Index Astartes: Supernovas

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

Octavulg: He very well could, but it strikes me that he probably won't, because he's likely feel that this is rather more bother and trouble than it's really worth over a peripheral bit of humor with no real bearing on the IA or the chapter proper.

 

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As regards the chapter's frag grenades, this struck me more than a little awry too until I heard the explanation of his intent with them. Since his real goal is to give a nod to the nostalgia-era 40k elements he's fond of, he tries to make mention of an unusual/distinctive gadget reminiscent of a counterpart bit of wargear that existed in an old version of the game. Since the game's changed since then, he needs to justify this thing existing but not being in the hands of just about everyone everywhere (which'd make it ubiquitous enough to have been mentioned in recent fluff by now). What does he choose? Overt refusal by the Chapter to cough up the blueprints to the AdMech.

 

Is that a particularly good choice to fulfill the justification requirement? Not really, for reasons that have been pointed out. But the core idea of giving a nod to the hobby's past through specialist wargear doesn't merit excision, just the overt, chip-on-shoulder combativeness of the Supernovas in keeping it for themselves. If the justification is made more subtle; say, the Supernovas make a point of letting the knowledge that such grenades exist slip from their minds when they're around techpriests, or more likely, that the Chapter makes it look like they're going through the motions while actually taking advantage of the Imperium's monolithic bureaucracy to make sure that nothing substantive is likely to reach a Magos' hands within the millenium (and will hopefully have been forgotten about by then) that works quite well enough for a suitable revision.

 

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I would steer very clear of warp storms. They too are mentioned in almost any reference guide for writing DIY chapters, and not in a particularly complimentary way. I agree with those articles' general analysis- they have been very much overdone and used as a magic hand-wave for too many incredulous things, and have therefore become too forced a cliche to be beneficial to Wargamer's IA here.

 

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Trashman

 

- Trying to resist the AdMech is beyond foolish - ever heard of the Soul Drinkers Chapter? It didn't go too well for them, even though they were in the right.

It can and has been done by space marine chapters over and over again, in numerous different ways. The real question here is whether Wargamer's portrayal of how the Supernovas are going about it needs improvement, to which the answer is admittely "Yeah."

 

- Your Chapter had an actual war with the Inquisition and they only brought what 200 Astartes, a similar number of SoB and several regiments of Guard? That is a tiny force if the Inquisitor was trying to bring an entire Chapter to heel, and they would have surely declared you Extremis Traitoris and committed you to exterminatus!

 

The Inquisition is fractious and labyrinthine. When the weight of an Inqusition in consensus is leveled against somebody? Doom's come knocking, to be sure, and the only question is how long it takes him to get in the door.

 

When one inquisitor takes action his colleagues and superiors think is out of line, then that one inquisitor causes mayhem until other Inquisitors find him and shut him down- or until his opponent shuts him down and then the Inquisitors who didn't agree with him come along and mop up. In that kind of situation, you have plenty of wiggle room for a Big Incident that then gets more or less swept under the rug rather than resulting in the irrevocable damnation of the chapter that pissed off the lone Inquisitor. You will note that the Supernova's conflict was very eminently this, and not all-out war against the Inquisition as a whole.

 

- Being Space Wolf Successors, which is just stupid because they have no successors. Period. There is no arguing with that. You can go ahead and find other DIY Chapters posted on the Liber with Space Wolf geneseed, but there are no outright successors that the Liber's denizens have not condemned as fluff heretics!

The Chapter are not SW successors. At absolute most, they are Ultramarines successors whose development was influenced by the semi-mythical Chapter they were allegedly created to replace, which if it existed was an attempt at a Space Wolves successor that, appropriately, was a miserable failure which got hushed up.

 

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I am an A2 Latin student and will be studying Classics at a "Russell group" university next year. Supernova definitely does not mean "the Second Stars that fell" - it means literally "beyond new". I strongly recommend that you do not try to romanticize an already silly name.

