MSU Khan

[DarkGuard]

Heya guys. All this talk of bike armies and Khan recently has got me thinking about the best way to use Khan. Most of this thought has been inspired by both the Khan Mech list in C:SM army list forum created by kormarrowkhan, and also in some discussions I've had with Nid players on outflanking. Now their general thought on outflanking is to use multiple small units, therefore decreasing the chances of a bad dice roll messing up your best laid plans. And there's a lot of merit in that, the more dice you throw the more likely you are to get units where you want them to be. And talk with kormarrowkhan on his thread made me wonder if this could work with Space Marines using Khan. Now I'm not an MSU lover, and if I did play MSU Marines I'd want to use C:BA for fast assault cannons, but can C:SM emulate some of that style using outflank?

 

Now the reason I've posted this here rather than the Army List forum is because I don't want a critique on a list, I will be providing one later on as an example, but rather because I wanted to discuss whether the concept in theory could work, and see whether any others have used it. I don't plan to use this sort of list anytime soon, mostly due to monetary reasons, but coming up with new list concepts is always something I enjoy, and I wanted to share and discuss this one with you guys.

 

 

So the idea here is maximise the effectiveness of outflanking and assault cannon Razorbacks by using multiple Razorbacks in a Khan outflank list. The list should be able to deploy all in reserve if needed, being able to choose between coming on from the owning player's table edge, the side edges, or be able to deploy normally. So therefore it has two function in two rolls to have maximum flexibility while still taking advantage of outflank. One way of taking advantage of outflank is to use assault cannon Razorbacks. While not fast, coming in from the side should net them side armour shots easily. Combi-meltas in the squads inside are also useful in a mech firefight, and coming in from anywhere on the side table edges should get them in range quickly. Major anti-tank, as always in a Khan list, would be employed using MM ABs.

 

The question here was how anti-infantry should be implemented, I think mass Razorbacks could work, but also Sternguard and even a Command squad should be considered for this job, as these units can really put the hurt on infantry units if need be. Also, to meet the goal of flexibility some Razorbacks would have to be the las/plas variety to let them deploy normally or roll on from the players main board edge and claim backfield units.

 

So here's the example list, hopefully making the mot of Khan's own unit abilities and his army wide abilities. The goals, remember, are to be flexible in deployment, while hard hitting towards a range of units.

 

Khan = 160pts

Command squad w/ Apothecary w/ CCW, Company Champion, power fist, lighting claw, storm shield, Razorback w/ TL-assault cannon = 260pts

5x Sternguard w/ heavy flamer, 3x combi-melta, Razorback w/ TL-assault cannon = 225pts

5x Sternguard w/ heavy flamer, 3x combi-melta, Razorback w/ TL-assault cannon = 225pts

5x Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta, Razorback w/ TL-assault cannon = 175pts

5x Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta, Razorback w/ TL-assault cannon = 175pts

5x Tactical Marines, Razorback w/ las/plas = 165pts

5x Tactical Marines, Razorback w/ las/plas = 165pts

2x MM ABs = 100pts

2x MM ABs = 100pts

Total = 1750pts

 

So a lot of spam, which is quite shameful I know. :P

 

I feel this list would be able to fulfill the goals that I laid out early. It has a ton of anti-tank in both melta weapons and Razorbacks, nearly every unit can contribute meaningfully towards anti-tank, and the same to anti-MC. It also packs a lot of anti-infantry, in both the assault cannons and the elite units, the heavy flamers are there to help with this matter. Anti-elite is also covered by the elite units and las/plas Razorbacks. The las/plas Razorbacks are there for flexible deployment. They can start in normal reserve or on the board to claim backfield objectives. Or they can outflank and still bring some powerful shots into side armour while claiming midfield objectives. The Tactical squads inside are less well equipped for frontline action, hinting at their predominant backfield role.

 

Of course, in any reserve or outflank list there's a chance of dice rolls messing you up. But I feel that with this army you'll often be rolling at least 7 dice Turn 2 for your forces, maybe more. With that amount of dice you should be able to get some units to where you want them to be, while the others can be a nuisance and/or work themselves through a different angle of attack. This list meets the goal of tactical flexibility in deployment, as it can do null deployment, semi-null deployment, or just deploy on the board normally, all very well.

 

I'm not saying that such a list or philosophy is unbeatable, as said any philosophy that relies on dice rolls will be weak to some degree. But it's quite an interesting concept I've had floating around for a while and I was wondering what others would think about it. Would it work? Would it just fail? Have you had experience with a similar list style and philosophy before? I find this sort of army very interesting, full of lots of tactical possibilities. What do you think? As ever, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. :P

[awfulawful]

I want very much to like this idea. It has fantastic potential, but I just can't get over the dependency on those merciless reserve rolls. With so many armies packing a decent amount of transport popping firepower, you run a pretty good risk of feeding your opponent one or two AV11 targets per turn to promptly turn to scrap.

 

Do you have the models to play (or even proxy) the list? I would love to hear how it actually does.

[Koremu]

It is well worth remembering with Khan that Multi-Melta Attack Bike Squadrons have Combat Tactics, and therefore are subject to Khan's Chapter Tactics.

 

On a 6' board that means there's nowhere that they can't hit, and 2/3rds of the board they threaten with Melta range.

