A Question About the Alpha Legion

[Son of Carnelian]

Okay, I need some help here gang. So, the Alpha Legion are not supposed to be that devoted to Chaos as a religion and are outside the Eye of Terror, lessening the mutating effects of the Warp on their bodies. Yet they have demon princes? Who are they appeasing? Also, why is it that some of the canon sources say that they are masters of infiltration and fighting indirectly, yet we have tales in both the Space Marine Codex and Blood Angels Codex of an Alpha Legion demon prince seizing power and waging a traditional war. Finally, maybe my biggest question, is if all of their leaders are interchangeable (the hydra thing) why is it that anyone rises to prominence and becomes a warlord or demon prince? Wouldn't they shun the idea of what we come to think of as a "Chaos Lord?"

 

GRAH! Everything conflicts!

[The Colossus]

Oh this opens a veritable can of worms... The last discussion on this descended into anarchy, without a real definitive answer...

 

EDIT: Forgot to answer the actual question. Alpha Legion use lies and misdirection, so this may be one of those things. Plus, in 10,000 years, being outside the eye of terror, they will have needed to recruit and maybe they're not as fervently adhering to their tenets, also, some may have used Chaos as a tool, and been tempted too much and thus utterly corrupted...

[Guest Vortex]

My own view has generally been that there most likely are some Alpha Legionnaires who have fully fallen to or embraced Chaos in the conventional way; almost undoubtedly so. Perhaps when this happens they are "cut out of the picture" when it comes to wider Legion strategy amongst their brethren (the like-unto-a-Hydra comparison) when they pursue a more rewarding career in the eyes of the Dark Gods. Or maybe those like Daemon Princes just consider themselves so far above/removed from the rest of the Legion that they'd rather just go off and do their own thing and not have to conform to anyone else's standards.

[Vesper]

Codex SM & codex BA ? Matt Ward. Period.

[The Colossus]

Voldorius made it into a Black Library book...

[Piousservant]

It's not complicated. The Legions splintered post-Heresy.

 

There are some Alpha Legionnaires totally in thrall to Chaos, and a few far enough to become Daemon Princes. Then there are some Alpha Legion warbands who spend most of their time outside the Eye fighting in the name of, well, whatever you happen to want them to. Some fight for Chaos, some fight for vengence, some fight just because they can, and maybe - just maybe - some fight for the Emperor...

 

Structure wise, some warbands will be ordered along the lines of their old Company, but some will have abandoned the old ideals of the Legio and been warped by the wishes of their Ascended leader.

 

 

Maybe one approach represents the "majority" of the Legion in the 41st millenium, maybe the other does. We don't know and actually it doesn't really matter- either/any approach is a valid one for a warband.

[Vesper]

Voldorius made it into a Black Library book...

 

The GK too. But I doubt BL is the real problem in this.

[ThisisJimmy]

The way I like to think about it, rightly or wrongly, is that the majority of the Legion maintains their stealth and subterfuge, putting in to effect schemes that take years to come to fruition and are entirely convoluted. Some, however, have been tempted by the lure of Chaos, perhaps intending to use it as an ally (rather than a subject of worship), but have instead become pawns in the game of the gods. In regards to the whole leader issue, I remember them it being said that they are individualistic, and able to achieve the tasks of their mission solo and under extreme circumstances, but not necessarily creating said mission. It would seem to me that even though there is little need for face time with subordinates, someone has to actually create the mission and set the parameters.

 

As a side note, it does seem odd that there are a number of stories where the Alpha Legion are doing exactly what you wouldn't expect them to, fighting a straight up battle. I appreciate that they are still capable of such a fight, but given how synonymous they are with all that cleverness, it does seem slightly peculiar.

[The Colossus]

Voldorius made it into a Black Library book...

 

The GK too. But I doubt BL is the real problem in this.

 

Sorry, I'm not blaming BL at all, I read their stuff a lot and enjoy it to boot. I was trying to say that its no longer just "a mistake on the part of the author we can write off due to him being not that great at writing fluff", but its more of an ingrained part of the fluff now. Assuming you count BL as fluff, which I do.