I'm sure you're very proud of your future Latin degree, but if you were paying attention you would have understood that the etymology Wargamer gave is intended as a fictional back-etymology from the corrupted Low Gothic dialect spoken on his chapter's Homeworld. As to the name itself, there are canon Chapters out there with far, far more silly names than "Supernovas." Just off the top of my head we have the ever so intimidating Rainbow Warriors, the Fiery Lions, the Space Sharks, and the Star Scorpions. Even if you don't find any of those as silly sounding as I do, there's a canon chapter out there called the Novamarines, so I really don't think you have any valid reasons to be attacking the name of Wargamer's chapter.

[PorridgeMeister]

It can and has been done by space marine chapters over and over again, in numerous different ways. The real question here is whether Wargamer's portrayal of how the Supernovas are going about it needs improvement, to which the answer is admittedly "Yeah."

 

X

 

The Inquisition is fractious and labyrinthine. When the weight of an Inqusition in consensus is leveled against somebody? Doom's come knocking, to be sure, and the only question is how long it takes him to get in the door.

When one inquisitor takes action his colleagues and superiors think is out of line, then that one inquisitor causes mayhem until other Inquisitors find him and shut him down- or until his opponent shuts him down and then the Inquisitors who didn't agree with him come along and mop up. In that kind of situation, you have plenty of wiggle room for a Big Incident that then gets more or less swept under the rug rather than resulting in the irrevocable damnation of the chapter that pissed off the lone Inquisitor. You will note that the Supernova's conflict was very eminently this, and not all-out war against the Inquisition as a whole.

 

Obviously not, otherwise the Chapter would not exist to this day. X

 

The Chapter are not SW successors. At absolute most, they are Ultramarines successors whose development was influenced by the semi-mythical Chapter they were allegedly created to replace, which if it existed was an attempt at a Space Wolves successor that, appropriately, was a miserable failure which got hushed up.

 

I'll think you'll find that, at least at the time of posting, Wargamer had stated in the IA that they tried creating the Chapter's marines using Space Wolf geneseed, but that the attempt failed and they had to patch it up with Ultramarines geneseed.

 

I'm sure you're very proud of your future Latin degree, but if you were paying attention you would have understood that the etymology Wargamer gave is intended as a fictional back-etymology from the corrupted Low Gothic dialect spoken on his chapter's Homeworld...so I really don't think you have any valid reasons to be attacking the name of Wargamer's chapter.

 

There's no need for that patronizing and rather aggressive tone, I was merely stating that I had specialist knowledge of the subject and things like this bug me because there are a lot of people on the Internet who misquote and misuse Latin on a regular basis. I find this quite frustrating to be honest and I could not judge whether he was one of those people - you accuse me of being ignorant of the fact that it was from this made-up language, yet I think you'll find that I (like most people in this thread) was too caught up in the some of the more concerning aspects of Wargamer's IA.

 

Of course, I do now recognize my mistake. Besides that does negate the fact that it is a quite silly name, at least in my opinion, because "supernova" is the name of an astronomical phenomenon involving the death of a star, as I'm sure you are aware. Can you imagine two marines discussing this with their literal Chapter names? Brother Jimmy of the Blowing-up Dying Stars says to Brother Bob of the People Killers? Which to you sounds more like that which a Space Marine would have? Although I have to admit that it could be worse - there was a Chapter called the Orbital Beacons a few months ago on here.

 

Anyway, Daegar Helsir, it seems rather odd that you took the time to pick out this single response out of the many on the thread. Just an observation.

 

Finally, Wargamer, you still seem not to have addressed the fact that your Chapter actively stole the geneseed and equipment of another Chapter and then used said gubbins to create more marines. Can you imagine the Space Wolves stealing some geneseed from the Blood Angels to create marines? It wouldn't be surprising if a Space Wolf suddenly went into the Black Rage? Not to mention that is tantamount to declaring war on your Brothers, who are you supposed to help to the death.

 

Need to recharge my laptop. Haven't finished responding to points raised that are marked with an X.

[Watcher in the Dark]

Of course, I do now recognize my mistake. Besides that does negate the fact that it is a quite silly name, at least in my opinion, because "supernova" is the name of an astronomical phenomenon involving the death of a star, as I'm sure you are aware. Can you imagine two marines discussing this with their literal Chapter names? Brother Jimmy of the Blowing-up Dying Stars says to Brother Bob of the People Killers? Which to you sounds more like that which a Space Marine would have? Although I have to admit that it could be worse - there was a Chapter called the Orbital Beacons a few months ago on here.

