Grey Knight Purifier Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 So a good friend of mine just got into 40k. I've therefore been flipping through Codex: DA, and I have come to the conclusion the Cypher is The Lion. This is probably just conjecture on my part, but is there anything to back this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Old fluff has the Lion slumbering in a chamber only known to the Emperor (although possibly also known by the Watchers) down in the depths of the Rock completely disconnected from other portions of the space fortress. While this isn't absolutely concrete, because they could choose to change this, I'll go out on a limb and say that the Lion is the last person Cypher could be. I'd put a new incarnation of the Emperor in as a possibility before I'd include the Lion when speculating on Cypher's identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Seeing as how Cypher has fought for Chaos, I strongly doubt that it could be either the Lion or the Emperor. So, it'd have to be some other Fallen Angel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Previous thread Previously previous thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 LOL...cypher is a position, not a person. Certainly, the lion never held that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Dwr Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 LOL...cypher is a position, not a person. Certainly, the lion never held that position. Well it is now in an "it was" kind of way but wasn't then in a "it's a person" kinda way, if you know what i mean. :) Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 LOL...yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I have this saved purely for when someone asks if the Lion is Cypher ;) This is my argument as to why this theory is false. It was written to counter the best argument I heard for why the Lion is Cypher. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree with the hypothesis that The Lion is Cypher based on several reasons. The basis of my argument will be that The Lion cannot be Cypher based, entirely, on actual, I will ignore any fan fiction or fancies, except where they require discussion to prove wrong. My first point comes from Codex: Angels of Death. This Codex has accused of not containing any relevant information due to age, however, this is, fundamentally, wrong. A piece of fluff, once written, is accurate until it is retconned by a later publication from Games Workshop, the Black Library and Forgeworld, and even whether or not the Black Library can retcon is a separate issue altogether. This piece of background has not been retconned in either the Third or Fourth edition codexes or any written novel or Forgeworld publication. "The only people who know about the disastrous events that took place on Caliban all those millennia ago are the Emperor and the Dark Angels themselves. The Dark Angels will never reveal the truth to anyone outside the Chapter for they could not bear others to know the truth of their terrible shame. And all the while, deep within his cell, Luther, the betrayer, speaks of what is to come. Yet even the highest ranking Dark Angels do not know everything, although they may think that they do. Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest Secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against it's enemies." - p.14, Codex: Angels of Death on The Lion This clearly shows that the Lion is in the Rock and is sleeping. Why? For how long? This is not answered. It should also be known that Luther, also inside the Rock, is commenting that The Lion is close by and is coming to return soon. Close by could indicate that hes in the same Vessel as he is in. However, as this piece of background is not either a) developed or :) re-written/retconned we can assume by inference that the Lion is, in fact, still in The Rock. That this piece of fluff is still accurate despite the age. I now will look at The Lion in established Fluff. It is known he favoured swords as his weapon of choice and he has been known to wield two weapons of the same type concurrently, these being twin swords. (reference: Gav Thorpe’s ‘The Lion’ The Primarchs, Black Library, 2012). Cypher is known to wield a pair of pistols as well as carrying a sword that he never, ever draws. IF Cypher is the Lion, why has he not taken up the weapon of choice that he preferred? The Lion is also a Primarch, which means he is a heck of a lot bigger than a Marine both taller and broader than a standard Marine. This particular fact has been established throughout the Horus Heresy Series with reference to Horus, Fulgrim, Magnus, Leman Russ and the other Primarchs. This means that Cypher, described as a Marine, cannot be The Lion as he is shorter, he is an average Marine height. We can conclude that, if he was the same size as a Primarch, this would be mentioned by observers and be a defining feature of Cypher. Yes, one could argue that the warp has changed our perception of his size, however, surely a Librarian would have seen the warp fluctuating around him and changing his size, this has not been commented on and therefore we can assume by inference that this is not the case. Plus, it is established that the Lion hated Chaos and would not willingly allow this kind of manipulation of his body. In the old OOP Eye of Terror Campaign Codex there is a conversation with Abaddon and The Voice of the Emperor who, it has been established, wielded two pistols, carried a sword he never used and wore black armour with robes, ie: Cypher. I don't think the Lion would tolerate Abaddon as he did not tolerate traitors within his Legion. In fact, when he believes loyalists are traitors, he treats them as such and does not do deals with them. This indicates that Cypher has his own agenda, which includes deals with traitors, therefore he is not