How worthwhile are Assassins?

[MeatGrinder]

As the topic says, I've been toying with the idea of using assasins in my gk lists, but I'm wondering how viable they are. Currently I'm planning a draigowing style army and I think the incluson of one of them, possibly leaning more towards a vindicare, would be worthwhile. Otherwise would another rifleman dread be preferable?

 

I'm fairly new to Gk, but have played several terminator-heavy lists before, such as loganwing and vanilla termi/scout lists in 4th ed. What are your thoughts?

[lordmetroid]

I love the Vindicare, it saves my paladins over and over again by targetting specific models, destryong invurnable saves or downing land raiders full of evil.

[the jeske]

not needed in a draigo wing unless its some sort of LR meta . a rifleman would help better . in general you shouldnt have points to buy a vindicar for a draigowing unless your playing 2k+pts , but at 2kpts you shouldnt be playing draigo wing because its not very optimal.

[Lord Falkor]

i sometimes use an assassin with my imperial guard army when i know the other player is gonna take abaddon and some termie's

i have an eversor assassin if i get the charge i usually take out the entire squad in 2 turns.

 

i know its only 4 termies abaddons with but for the points its worth it

[Toasterfree]

the cally assassin is great for taking out heavy weapons units. DS right into some cover and flame them, then go to ground for the game for that 2+ cover save. either deal with the assassin, or lose everything in the back field.

[adamv6]

I take a vindicare if possible.

 

Had a game against CSM with Abbadon, my vindicare took his invuln and 2 wounds off him in 2 rounds. For me him just doing that made his points (he is 145, killing half of Abbadon is 137.5)

[Hanska]

For me him just doing that made his points (he is 145, killing half of Abbadon is 137.5)

This is the basic mistake IMO people make when they think of vindicare. When it comes to him it's not all about how many points does he kill.

I see him as a support unit and value him on how he helps others in the list.

 

Example: OP runs a termie list. How do you count the value of vindicare if he spends every shot sniping off hidden fists/claws to make whole units a fraction of the threat in CC for 2+/5++ termies? Or sniping KFF-mek(s) on a kan-spam?

[Zeratil]

Jeske is right that most of the time a psyfleman will serve you better, but the vindicare is still very viable because of the threat it poses. It's a great unit for soaking up enemy fire that would otherwise be used on your transports. If you like assassins you will not gimp yourself by running them. The callidus is okay - if 6th ed allows her to assault after DS she will be amazing (and makes transports easier to kill), but at the moment she just doesn't do that much damage when most things are in metal boxes.

[Toasterfree]

6th is not going to change the rules of deep strike. DS has been the way it has been now since i have been playing (3e). the cally is by far a better option since she can take out a unit of long fangs (or some other exposed unit) in one shot placed right and they get no cover save.

 

the vindi cant snipe off claws/fists but it can take out those nasty invils. and if its a multi wound unit its still alive, its best use is goin to be against large armor (average roll on 2d6 being 7(*2) being 14). if you have psyfile dread you dont really need the vindi unless you are playing against LR spam, but even then psycannons can take those out. psycannons are also going to take out dreads, and cans.

 

its all about the disruption that you want. cally will make the shoot behind them, vindi will make them shoot at you. but TBH, vindi eh. max he will kill in any game is 7 models, cally can take out 7 when she lands and fires her first shot. if she isnt killed after that, she could kill 7 more, and then 7 more, and then............................

[Morollan]

6th is not going to change the rules of deep strike. DS has been the way it has been now since i have been playing (3e). the cally is by far a better option since she can take out a unit of long fangs (or some other exposed unit) in one shot placed right and they get no cover save.

 

We have no idea what 6th will bring. There are plenty of rumours about changes to DS but will have to wait and see.

 

the vindi cant snipe off claws/fists

 

Yes it can. See Deadshot (pg 53 Codex GK)

 

its best use is goin to be against large armor (average roll on 2d6 being 7(*2) being 14). if you have psyfile dread you dont really need the vindi unless you are playing against LR spam, but even then psycannons can take those out. psycannons are also going to take out dreads, and cans.

 

The vindicare will take out anything that a Psyfleman can take out but will do so far easier due to AP1 and better armour pen. Only real exception is squadrons where more shots will generally be better than a single strike.

 

its all about the disruption that you want. cally will make the shoot behind them, vindi will make them shoot at you. but TBH, vindi eh. max he will kill in any game is 7 models, cally can take out 7 when she lands and fires her first shot. if she isnt killed after that, she could kill 7 more, and then 7 more, and then............................

 

Callidus can be deadly but you do run the risk of taking out whatever unit you deploy next to in your turn and leaving yourself vulnerable in the enemys turn. Also, the neural shredder is of limited use against many armies with high LD.

[adamv6]

This is the basic mistake IMO people make when they think of vindicare

 

Hanska, I also think of the vindicare as a support unit, most of the time I use him to stop armour in its tracks or remove characters / invulns.

 

It was just to make a point to show his cost is worth worthwhile in the army list.