The name is no more silly than Space Marines, Ultramarines, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Salamanders, Carcharadons, Death Guard, or hundreds of other official names. Certainly no more silly than your own Knightwatch Chapter to be sure.

As you are probably aware, a supernova is one of the universe's most awesome natural displays of power, and also the catalyst for the creation of celestial bodies in the universe. Seems to me to be a pretty solid name, especially compared to the list of official Chapters.

 

Now, if the Chapter's name was "The Black Holes", we might have something to talk about. :)

[Aegnor]

I like the Supernova name. Is a good name.

[Wargamer]

I'll think you'll find that, at least at the time of posting, Wargamer had stated in the IA that they tried creating the Chapter's marines using Space Wolf geneseed, but that the attempt failed and they had to patch it up with Ultramarines geneseed.

I don't know where you get that from - I never said they 'patched' the Geneseed, I said the Chapter was refounded with Ultramarines geneseed. In essence, a line is drawn in the sand and from that point on the only Geneseed the Chapter will use to make new recruits is the stuff sent to them from Terra. They get rid of their own stocks (perhaps they send them to Terra in exchange, rather than destroying them) and only use the progenoids of the Marines made with the new 'stable' geneseed.

 

I did not say they spliced the two together (although I do wonder if you could get away with mixing organs grown from different Geneseed...).

 

Finally, Wargamer, you still seem not to have addressed the fact that your Chapter actively stole the geneseed and equipment of another Chapter and then used said gubbins to create more marines. Can you imagine the Space Wolves stealing some geneseed from the Blood Angels to create marines? It wouldn't be surprising if a Space Wolf suddenly went into the Black Rage? Not to mention that is tantamount to declaring war on your Brothers, who are you supposed to help to the death.

With half the Chapters out there made using Ultramarine geneseed, odds are good there won't be a great deal of genetic difference between the two Chapters. Indeed, that may be the reason it happened at all; the Supernovas had three Companies (possibly more) worth of Marines wiped out, with near a full Company worth lost when orbital platforms and ships were taken down. This means their wargear and, more vitally, their geneseed is beyond recovery. Now imagine if you found that the mound of dead bodies cooling on your doorstep had compatable Geneseed just waiting to be harvested...

 

Secondly, you speak as though all Marines are united in thought and purpose. Space Marines do not have to get along (Dark Angels are one of the best examples of a Chapter with poor PR skills). Anything from doctrine to personality conflicts can result in issues between Chapters. The Knights of Flame still need fleshing out more so that I have a clear idea of how they work before I can begin developing their retaliation, but ultimately the main reason this slight exists is because I wanted it to - I wanted a reason to bring two Chapters into conflict without one having to turn traitor. Having a fight where both sides believe they are in the right, and where both sides are loyal, produces a more interesting campaign dynamic.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, can't see an issue physically with one UM based chapter using UM geneseed from another chapter. Many chapters would find doing so distasteful or offensive, equally some probably couldn't care less so long as the geneseed was viable and stable.

 

In terms of upsetting the "donating" chapter, yeah some would never cross that line, others would figure the end justifies the means.

[Wargamer]

Done a little bit of editing.

 

• Made it clearer, since some people were clearly confusing themselves, that the Chapter was replacing, not "bastardising", their Geneseed during the refounding.
  
• Added descriptions of Bolter types favoured by the Chapter.
  
• Refined the "Terminus" frag grenade to include an explanation as to why the Chapter aren't handing over the STC.
  
• Clarified a little bit of the Inquisition War Aftermath.
  
• Changed the Tasalian language: "Supr Novr" has become "Secr Novr". Just sounds a little less... forced.
  

[Aegnor]

Just had a close read of the whole thing - had skimmed in and out before.

 

First, nice job mate. You've clearly put in a massive amount of effort and there are a lot of really nice elements to this. Tasal comes through as an interesting place with lots more depth than the oft-portrayed mono-climate, mono-culture examples that are often used in sci-fi.

 

I really like the Weyes idea and how that is explained. I also like the adopting/changing heraldry ideas.