the Lion. Now, in fallen Angels, the novel (spoilers) we have in Luthers office Cypher , Israfael , Astellan , Zahariel , and Luther. Luther has warding spells written on himself and Israfael gets upset and starts building his power, he wants to notify the Lion about certain actions and Cypher puts a plasma pistol shot into him. This is the Lord Cypher committing this action, who, if we recall, was the last Knight of Lupus. This Marine/Knight other than Zahariel, the most likely marine to become Cypher we all know and love to hate. The only other marine is Zahariel, which is likely based on his psychic potential, who takes up the mantle and leads the fallen. The thing with the shadows is likely to be the power he has, his "bullet-time" ability explains this and how he escapes the clutches of the DA. Lastly, theres the fact that the DA’s are hunting Cypher, why would they hunt their Primarch? Unless they are the traitors? This opens an entirely new kettle of fish, but I do not believe they are as it is well established that they are loyal to the Imperium, and love and honour their Primarch. If the Lion lives, why does he not come back to his beloved sons, his little brothers? The evidence overwhelmingly points to the fact the Lion is not Cypher and that Cypher is, likely, to be either the current, in 30K timeline, Lord Cypher or probably Zahariel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I quite agree with everything barring two comments: Close by could indicate that hes in the same Vessel as he is in. However, as this piece of background is not either a) developed or ;) re-written/retconned we can assume by inference that the Lion is, in fact, still in The Rock. That this piece of fluff is still accurate despite the age. Close by i take it to be a time reference, not a distance one. Thats my opinion though. Lastly, theres the fact that the DA’s are hunting Cypher, why would they hunt their Primarch? Unless they are the traitors? This opens an entirely new kettle of fish, but I do not believe they are as it is well established that they are loyal to the Imperium, and love and honour their Primarch. If the Lion lives, why does he not come back to his beloved sons, his little brothers? If the case was that El Johnson is Cypher, they would have no idea who they hunt. So the point of them been traitor by virtue of hunting their primarch is moot. Again IMHO. If indeed Cypher is a member of the Legion of old (would he be a fallen otherwise?) his name is recorded in the book of salvation, and thus though we dont the DA know the name of their nemesis, making the point of Johnson been Cypher even more moot. My 2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Lord Cypher is the last Knight of Lupas from Fallen Angel. Is he not? He was with Luther when the crap hit the fan on Caliban. He was given that post by the Lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 I quite agree with everything barring two comments: Close by could indicate that hes in the same Vessel as he is in. However, as this piece of background is not either a) developed or :) re-written/retconned we can assume by inference that the Lion is, in fact, still in The Rock. That this piece of fluff is still accurate despite the age. Close by i take it to be a time reference, not a distance one. Thats my opinion though. Lastly, theres the fact that the DA’s are hunting Cypher, why would they hunt their Primarch? Unless they are the traitors? This opens an entirely new kettle of fish, but I do not believe they are as it is well established that they are loyal to the Imperium, and love and honour their Primarch. If the Lion lives, why does he not come back to his beloved sons, his little brothers? If the case was that El Johnson is Cypher, they would have no idea who they hunt. So the point of them been traitor by virtue of hunting their primarch is moot. Again IMHO. If indeed Cypher is a member of the Legion of old (would he be a fallen otherwise?) his name is recorded in the book of salvation, and thus though we dont the DA know the name of their nemesis, making the point of Johnson been Cypher even more moot. My 2cents. If he is el'Jonson, why not reveal himself? surely they would stop hunting him? why would the traitors follow Cypher? why would he not destroy them? Really, theres too many holes in the argument for Cypher being Jonson. As for time/distance...yea, could be either I suppose. But, considering that we know he is in the Rock, distance makes more sense. Or could be both: ie he is close by and the time for his awakening is close by as well DAG: we do not know for sure who Cypher is. What if the 'current' in 30k timeline Cypher dies before or during Caliban? Could easily be another Fallen who takes up the mantle. But yes, Lord Cypher is the last knight, however, we are discussing the persona of Cypher the Fallen Angel here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Cyper is 1000% not the Lion. We know this. Everyone would if they knew all of the fluff. Beyond that, the DA have had Cypher in their possession on at least one occasion, and I am pretty sure that they might, just might have noticed that Cypher was a lot punier than a Primarch is supposed to be. "Unhand me traitors! I am the Primarch! The Lion! Let me go!" "Huh. I always thought he'd be bigger in person." :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Knight Purifier Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 Huh. I thought there was some controversey about the DA and the Fallen. Like something about some Fallen not really being traitors? I guess I just went from there. Oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodle Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Kaldor Draigo is Cypher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Dwr Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Lord Cypher