Jorre Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I just had the most amazing game vs chaos Demons where commander Dante went on an absolute rampage. It was so great I thought I better share it with you! I put him with my melta honour guard 1x blood champion TH/SS 1x melta 2x melta/SS 1x noviate It's a pretty tough squad and Dante gives them hit & run to keep those meltas firing! Basically Dante and co came in turn 3 deep striking right next to a demon prince. With a little help from a nearby predator they vaporized him! Turn 4 they jump over some impassable terrain and vaporize my mates brand new 205 point chaos decimator! Dante is then assaulted by 10 plague bearers. Dante kills 1 and the blood champ kills 1, but in return I loose the noviate and one SS/melta. Dante then uses hit & run to disengage. Turn 5 Dante and co unload on the the plague bearers then assault them. My predator helped yet again and the plague bearers are wiped out! My opponent then uses kairos to shoot all kinds of demon poop at Dante and co I loose the last 2 meltas so it's just Dante and the blood champ. Kairos decides to assault Dante, but neither party was able to do any damage! Dante then Uses hit and run to disengage again. Turn 6 sees Dante blasting kairos and assaulting again! I manage to take of 1 wound, but in reply he kills the blood champ! Everybody whiffs in my opponents turn so we are locked in combat. The game goes on to turn 7 and despite the odds Dante wounds kairos 3 times and he fails his save on 2 of them then also fails his rerolls! I was amazed that shouldn't happen! Wanting revenge on Dante my friend uses his last demon prince to assault him in the final phase of the game. The demon prince only had 2 wounds left, and Dante strikes first at I6 and amazingly he cut the demon down before he could strike! Both myself and my mate where stunned until I started running around the table cheering Dante the hero of the imperium! So his kill tally for the game was 2 demon prince of tzeench 1 chaos decimator 1 pague bearer squad Kairos who has a 3+ invul with rerolls! That is an amazing tally for a strength 4 character! Easily the best performance he's had for me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talnox Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 very nice. I love dante good to see he does better for you than me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I'm pretty sure you can't swap out equipment on Blood Champions so you technically can't give him a TH if that's true. Otherwise hearty congratulations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 I don't have the codex In front of me at the moment, but from memory he comes with 3 items and you can upgrade 2 of them. I am not 100% certain so feel free to check. I did write the list with army builder and it allowed it, but army builder does get it wrong sometimes. Can anyone check?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I think you can manage the TH/SS by buying them first and then upgrading to Blood Champion. The BC upgrade doesn't replace any equipment so technically he has both a power weapon and thunder hammer and a combat shield and storm shield! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother apocalyptic Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Id say he cant have TH and SS... As the BC comes with 2 fixed equipments, and none of the upgrades otherwise is available for him, hes stuck with those.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Blood Champion is not of type Honor Guard. He can't have upgrades same as the Novitiate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 I guess army builder messed that up then, because they allow you to edit the Blood Champion, but not the noviate Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3060870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Blood Champion is not of type Honor Guard. He can't have upgrades same as the Novitiate. Honour Guard however is of type Honour Guard and can buy upgrades for an Honour Guard before upgrading him to Blood Champion. There is precedent for this in the Ork FAQ which states that you can upgrade the nob with, for example, a klaw before you upgrade the unit to shootas (which would otherwise prevent the nob upgrade). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3061503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Blood Champion is not of type Honor Guard. He can't have upgrades same as the Novitiate. Honour Guard however is of type Honour Guard and can buy upgrades for an Honour Guard before upgrading him to Blood Champion. There is precedent for this in the Ork FAQ which states that you can upgrade the nob with, for example, a klaw before you upgrade the unit to shootas (which would otherwise prevent the nob upgrade). You can totally upgrade him before he's upgraded to a Champ-however when he's upgraded he's equipped with the items listed only. Its the same for the DA dex (and faq). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3061513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 You can totally upgrade him before he's upgraded to a Champ-however when he's upgraded he's equipped with the items listed only. Its the same for the DA dex (and faq). Doesn't say anything about replacing his existing wargear when you upgrade to BC. The wargear is listed for the entire unit. Upgrading to BC adds a power weapon and combat shield to that model but does not remove his existing wargear. Unless you're suggesting that he no longer has power armour or grenades? