Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 All you say is true. But. It has been established AL background from the IA onwards that ARE sneaky. They lie, cheat, and steal, and they employ mortal humans to lie, cheat, and steal for them, in order to stack the deck in their favor before they head into that conventional fight. The whole Infiltration theme is nothing more than the one way in which their tactical breadth and subtlety can be actually represented on our 4'x6' playing area. The trouble with that is that not enough people realize, or read into it enough to see, that fluff =/= rules. Ergo, you have issues like ours where Alpha Legion are the infiltrating faction; another example is the tired refrain about Night Lords being the Raptor faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 So basically, if I wanted to run an Alpha Legion list based on everything that makes Chaos cool (Princes, spawn, possessed, etc.) I could do so within the fluff by just saying they're an offshoot? Sounds good. As others have said, they don't even have to be an offshoot. The Alpha Legion do worship Chaos, and they do make use of daemons (well, possessions). Until I see some background claiming otherwise, the Alpha Legion are still a dedicated Chaos Legion, worshipping the Pantheon, they just don't focus their worship in a way that commonly results in Cult Marines. So, icons: yes. Daemons: yes. Possessed: yes. Daemon Princes: yes. Spawn: yes. They might not always be close to the Eye, but you don't need to be in the Eye of Terror to attract the gaze of the Gods. An Alpha Legion leader will still be blessed by his patrons on the Eastern Fringe with mutations and/or Daemonhood, just as failures will be cursed with Spawndom, and rituals to create Possessed will still create a possessed being. It won't be as easy as being within the Eye of Terror, but it's still entirely possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 All you say is true. But. It has been established AL background from the IA onwards that ARE sneaky. They lie, cheat, and steal, and they employ mortal humans to lie, cheat, and steal for them, in order to stack the deck in their favor before they head into that conventional fight. The whole Infiltration theme is nothing more than the one way in which their tactical breadth and subtlety can be actually represented on our 4'x6' playing area. The trouble with that is that not enough people realize, or read into it enough to see, that fluff =/= rules. Ergo, you have issues like ours where Alpha Legion are the infiltrating faction; another example is the tired refrain about Night Lords being the Raptor faction. Well I think that all this falls into category "cunning" more than "sneaky", but fair point there. I completely agree with you. It was my biggest issue about AL, that infiltration was major rule to represent AL on tabletop. But it gives sense as infiltrate was there to represent that they: -attack from all sides -do not deploy in usual ways But it can be easily put in this way: As you say Legions are being stereotyped. But that is far from the truth. For example you see IW using ONLY siege tactics to win the battle? Or NL relying only or terror tactics? Heck a space marine credited for reuniting of NLs during 13th Black Crusade is former Red Corsair. I am pretty sure that at least one warband of every Legion used subterfuge and sneaky tactics at least once in their history and surely I am being pretty conservative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 a space marine credited for reuniting of NLs during 13th Black Crusade is former Red Corsair. First time I hear it. Who are you talking about and where is it from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 He's referring to Variel from Void Stalker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I don't even understand why this is a question. This isn't meant to be mean I just don't get it. AL are so paranoid the grunts don't know why they do anything re: Serpent Beneath. A and O are playing silly bugger paranoid games etc in 30k. As soon as the influence of A and O wanes and the grunts are left to their own devices. Chaos whispers to them and bam chaos. Even NL who scorn chaos are corrupted. Also if Alpharius wanted to make the cabal victory condition true. He completely failed. So what now? Perhaps in despair he is now fallen. Or guilliman killed him whichever. 40k AL are as loyal as Abaddon. They have no cause to even fight for. Except if they want to destroy the Imperium. All attempts to destroy chaos are now impossible. Should A or O true intention ever become known (kill Chaos or the Imperium) they have failed either way and now just fight the long war. 2nd ed AL fluff is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Yogi, the Alpha Legion - Cabal cooperation already ended in Deliverance Lost, 10k before the "current date". They pursue the "third" option...their own... The 2nd ed fluff from the codex is very very limited and short. Not much is explained or fleshed out about them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 @excessus Yeah I have read DL. And yeah it is their own option, but it is still in line with the cabals view. Even if they stop listening to the cabal. They have been manipulated towards Horus. Otherwise why become traitors at that precise moment? You could argue they did as the cabal said to hide their motives, but no one even knows they heeded the cabal. So like why?? Something as intrigue filled as this shouldn't be covered by more then one author IMO. So to sum as I see it. AL are: 1. Following the spirit of the cabal mission. -Mission Failure Horus lost. 2. Just your perfect garden variety traitors. -Mission Failure Long War. My preference. 3. Herp derp double agents. - Mission Success - Except huge parts of the legion are chaos worshippers now. 4. OR A and O are playing games against each other. Everything else, cabal etc is just a smoke screen for this. (this is the way GW is heading IMO) - Unknown who won, but Alpha legion is not the top dog. Failed. 5. Everything you have been told is a lie. AL is as mysterious as the missing primarchs. - No mission. So yeah awesome. In all eventualities large parts of the legion worship chaos now. 2nd edition fluff for AL is concise and to the point. This is the reason I collect Black Legion/world eaters now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Well, I'm not arguing against the fact that Alpha Legion are chaos worshippers or the fact that they are corrupted, I am firmly behind it! Though, in fairness, they were always closer to Horus than any other primarch, and even the Emperor... They knew the big E was chasing a pipedream and didn't agree fully with it, if they hadn't been contacted by the Cabal and Horus would have come to them, they would most likely have joined him anyway imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuclear Fridge Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Codex SM & codex BA ? Matt Ward. Period. "Hey, I have terrible hair and a trashy beard... and I work for GW directly... must mean I can out-do Dan Abnett, Sandy Mitchell, or A D-B on prose coolness, surely!!!" Um... maybe not... Given that each Traitor Legion has its own style, and its own (often massively ret-conned) reason for turning renegade, maybe just stating that 'wow! I'm so bad-ass evil and able to do neat evil-ness things, watch me do something bad to these cute puppies!!!' does not cut it any more. Just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Yeah, I am of the mind that maybe, just maybe, GW should consider leaving the fluff writing to the professionals and just focus on the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Yeah, I am of the mind that maybe, just maybe, GW should consider leaving the fluff writing to the professionals and just focus on the game. In terms of 40k, GW came first, and could be considered the "professionals". They just suck at it now, with some exceptions. Most of their good fluff people have gone now, mores the pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 What once was, will not always be. For now, BL is the professional branch of fluff writing in the 40k world. Even Andy Chambers is dipping into BL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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