 

It's not just the (scoring) bike squadrons that outflank...

[DarkGuard]

awfulawlful, unfortunately I don't think I could stretch the proxying. I only have two MM ABs and nothing else of approximate size, and while I could feasibly proxy 3 Rhinos the only other tanks I have are Vindicators or bigger (and Vindies are a little bigger than Razorbacks). It's simply an idea that other people may like, and should I be able to make it would be quite interesting to play etc. And I agree with you on the whole reserves thing. At times it will work amazingly because everything will turn up where you want it, at other times it will fail badly and what you described will happen.

 

Koremu, indeed, which is why I chose them ahead of my preferred MM/HF Speeders, they work so well with Khan.

 

I really want to try this stuff out, but uni work and lack of models to proxy/money to buy means I'd find it difficult. If people have similar lists of models and want to give it a try feel free and let me know how you get on. It will be random, but big risks equal big rewards do they not?

[Paulochromis]

What does 2x2ABs give you that 1x2+2x1 doesn't? Singles never fall back for < 50%. Singles make excellent blockers as well.

 

Quite a lot of AT (sternguard combi-meltas) in sealed boxes (no top-hatch) - did you think about rhinos?

Could get a pair of ABs or even a cheap LS with the points saved.

 

I think you might be missing your anvil.

Khan threatens the flanks, so opponents bunch up in the middle, and you've nothing to really scare him there.

I think it was Koremu who advocated rolling a pair of vindies or similar up the centre, to push your opponent towards the flanking units.

And of course a LRC with FC assault termies (include LClaws) works quite well too (albeit rather expensive).

 

Cheers, Paul.

[DarkGuard]

No reason for 2x2 MM ABs apart from it being my preference, as you said 1x2 and 2x1 would work as well.

 

With the top hatch thing, the idea was to get as much use out of outflanking assault cannons as possible. However, I didn't want every unit to be a 5 man Tactical squad that can't do much damage, therefore Sternguard. I'm also one of those players who doesn't think the top hatch is the best thing since sliced bread. No top hatch? I'll get out then, in an good position. The combi-meltas are only back up anyway, the main reason why the Sternguard are there is for more anti-infantry, in which they have to be out the tank to fire at full effect.

 

True, and when I play Nids I do play with an anvil and then some outflanking units. But with this army I just wanted to see how much stuff I could feasibly get into outflank. An anvil, two Vindicators as you say, would probably work, and I could drop a Sternguard unit for them, or the Command squad. But then I'd have less units outflanking, and therefore less dice rolls etc. That would certainly be an idea worth incorporating though, it's the basic idea for my Nid army afterall, bunch up from the flanks and my main army will get you, stay spread out and my outflankers will get you, impossible scenario (sort of).

[greatcrusade08]

khan on foot is my fav Ic from the C:SM dex, however i have to echo the feelings about this army, on first glance its awesome, but i have some niggles

 

my initial thought is that without khan this army would be better built using C:BA, obviously khan is the main reason with outflank on all units.. but without that 'prop' its a weaker version of a BA r/back list

however that aside the idea has alot of potential IMO, its a novel idea for C:SM to outflank a whole army (scouts not withstanding) and by running dual units of melta bikes, you almost ensure one arrives early to pop that anoying land raider

khan and command squad will hit like a ton of bricks, but you will suffer from not having an assault vehicle if the enemy sets up towards the board edges, i dont suppose youd consider a land raider?

 

im not too fussed by sternies having a ass/back, the assault cannon will be better against most enemies anyway and if your in range to use the heavy flamer, just disembark.

[DarkGuard]

Cheers GC08. You're probably right when you say this list concept is a stripped down version of C:BA Razorspam. However, the outflanking does give it a different dimension, allowing it to more readily attack from different angles, although with less speed.

 

With the Command squad they wouldn't be able to outflank in a Land Raider, as it's not a DT for them. Assault Terminators would be better, but it's a lot of points, and you know me, I don't like a lot of points spent on single units. ;)

 

Although that would be a valid adaptation and would still work, you'd lose a Sternguard squad then I'd imagine to make it happen.

 

I'm happy that a lot of people quite like the idea of this army concept, even if it is flawed. Glad to know I'm not crazy. :P

[greatcrusade08]

With the Command squad they wouldn't be able to outflank in a Land Raider, as it's not a DT for them. Assault Terminators would be better, but it's a lot of points, and you know me, I don't like a lot of points spent on single units. ;)

 

aww bugger, your right.. claw termies and khan is an evil combo btw, might be worth a try, cant run down after combat but they do have hit and run and lots of savagery, they are 60 points cheaper than the command squad too

 

I'm happy that a lot of people quite like the idea of this army concept, even if it is flawed. Glad to know I'm not crazy. :P

yip, its a great concept, might need some refining/tinkering to get the most from it

[DarkGuard]

I did use to run the Assault Terminators with Khan on foot once. They did well for me, but then my LGS does play on 4x4s. For others Assault Terminators on foot might not be so great, even when Outflanking. And you'd drop another assault cannon then. And then you also lack the ability to reliably deploy on the board if the situation isn't good for outflanking. It's an idea though, but I envisaged the Command squad as a counter-attack unit rather than a spearhead.