 

In terms of bits that I thought might want a little more work: I thought the combat doctrine section wasn't as strong as lots of the other. It might just be a style preference on my part, but when people start talking about particular variants of tanks used or drop-pods, I find I get less interested pretty quickly. It can really add something as an illustration of there character (Salamanders like getting in people's faces and like fire, and therefore use lots of meltas and flamers. Blood Angels are frantic to get into close combat asap, and thus prefer jump-packs etc), but for me can quickly become overkill.

 

The thing about the special Terminus grenades similarly wasn't as strong, IMO, as some of the other stuff. It could work, but as it's currently cast, didn't quite ring true to me in the context of the whole piece. I think this might be the case in particular when it's in combination with the Inquisition War.

 

The Inquisition War itself seems a bit less cohesive as a section than some other parts. There are some great bits - the SoBs being lured into a deathtrap jungle was nice, and I liked the "we'll keep the Knights of Flame stuff" idea - that will teach the sods to come and invade your planet! The whole section though might need another couple of edits and reviews.

 

Finally, I'm going to touch on the forbidden subject, but in doing so make clear - I'm not trying to tell you you "can't" do that, nor am I wanting to kick-off that whole debate again. You want it in, and that's fine. I personally think you've done a good job of making a "realistic" feeling reflection of the complications having female recruits might entail, and I respect the level of effort you've put in in that regard. For me as a reader it did make me wonder why the chapter bothered when it apparently costs them so much wasted geneseed, but hey, I don't have to agree with all of Ximo's decisions.

 

My only last comment is that as a chapter, in the end, they come across as quite aberrant in terms of their behavior - I'd say they're at least as contrary to the norm as the Space Wolves are, and they feel like they're going to come badly a cropper soon. You do hint at that at the end, but they sound borderline renegade - albeit while considering themselves loyal to mankind. If that's the intent, ok. If it's not quite the effect you wanted, you might want to have a read and see if you agree with my reaction, and look at adjusting a few bits here and there.

 

 

Nice stuff overall mate - will keep reading. Do you have any painted up Supernovas you can show us?

[PorridgeMeister]

As you are probably aware, a supernova is one of the universe's most awesome natural displays of power, and also the catalyst for the creation of celestial bodies in the universe. Seems to me to be a pretty solid name, especially compared to the list of official Chapters.

Now, if the Chapter's name was "The Black Holes", we might have something to talk about. :)

 

Actually, the way you put it makes it sound quite good. ^_^ Yeah, I know my Chapter's name is quite cheesy, but I'm planning on changing it.

 

I don't know where you get that from - I never said they 'patched' the Geneseed, I said the Chapter was refounded with Ultramarines geneseed. In essence, a line is drawn in the sand and from that point on the only Geneseed the Chapter will use to make new recruits is the stuff sent to them from Terra. They get rid of their own stocks (perhaps they send them to Terra in exchange, rather than destroying them) and only use the progenoids of the Marines made with the new 'stable' geneseed.

 

I know that's what you were saying (I didn't express that very well - it was about 11.40 in the UK, so quite tired). What I meant was that by the time the failure was apparent in the geneseed the Chapter would have been substantially developed and therefore the Chapter would have been disbanded - assuming that we follow the model of the only precedent in the written material. Moreover, they wouldn't have tried a second SW successor given the failure of the Wolf Brothers.

 

With half the Chapters out there made using Ultramarine geneseed, odds are good there won't be a great deal of genetic difference between the two Chapters. Indeed, that may be the reason it happened at all; the Supernovas had three Companies (possibly more) worth of Marines wiped out, with near a full Company worth lost when orbital platforms and ships were taken down. This means their wargear and, more vitally, their geneseed is beyond recovery. Now imagine if you found that the mound of dead bodies cooling on your doorstep had compatible Geneseed just waiting to be harvested...

 

I see now that you have changed the Inquisition War to reflect the fact that the Knights of Flame were Ultramarines successors as well and therefore had compatible geneseed, which was not so at the time of posting. Fair enough, if they were that desperate to loot the bodies of fellow Astartes.

 

Secondly, you speak as though all Marines are united in thought and purpose. Space Marines do not have to get along.

 

Obviously, not all marines are united in thought and purpose, as evidenced by several canon Chapters; yet the impression that you give of your Chapter is that they were quite honourable and got on well with other Chapters - judging by this, I thought it would be a bit odd to just steal another Chapter's geneseed, but you have since enumerated that they were desperate enough to do this.