 

The Alpha Legion have always had access to Daemon Princes (Possessed too) from a game point of view.

[Son of Carnelian]

Seems like the consensus is that the Alpha Legion isn't as organized as some fluff would have me believe. They just do their own thing and sometimes that results in Chaos worship.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, the Alpha Legion do worship Chaos, they just didn't use daemons all that much, unless they'd built up a large Cultist presence, given their distance from the Eye. As such, they do make use of Possessed and Daemon Princes, as they worship Chaos Undivided just as the Iron Warriors do. There's never been any fluff stating that they don't worship Chaos, it's just that people take what happens in Legion as "they weren't corrupted by Chaos initially, therefore they don't worship it". It's been 10,000 years since the Heresy, and they've commonly been described as worshipping Chaos in 40k.

 

As for the "open warfare" thing, they use that commonly as well. After all, even if you manage to infiltrate an enemy force, you'll have to take the fight to them at some point, unless you plan on corrupting every single one of them. One of the key battles listed in the Alpha Legion IA was a siege, they just used their manipulation to ensure that the battle was stacked in their favour.

 

The other thing people need to remember is that just because a faction has a preferred tactic, it doesn't mean that they only ever use that tactic, and never anything else. Blood Angels still do armoured assaults, White Scars make use of infantry, Iron Warriors have rapid-response groups, and the Alpha Legion do stuff other than sneak around and infiltrate places.

[Snejk]

As a side note, it does seem odd that there are a number of stories where the Alpha Legion are doing exactly what you wouldn't expect them to, fighting a straight up battle. I appreciate that they are still capable of such a fight, but given how synonymous they are with all that cleverness, it does seem slightly peculiar.

 

Not really, since stealth, under hand fighting and guerilla tactics won't win you any major war, just force your enemy to commit more troops to an area trying to keep it insurgent free. To win you need to use conventional warfare to destroy the enemy.

 

During the Vietnam wars FNL didn't win the wars, the NVA did. The FNL kept french troops at bay with guerilla warfare, the NVA defeated them in regular warfare.

 

Same thing with the US. The US and her allies were busy keeping South Vietnam "free" from VC and FNL, while North Vietnam built up their conventional forces, and trying to gain controll over more territory in the south and thus end the war, how ever loosing in both the Tet offensive and the Easter offensive in 1972, the later due to conventional bombing of NVA supply lines, and poor NVA tactics. The US just lacked the will to invade the north and end the war. When they left in 1973 the NVA invaded South Vietnam and defeated the ARVN with conventional warfare.

 

So I think it makes perfect sense that some AL warband engage in conventional 40K warfare, with tanks, infantry, dreadnaughts and what not. Use guerilla tactics and infiltration to keep the initiative - waiving an invisible dagger in the enemys face and keep him busy chasing ghosts and shadows and then BANG! Hit them with every Land Raider, Terminator, Vindicator and tactical squad you've got.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's how I see it, like has been pointed out already, every Legion has been fractured to some point or another. The Night Lords, World Eaters and Emperor's Children are the most obvious examples of this. Some will operate one way, some will operate another.

 

But let's take a look at a GW Codex-example. Ghorstangrad. The AL spent centuries infiltrating the Chapter through corrupting the recruits. When it came time to attack, the AL came out of nowhere and started to conventionally attack Ghorstangrad. The turning point was when they activated the brainwashing. In a way, it shows both.

 

Now, Voldorius. Most people read the book and think, well not very Alpha Legion-like. But Voldorius was being hunted. He was doing everything he could to stay alive and achieve his goal of reactivating the Bloodtide. He was on the defensive. But he did manage to trick Khan into fighting a doppleganger and almost killed the White Scars in a trap. He thought the trap would be successful. He was not counting on pursuit.