 

but TBH, vindi eh. max he will kill in any game is 7 models

 

And if those 7 models happen to be a LR, 2 characters, a rhino and 3 terminators, you have just cleaned out more points and KPs that you could have dreamt possible.

 

I really like the fact that people are petrified of what the Vindi can do, so sit trying to shoot it all game. I played a game recently where he took 2 squads of GreyHunters shooting at him, and seeing as he was in a bastion, he got 2++ B) Happy days :P

[the jeske]

The vindicare will take out anything that a Psyfleman can take out but will do so far easier due to AP1 and better armour pen. Only real exception is squadrons where more shots will generally be better than a single strike.

a rifle man kills more nobz , more nid warriors , more plague marines [str8=no FnP] . so its not always better . against tanks with cover the str8 shotsx4 are better then a single one which technicly always does something[but on +4 gets stoped by cover].

[Gentlemanloser]

A Psyfleman is a Bludgeon.

 

A Vindicare is a Scaple.

 

Both are effective. At different tasks.

[nighthaunter666]

I always use a vindicare in my GK armies. In an apocalypse game my vindicare took out a shadowsword in a single shot, rolled a 6 for vehicle damage and then two more sixes; three chain reactions. Goodbye shadowsword in the 1st turn! In another game he shot down Skulltaker, a Great Unclean One and then took out a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch.

Also take a Techmarine and you get the rather useful Bolster Defences; Bolster a ruin, stick the Vindicare in it and combined with Stealth you get a 2+ cover save!

[Gentlemanloser]

Vindicare gets hit by a Krak missile.

 

Vindicare rolls a 1 to save.

 

*poof*

 

:P

[Abyssel]

The odds of rolling a 1 are slim, but here is the thing.

 

You guys have it stuck in your head that the vindicare is the kill all be all model. No, he is a tool, a tool when put to good use and prioritized will make your army better as a whole. Take on an army by himself? No, but what he can do is strategically pick off models that can cause problems. He is a tool with a multitude of uses that, when applied properly, can make the rest of your army better. Use him to pop off a fist in an assault squad before your terminators go in for the kill out of the land raider, Use him to kill that lascannon that can threaten your rhino's, use him to negate the invul of a special HQ that can slap your face in CC, like calgar or lysander. The list goes on and on.

 

People like to play wound shenanigans when they have something special to hide behind many models, like a KFF. Use him to deny that crap, so it takes away the opponents advantage, than you can hit the rest of their army and better yourself.

 

He is a tool to help the rest of your army, not a lone soldier who can kill everything.

 

I run him with 2 Psyfleman Dreads, he takes care of big things like LR's, Psy dreads take care of transports. Deny the enemy mobility and the game is partly yours.

[Gentlemanloser]

The odds of rolling a 1 are slim

 

1 in 6.

 

The same as rolling a 6. ^_^

[Toasterfree]

The odds of rolling a 1 are slim

 

1 in 6.

 

The same as rolling a 6. ^_^

qft

[Abyssel]

Or a 16.6%~ chance.

[Toasterfree]

the point that he is making is that it is the same chance of rolling any number on a d6. its not slim since they are all equal. if there was a difference in variance, then it could be slim, but getting any 1 number on a d6 is 16.6%. therefore not slim

[Abyssel]

If they're focus firing at the vindicare than they are not firing on other things, he still serves his purpose as a tool to help the rest of the army, be it as a punching bag or other wise. At that point he becomes a psychological tool to intimidate.

[Gentlemanloser]

Krak missile at a 40 point Rhino, or 145 point Assassin?

 

:)

[Inquisitor Fox]

Anything that throws a wrench in the game plan of your opponent is good, and for several reasons. First, it forces your opponent to quit playing "his game." If he has a plan, and you begin to selectively remove units from his plan, not only does he not get what he wants, now he has a forced decision. To continue on his original, now gimped, game plan, or to adjust his plan to something sub-optimal that he may not even be equipped to do. Second, it's psychological warfare. What and where will the assassins strike? What will they remove or mess up? Yes they may be good for only one or two strikes a game, but if you get to pick when and where that happens... well... it's simply a mark in your favor.

 

You have planned your game and your army around the fact that an assassin will show up, mess up some stuff, then get wacked. If you lose the assassin your army isn't hosed. If your assassin takes out a few select characters or units though, your opponent's army may become hosed. They're a surgical tool... it's up to you to be the surgeon and determine when and how best to use them to inflict the maximum damage, be it points of units, select keystones of their army, or your opponents head.

[Toasterfree]

If they're focus firing at the vindicare than they are not firing on other things, he still serves his purpose as a tool to help the rest of the army, be it as a punching bag or other wise. At that point he becomes a psychological tool to intimidate.

same with the cally, this disrupts the back field and will either divert units AWAY from you, or pobbily expose some rear armor

 

Krak missile at a 40 point Rhino, or 145 point Assassin?

 

;)

bad example. cause for that matter you wouldnt fire a 135 dread at them either.

[Gentlemanloser]

bad example. cause for that matter you wouldnt fire a 135 dread at them either.

 

I don't get it? :)