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3061558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 You can totally upgrade him before he's upgraded to a Champ-however when he's upgraded he's equipped with the items listed only. Its the same for the DA dex (and faq). Doesn't say anything about replacing his existing wargear when you upgrade to BC. The wargear is listed for the entire unit. Upgrading to BC adds a power weapon and combat shield to that model but does not remove his existing wargear. Unless you're suggesting that he no longer has power armour or grenades? It just means he is now a bc, not an hg and thus has the weapon options listed for the bc upgrade and no longer has the normal hgg options. You can however equip 4 or 5 hg with th if you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3061781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 It just means he is now a bc, not an hg and thus has the weapon options listed for the bc upgrade and no longer has the normal hgg options. No, it doesn't mean that. It means what it says in the codex entry, unless there is a FAQ or Errata that changes that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3061859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 It just means he is now a bc, not an hg and thus has the weapon options listed for the bc upgrade and no longer has the normal hgg options. No, it doesn't mean that. It means what it says in the codex entry, unless there is a FAQ or Errata that changes that. Morollan, Your reading comprehension is failing you, mate. The codex explicitly states what the BC has. ie: The BC has specified wargear. Additionally, the BC has a distinct profile entry, meaning once hes a BC he is not longer an HG- meaning he can't get HG stuff. So, if you want to upgrade him after- you cant because upgrades are listed for HG. If you want to upgrade him before, go ahead, but once he's a BC he has items listed in the BC entry - which don't include upgrades. If you're looking for precedent look closer to home in how we were overruled in this regard with the Furioso/Furioso libby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3061907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 It just means he is now a bc, not an hg and thus has the weapon options listed for the bc upgrade and no longer has the normal hgg options. No, it doesn't mean that. It means what it says in the codex entry, unless there is a FAQ or Errata that changes that. Morollan, Your reading comprehension is failing you, mate. The codex explicitly states what the BC has. ie: The BC has specified wargear. Additionally, the BC has a distinct profile entry, meaning once hes a BC he is not longer an HG- meaning he can't get HG stuff. So, if you want to upgrade him after- you cant because upgrades are listed for HG. If you want to upgrade him before, go ahead, but once he's a BC he has items listed in the BC entry - which don't include upgrades. If you're looking for precedent look closer to home in how we were overruled in this regard with the Furioso/Furioso libby. My reading comprehension is fine thanks. The Furioso libby specifically says "replaces all wargear". I don't see any such phrase in the BC entry. Nor do I see "exchanges bolt pistol and close combat weapon for..." or any other such statement. Indeed, if we look at the codex entry directly preceding Honour Guard (the Captain) we see an example of how your interpretation of the BC entry would read if your interpretation was correct: Replace power armour, boltgun, chainsword, frag & krak grenades with terminator armour with storm bolter and power sword So, we take away x, y & z and replace it with a, b & c. What does the BC upgrade option say though. Nothing to replace or exchange, simply two additional items of wargear. So could you point out exactly which rules I am breaking if I do the following: Select an Honour Guard Upgrade that Honour Guard with any items that are allowed in the list on page 84 available to "Any Honour Guard". Upgrade that Honour Guard to a BC with the addition of the items shown in that entry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 It just means he is now a bc, not an hg and thus has the weapon options listed for the bc upgrade and no longer has the normal hgg options. No, it doesn't mean that. It means what it says in the codex entry, unless there is a FAQ or Errata that changes that. Morollan, Your reading comprehension is failing you, mate. The codex explicitly states what the BC has. ie: The BC has specified wargear. Additionally, the BC has a distinct profile entry, meaning once hes a BC he is not longer an HG- meaning he can't get HG stuff. So, if you want to upgrade him after- you cant because upgrades are listed for HG. If you want to upgrade him before, go ahead, but once he's a BC he has items listed in the BC entry - which don't include upgrades. If you're looking for precedent look closer to home in how we were overruled in this regard with the Furioso/Furioso libby. My reading comprehension is fine thanks. The Furioso libby specifically says "replaces all wargear". I don't see any such phrase in the BC entry. Nor do I see "exchanges bolt pistol and close combat weapon for..." or any other such statement. Indeed, if we look at the codex entry directly preceding Honour Guard (the Captain) we see an example of how your interpretation of the BC entry would read if your interpretation was correct: Replace power