[Wargamer]

In terms of bits that I thought might want a little more work: I thought the combat doctrine section wasn't as strong as lots of the other. It might just be a style preference on my part, but when people start talking about particular variants of tanks used or drop-pods, I find I get less interested pretty quickly. It can really add something as an illustration of there character (Salamanders like getting in people's faces and like fire, and therefore use lots of meltas and flamers. Blood Angels are frantic to get into close combat asap, and thus prefer jump-packs etc), but for me can quickly become overkill.

The primary reason that is there is because of my own canon discontinuity. GW now claim that a "Deathwind" pod is any Drop Pod with its own personal missile launcher, rather than what it used to be - an automated weapon box. I don't like the new Drop Pods, especially not the Vanilla version that allows two special characters to cling to the sides on the way down, so I suppose the mention of their Pods is a way of riling against GW's lazy discontinuity.

 

The thing about the special Terminus grenades similarly wasn't as strong, IMO, as some of the other stuff. It could work, but as it's currently cast, didn't quite ring true to me in the context of the whole piece. I think this might be the case in particular when it's in combination with the Inquisition War.

As somebody else mentioned, the Terminus is born of wanting my Chapter to use Rogue Trader era grenades, which are completely different to modern ones. An Astartes frag grenade is huge, whereas back in 1st Edition they were so tiny you could hide one inside a clenched fist. Thus, the problem is how to justify my Chapter using them despite the fact the rest of the galaxy has forgotten such grenades ever existed.

 

Finally, I'm going to touch on the forbidden subject, but in doing so make clear - I'm not trying to tell you you "can't" do that, nor am I wanting to kick-off that whole debate again. You want it in, and that's fine. I personally think you've done a good job of making a "realistic" feeling reflection of the complications having female recruits might entail, and I respect the level of effort you've put in in that regard. For me as a reader it did make me wonder why the chapter bothered when it apparently costs them so much wasted geneseed, but hey, I don't have to agree with all of Ximo's decisions.

I should probably produce a section on noteworthy members of the Chapter at some point, just to flesh the guy out. :D

 

Ximo, when originally created, caught a lot of people's attention because he was a "non combat" Chapter Master. He made up for that by being a strategic and tactical genius. However, lately I've been thinking that it never hurts for perfection to be marred by the odd flaw... and to that end, I find that notions of honour are the ones that fit best, since that seems to be an issue with the Chapter as a whole; more than once have I had characters make judgements based on personal pride.

 

That might sound strange, but if you frame it right it fits - ultimately, the Adepta issue boils down to "is Ximo an oathbreaker?" He made a call that was unpopular even within his own Chapter, but he did it so he could clear his own conscience.

[Aegnor]

Didn't see the previous response on the grenades - i'll admit I didn't read the whole thread when it appeared to have got bogged down in circles on the Adepta issue. The clarification re the Deathwind pods makes sense - I read it as the current version of Deathwind, rather than them being unmanned, so I can see the distinction.

 

Ximo sounds like an interesting character - he comes across as a bit eccentric.

[Wargamer]

The Drop Pod / Deathwind Pod business has been clarified - there's no room for confusion now as to how they work. :D

 

Also, major re-write of the Adepta has occured, partly because I realised that placing them after the Inquisition War would contradict with some of the stuff I've written previously; I've had stories mention the Adepta being present, albeit as Aspirants, prior to the Inquisition War kicking off.

 

I think the new version of their creation works much better.

[War Angel]

Read space wolf, or any of the Ragnar blackmane novels. The grenades they use there are disk's, and he retrieves them from some sort of dispenser that reminds me of coin dispenser. I'm not sure where you're getting the information that the rest of the imperium has forgotten these grenades from, but I'd it's because there not in the codex, that's only because they can't ballence them in.

[Wargamer]

Read space wolf, or any of the Ragnar blackmane novels. The grenades they use there are disk's, and he retrieves them from some sort of dispenser that reminds me of coin dispenser. I'm not sure where you're getting the information that the rest of the imperium has forgotten these grenades from, but I'd it's because there not in the codex, that's only because they can't ballence them in.

