work a bit better.

You seem to have missed the point - the Index Astartes is not written by my Chapter, it is written about my Chapter. The joke (which I'm sorry to say, you missed) is that the Adept compiling the information on the armour has spotted this error, noted it was made by someone who has been dead for 7,000 years, and followed standard proceedure - report the guy as being in the wrong.

[Octavulg]

Perhaps because you didn't express it clearly?

 

"A formal complaint and request for his dismissal has been submitted to the Administratum."

 

If an Administratum Adept is the one who found the error, he wouldn't say he'd submitted it to the Administratum. He'd say he submitted it to Central Processing, or to the Master of the Department of Editorial Corrections, or wherever.

 

If it's supposed to be someone outside the chapter recording the IA, it's still not clear who made the complaint (and when it isn't clear what an IA is talking about, the default assumption is that it's talking about the chapter).

 

You could achieve the same effect with "A formal notice of reprimand has been attached to the Adept's personnel file." It'd be clearer.