armour, boltgun, chainsword, frag & krak grenades with terminator armour with storm bolter and power sword So, we take away x, y & z and replace it with a, b & c. What does the BC upgrade option say though. Nothing to replace or exchange, simply two additional items of wargear. So could you point out exactly which rules I am breaking if I do the following: Select an Honour Guard Upgrade that Honour Guard with any items that are allowed in the list on page 84 available to "Any Honour Guard". Upgrade that Honour Guard to a BC with the addition of the items shown in that entry. To start with - the rule of beardy cheese. Your error is in replacing items within a set, where as the bc entry lists a entirly new set. ie, its not option 1.xy&z OR 1.abc BUT option 1.xyz OR option "2". BCis a new unit type with unique wargear within the HG, just as the nov has his own unique wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I suggest the discussion of the champion wargear be taken to the Official Rules forum. Its been debated several times, and discussions of it should occur there not here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 First of all: Page 84 BA Codex, Honour Guard loadout "One Honour Guard can be upgraded to a Blood Champion with a power weapon and combat shield +20" So therefore the model has been upgraded and can no longer recieve any further upgrades. Second, why did the novitiate die before the unit were able to assault? It's not an independant character and can't be singled out in close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 wound allocation through unique war gear? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 wound allocation through unique war gear? Yeah but I don't understand why anyone would remove the novitiate even with a blinged out HG. It's worth 75 points with a jump pack (when compared to a Sanguinary priest) plus the added bonus of not being singled out in close combat. Personally I would drop the storm shields and go with 4 melta gunners and a chapter banner with everyone using meltabombs for that "just incase" scenario. (My actual honour guard only uses 4 meltas and runs with a librarian. It works great as is but meltabombs would allow me to change a psychic power and the chapter banner would gain more reliance on the unit for successful assaults) Potentially the unit can achieve 4 s8 ap1 shots followed by 16 s5, I5 attacks in assault (with the novitiate using bolt pistol and chainsword) for the unit itself. Then add Dante to the unit (1 melta shot at 6", 7 power weapon attacks at s5 I7 in assault) that's gotta hurt someone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 sevenexxes, perhaps the unit took enough wounds that the Novitiate had to be assigned some and failed his save? I know I've had units with only the sergeant killed or only the one guy I really want to protect killed due to taking so many wounds and failing just he really important save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Morollan, check the Summary at the back of your Codex and have a look at the table entitled "Troop Types". As you can see Blood Champion has it's own troop type. What this means is that when an Honour Guard is upgraded to a Blood Champion is it no longer Troop Type: Honour Guard, it is Troop Type: Blood Champion and can only follow the rules and restrictions for a Blood Champion. If I may, what is your answer to the following questions: Do you put extra Wargear on your Sanguinary Novitate? Do you count Lemartes/Death Company Tycho towards the Death Company numbers that unlock a DC Dreadnought? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 sevenexxes, perhaps the unit took enough wounds that the Novitiate had to be assigned some and failed his save? I know I've had units with only the sergeant killed or only the one guy I really want to protect killed due to taking so many wounds and failing just he really important save. Oh true, I never thought of that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Morollan, check the Summary at the back of your Codex and have a look at the table entitled "Troop Types". As you can see Blood Champion has it's own troop type. What this means is that when an Honour Guard is upgraded to a Blood Champion is it no longer Troop Type: Honour Guard, it is Troop Type: Blood Champion and can only follow the rules and restrictions for a Blood Champion. If I may, what is your answer to the following questions: Do you put extra Wargear on your Sanguinary Novitate? Do you count Lemartes/Death Company Tycho towards the Death Company numbers that unlock a DC Dreadnought? James I has asked that we move this discussion to the OR. Happy to continue it there if anyone wants to do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 Yes this threads sole purpose should be for basking in the awesomeness that is Commander Dante! Just to clarify basically the plague bearers did so many wounds to my honor guard From memory everyone in the squad had to have 2 wounds allocated to them. Except the noviate he only had 1 wound which I proceeded to fail both the 3+ and the 4+!!! Typical!! As a side not plague bearers should not be underestimated! They have poisoned weapons (4+) and str 4 so they wound marines on a 4+ with rerolls! Quite nasty when you get assaulted by 10 of them! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252341-commander-dante/#findComment-3062952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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