The models, the artwork, the description of grenades in the various rulebooks, the descriptions of grenades in other novels... the overwhelming opinion is that Astartes frag grenades are huge, bulky things.

 

Gamewise, they wouldn't need to balance them - frag grenades are frag grenades no matter what they look like. GW simply does not favour that old style any more. The books you are referring to are pretty old, so they may have been written back when that kind of tech was canon, but nowadays you have to single the tech out or people will assume that by 'frag grenade' you mean 'canister the size of a small truck'.

[War Angel]

Nope, micro grenades are micro grenades. Just because GW doesn't have a mold of tiny palm disk's doesn't mean they dont exist. The big ones look cooler any way, seeing as you can't really paint tiny disks that easy. Youre basing this all off of models. Currently ever tactical marine has a bolter and bolt pistol or CCW. Do the Tac boxes come with 10 bolters? Most of the legs already have purity seals on them. Has there been an option to give purity seals to regular marines in the last few codex's?

 

There's no longer a book for cursed founding chapter rules. Does this mean the inquisition has purged them? Squad leaders used to be able to have bionics. My codex isn't on me any more but I'm pretty sure there no longer capable. Does this mean GW has removed them from cannon? Or is it more Lilkely that it's been taken out for balance issues?

 

You're writing that you're the only one with the grenades yet the rest of the imperium has them. It's silly and it's taking away from you're IA.

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

Before I start off, I want to apologize to Dark Guard for being the reason that yet another post be edited for mention of female Astartes. I'd thought I'd suitably skirted the matter in addressing my thoughts that another poster was over-focusing unfairly on that particular issue, and it seems I was wrong.

 

For anyone who still wishes to discuss female Space Marines generally or Wargamer's Adepta specifically (hopefully in a civil and reasoned manner, either way) I've recently posted an article on the subject in the suitable Librarium topic under Brother Tyler's direction, and would welcome your input there.

 

 

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@ War Angel:

Actually, that makes things even easier on Wargamer. It means that all he has to do is say something to the effect of "The Supernovas are noted for making extensive use of an uncommon and archaic form of micro-frag-grenade, similar to those known to have been used on occasion by the Space Wolves chapter." That sidesteps the issue of origins and why-aren't-they-everywhere quite nicely, and saves Wargamer the bother of having to spend more words explaining what they are and how they work- since anyone who's read William King's Space Wolf novels will already know.

 

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@ Aegnor:

Ximo is an exceptionally eccentric and interesting character, and I've been bugging Wargamer to do a proper who's who bit on him since the start of this IA.

 

As regards the chapter's character;

 

The Supernovas are very much an exercise in the idea that when you set up an independent millitary force to operate in a very remote part of your domain where there really isn't much oversight nor the opportunity for frequent check ins, you leave all that to stew for several thousand years and you'll find some guys who are quite enthusiastically in agreement with you that they fight in the holy cause of the Emperor, but have developed themselves one weird and wonderful set of divergent philosophy on how you go about it. The Supernovas have, to an extent, "gone native" to their homeworld's culture, and this is reflected in the way they think and act as a Chapter of Marines.

 

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The idea that Space Marines mangled the pronunciation of their chapter name seems just strange. Most obviously, surely they’d just call themselves the Second Stars.

Another of the ideas that Wargamer had floated to me at one point, was that the Supernovas themselves didn't mispronounce their chapter's name. They went about introducing themselves as the Supr Novr to the Imperials they met; none of whom had the time or patience to master the nuances of some bass-ackwards deathworld's native dialect, so the chapter's name was so consistently mispronounced as "Supernovas" that this is what was entered on official records, and after a while, to alleviate

their own headaches the Chapter started answering to the new name and stopped bothering to correct people.

 

Second, the chapter doesn’t seem to have much of a personality.

 

A Chapter of marines whose numerous unusual behaviors are rooted in the fact that they have, as a chapter, largely Gone Native to the Celtic-influenced warrior cultures of their homeworld. A Chapter of marines who identify closely enough with their origins that they even retain a degree of their old idioms, cultural trappings, and informal speech patterns, whereas most Space Marines become BS 4 Grammarians. A Chapter who see their mission and duties as much as a grand and adventure-filled quest amongst the stars as anything. A Chapter that is exceptionally close-knit, with relationships much like true family between battle-brothers; who prefer to fight in squads of close comrades more often than in larger formations, and who pick proteges they as much adopt as their children as simply act as mentors for. A Chapter whose beliefs in honor necessitate holding to your oath-given word, even in the face of dire consequences. Pick any three and mix your own delicious flavor of smoothie! :D

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Obviously not, otherwise the Chapter would not exist to this day.