[Son of Carnelian]

So basically, if I wanted to run an Alpha Legion list based on everything that makes Chaos cool (Princes, spawn, possessed, etc.) I could do so within the fluff by just saying they're an offshoot? Sounds good.

[Kol Saresk]

You don't even have to say they're on offshoot. Space Marines were made for straight-up, in-your-face brutal warfare. The Alpha Legion are unique on how they approach it. They are the Black Ops of the Astartes. And every now and then, even Black Ops has to go for a straight up firefight.

[redmapa]

What defines the AL from others is that the Alpha Legion doesnt search for a weak point in the enemy, they create the weakness in their enemy and exploit it, like how they used the Geno Five Two Chilliad to lure the enemy into a killzone at the begginning of Legion, the enemy doesnt know that they're fighting astartes and that creates a weakness in the overall offensive..Sabotage, Infiltration, Misinformation and Theft are all used to put the enemy in the weakest position possible in order to make every attack efficient..

[Hyaenidae]

You can also say that they've 'gone native', per se. Too much use of the warp as a tool, or exposure to chaotic energies, will corrupt any being, no matter how devouted to their cause. Inquisitor Quixos comes to mind....

[Kol Saresk]

Too much use of the warp as a tool, or exposure to chaotic energies, will corrupt any being, no matter how devouted to their cause. Inquisitor Quixos comes to mind....

I wonder how much longer until we start seeing Grey Knights joining our ranks...

[Hyaenidae]

I'm a firm subscriber to the pre-ward GK fluff. As such, I'm willing to let the Imperium have their 1000 uncorruptable warriors. Gives us a solid fight to look forward to when we torch Terra....

[Kol Saresk]

: blink: I didn't know Ward made it so GK could fall. I thought he made them even more invincible.

[Hyaenidae]

He left gaps and semi-truck sized holes in their fluff, which could (and has, if you take a look at some of the threads down in the =I= subforum) lead to heavy interpertation and assumptions. Dangerous assumptions.

 

Back on topic, I feel that the Alpha Legion are most likely the most fractured fallen Legion, even moreso than even the World Eaters or Emperor's Children, especially since it sounds like there is now the potential for a internal civil war within the Alpha Legion (The Primarchs book) during the Heresy. Some may still be fighting "for the Emperor", hoping to bring down the Imperium to save the universe. Some may be fighting for the Emperor, refusing to go against the Throneworld. Some may have had good intentions originally, but now are utterly corrupt, though they still fight as a Legionairre would. Others may have begun fighting as any Warband would, out in the open, their desire to inflict harm in the name of the Gods overriding their usually sneaky nature. Others have gone the "CIA" route, and operate entirely by themselves to benefit the whole. Others may have just become mercenaries, lending their cunning to the highest bidder.

 

It's one of the primary issues within a 'cell based' combat organization. Without alternating orders from a structured leadership, Cells begin to make interpertations of their own. Decisions are made by Cell leaders to do one thing, while another Cell may do the total opposite, while both believe they are making the singular 'right choice' based on their last direct order prior to their structuring. Conflicting reports from the Imperium ensues, as both cells wage war against the same body. The Imperium see the Legion as 'they do it this way, damn secret squirrel types", when in actuallity, the Legion no longer exists in such a manner any longer. I've seen it multiple times in Iraq and the 'Stan during deployment.... the general public have a very specific view of the Taliban and Al Queida, when in reality, they have been broken down and shuffled and restructured so many times, they no longer resemble their previous incarnations, and have even fought each other in the past over ideologial differences, even though Coalition forces are their primary unified target, and they were originally born from the same body. The sons of Alpharius and Omegon are the same.

 

Everything you have been told about the Alpha Legion IS a lie, because even the Legion no longer knows the truth.

 

Edit: Clarity

[Azarias]

So basically, if I wanted to run an Alpha Legion list based on everything that makes Chaos cool (Princes, spawn, possessed, etc.) I could do so within the fluff by just saying they're an offshoot? Sounds good.