is the last Knight of Lupas from Fallen Angel. Is he not? He was with Luther when the crap hit the fan on Caliban. He was given that post by the Lion. Until we get the next HH book which tells us what happens during the destruction of Caliban, this is something we can only speculate about. Yes, there was a 'Lord Cypher' on Caliban, but this was a position gifted to an individual in order to maintain the history of the Order. My biggest issue with the individual in Fallen Angels is that he is a mere man, not a Space Marine as Cypher would seem to be. Ok, so he could have been augmented like other members of the Order were when the Emperor arrived, but it is said that these augmentations will never make a man as powerful as a Space Marine. Yeah you could argue that he could have been enhanced further by Chaos to make him a Space Marine parallel, but this would seal cypher as a heretic for receiving the gifts of Chaos. Part of the mystery around Cypher is that we do not know his intentions, we have no solid evidence for him being good or evil. he has his own agenda. If we go throwing some Chaos taint on him, it would seal his fate as being evil (IMO). Huh. I thought there was some controversey about the DA and the Fallen. Like something about some Fallen not really being traitors? I guess I just went from there. Oops. Not all the fallen are traitors. As far as some of them are concerned, they were under the impression that the Lion had turned against them yet they were still fighting for the Emperor. Take Astellan from Angels of Darkness as a good example - he still believes devoutly in the emperor and the great crusade to purge the universe so is still loyalist to a certain extent. if anything, chaps like him are more loyal than the loyalist Space Marines. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Take Astellan from Angels of Darkness as a good example - he still believes devoutly in the emperor and the great crusade to purge the universe so is still loyalist to a certain extent. if anything, chaps like him are more loyal than the loyalist Space Marines. Al Or self centered or deluded or headstrong, we dont know for sure. Its like saying a crusader promoted the cause of Christianity (not the church/human institution,i refer to the core beliefs of faith) because he believed that killing unbelievers was the best thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Astellan is shown NOT to be loyal to the Emperor. He betrayed the Imperium FOR Luther. Also, the newly appointed Cypher was not a Space Marine? Where is the information regarding this? I believed he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DIA! Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Kaldor Draigo is Cypher. First of all LOL! Ok, I believe cypher cannot be the lion, nor the emperor. I remember reading that all sightings of cypher is closer and closer to terra. And that some, maybe cypher, believes that plunging his lion sword (the sword he has never used) into the emperor, it Will revive him. I do not remember where I read this, before you ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Kaldor Draigo is Cypher. First of all LOL! Ok, I believe cypher cannot be the lion, nor the emperor. I remember reading that all sightings of cypher is closer and closer to terra. And that some, maybe cypher, believes that plunging his lion sword (the sword he has never used) into the emperor, it Will revive him. I do not remember where I read this, before you ask Yep,thats in the dexes,even in the 4th ed one it writes that there is a pattern of his movement towards terra and the big E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Dwr Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Astellan is shown NOT to be loyal to the Emperor. He betrayed the Imperium FOR Luther. Also, the newly appointed Cypher was not a Space Marine? Where is the information regarding this? I believed he was. Perhaps i read differently into what Astellan was all about, but i still see him as loyal to the great crusade and mankind. A little deluded by 40k standards, but still not a big ball of chaotic evil which most people believe the fallen to be. As to Cypher not being a marine, i simply came to the logical conclusion. You can only receive gene seed at a young age, and i'd say that Cypher in Fallen Angels is too old to receive the full astartes modification. He struck me as being a bit older than 12, ergo he couldn't have been turning into a full marine. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I think the limit been thirteen.Will check the old index astartes though. EDIT:Make that twelve.Ergo that means he would have been at the limit.Go figure how a twelve year old can hold such a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Decent of Angels changes that though. When the Emperor arrived, I believe many of the Order were transformed, not all were such as Luther because of age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 That is correct. Those who were young enough were implanted with geneseed and underwent the full process of becoming true Space Marines. Those who were too old, like Luther, were merely augmented. I forget which group Cypher fell into, or if it was even mentioned at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I do not believe its mentioned, but chances are he was too old, making it more likely he will die and Zahariel will take up the mantle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DIA! Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I do not believe its mentioned, but chances are he was too old, making it more likely he will die and Zahariel will take up the mantle. You know, while I was reading DoA, I thought for a while that zahariel was gonna become cypher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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