.

Yeah. I'm glad you agree with me here, since I wrote that to explain and counter your previous apparent position that getting into a fight with any portion of the inquisition should have resulted in the single Inquisitor hauling out a monolithically massive invasion force, getting the Chapter unequivocally declared Excommunicatus, and Exterminatus'd their homeworld to boot.

 

I'll think you'll find that, at least at the time of posting, Wargamer had stated in the IA that they tried creating the Chapter's marines using Space Wolf geneseed, but that the attempt failed and they had to patch it up with Ultramarines geneseed.

 

There was a supposed Space Wolves chapter that failed. This chapter was "refounded"- replaced by a new chapter that would take up its duties and homeworld but using a different geneseed and under a related, but different, name. Think of it as a spiritual-Successor chapter. My point still stands, there's nothing out of line with this.

 

There's no need for that patronizing and rather aggressive tone, I was merely stating that I had specialist knowledge of the subject and things like this bug me because there are a lot of people on the Internet who misquote and misuse Latin on a regular basis. I find this quite frustrating to be honest and I could not judge whether he was one of those people - you accuse me of being ignorant of the fact that it was from this made-up language, yet I think you'll find that I (like most people in this thread) was too caught up in the some of the more concerning aspects of Wargamer's IA.

 

This is exactly my point. You jumped in on a hot-button issue, ready to spew faith and fire and rhetorical brimstone; you payed insufficient attention to the rest of the IA, and posted a number of aggressive critiques based on a highly inaccurate (and I'm being charitable in saying only that), understanding of Wargamer's IA as a result. You saw what you wanted to see because you'd convinced yourself the article deserved getting into a rather high-handed attack-mode over and didn't bother to look closely enough to realize that wasn't so, and I trust you'll forgive me for finding that "quite frustrating, to be honest," and let my wording inform you of my irritation.

 

Of course, I do now recognize my mistake.

I'm glad. You've just accomplished something 85% of the Internet never seems to manage...

 

Need to recharge my laptop. Haven't finished responding to points raised that are marked with an X.

Oh, so that's what those were for. 'Kay.

[War Angel]

If you read what the IA states, the original space wolf chapter never died, they then started using ultramarine gene seed for the new recruits, and stopped passing down the space wolf gene seed.

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

War Angel: It's entirely possible I misread something, but what I had understood was that the old chapter was known to be irretrievably doomed before all of the marines actually died out, and as such in the time between then and when they finally went extinct, those few survivors had a hand in instructing the new UM-based chapter that would replace them. I suppose we'll have to wait for Wargamer's clarification or revision there.

[War Angel]

That's what I read also. It reminds me of that clone movie with Arnold. Where when the bad guy gets shot and clones himself, the new bad guy doesn't even wait for him to die before taking his clothes

[TrashMan]

- Trying to resist the AdMech is beyond foolish - ever heard of the Soul Drinkers Chapter? It didn't go too well for them, even though they were in the right.

It can and has been done by space marine chapters over and over again, in numerous different ways.

 

Which ones, when and in what conditions?

Name the chapters that engaged in open warfare with the Mechanicum..

[Wargamer]

If you read what the IA states, the original space wolf chapter never died, they then started using ultramarine gene seed for the new recruits, and stopped passing down the space wolf gene seed.

The last of the Novr Aestra, according to my friend Circus, all pooled together into a Company strength force and went off having epic adventures, turning into something akin to a "loyalist" Traitor Warband roaming through the Eye of Terror (think 13th Company). Since he seemed to have a lot of fun doing that, the official statement from my end is that the last of them all took part in a Death Quest, and nobody has a clue where they went, or how far they got.

 

It is true, sort of, that the Chapter never died (from a Supernovan perspective); there would have been a period where both the Space Wolf and Ultramarine forces were running side by side. However, with only one side able to replenish their losses, it's inevitable that eventually all the Wolves would simply die off.