 

Keep in mind that this is, first and foremost, a hobby defined very much by the player. If you want your warband to be a more... secular warband, have princes be represented by a, say, tricked-out Contemptor Dreadnought. Spawns can be represented by some robotic spider stolen from the Dark Mechanicus. You can play by Chaos' rules even if, on the battlefield, your force looks disturbingly free from the Warp's touch.

[Excessus]

Most things have already been said, but I thought that I'd add the fact that Daemonic Possessions like Daemon Princes and posessed provides an additional angle of warfare. The Alpha Legion is known for the unconventional tactics they employ, which would only welcome the extra tactical flexibility of having warp-enhanced marines roaming around the battlefield.

 

Warhammer 40k battles are but a small bit of a big conflict. The daemon princes are most likely forward commanders, entrusted with breaking through the enemy line with a detached force or something, while the "real" commander is behind the lines, directing them from the shadows...

[RapatoR]

Well I think that interpretation of AL as exclusive sneaky marines is utterly wrong.

Surely they use sneaky tactics, but that is one of many approaches.

 

But their symbol is hydra, symbol of variability and adaptation and cleverness (not ability to infiltrate) was appreciated among recruits.

 

Read IA: First contact with Alpharius is not when he and his soldiers infiltrated something, but dozens of small ships luring strike cruiser into minefield and Alpharius charging Horus while under fire.

 

Then IA furher mentions that their battles were well planned: attacks from many directions, keeping options open, never relying on single person, thing or single victory to win the day, he was always prepared with back-up plan, like a flanking force in perfect position, infiltrators struck behind enemy lines at just right moment, they would bargain for allies, encourage treachery within enemy ranks develop networks of spies within populace and so on. Infiltration is one of many tactics, frontal assault would be another tactic. Heck, IA even includes that AL would join forces with aliens or other Traitor Legions.

In 13th Black Crusade AL:

Openly attacked Caliban so DA and all successors came there and fought with AL for barren rock.

Revealed themselves on about a dozen worlds across the Segmentum Obscurus demanding to face the "weakling servants of the dead Emperor". - this might be particularly seen as not AL activity, without broad context, but: Unable to decline such blatant challenges several Chapters are drawn into pointless battle with the Legion, thereby badly delaying Astartes reinforcements.

 

I see AL not as infiltrating, but cunning force. Subtle difference but difference nonetheless.

And I totally see them using chaos, sorceries, deamons and even cult troops, it just adds variety to tactics.

[Kol Saresk]

Well I think that interpretation of AL as exclusive sneaky marines is utterly wrong.

Surely they use sneaky tactics, but that is one of many approaches.

 

But their symbol is hydra, symbol of variability and adaptation and cleverness (not ability to infiltrate) was appreciated among recruits.

 

Read IA: First contact with Alpharius is not when he and his soldiers infiltrated something, but dozens of small ships luring strike cruiser into minefield and Alpharius charging Horus while under fire.

 

Then IA furher mentions that their battles were well planned: attacks from many directions, keeping options open, never relying on single person, thing or single victory to win the day, he was always prepared with back-up plan, like a flanking force in perfect position, infiltrators struck behind enemy lines at just right moment, they would bargain for allies, encourage treachery within enemy ranks develop networks of spies within populace and so on. Infiltration is one of many tactics, frontal assault would be another tactic. Heck, IA even includes that AL would join forces with aliens or other Traitor Legions.

In 13th Black Crusade AL:

Openly attacked Caliban so DA and all successors came there and fought with AL for barren rock.

Revealed themselves on about a dozen worlds across the Segmentum Obscurus demanding to face the "weakling servants of the dead Emperor". - this might be particularly seen as not AL activity, without broad context, but: Unable to decline such blatant challenges several Chapters are drawn into pointless battle with the Legion, thereby badly delaying Astartes reinforcements.

 

I see AL not as infiltrating, but cunning force. Subtle difference but difference nonetheless.

And I totally see them using chaos, sorceries, deamons and even cult troops, it just adds variety to tactics.

;) My hero.