"I've been expecting you"

[mjc]

Recently at our gaming group we have run into a couple of situations that are not very clear in regards to Coteaz's "I've been expecting you" ability.

 

1. If Coteaz is within a vehicle with fire points do you measure the 12" from the fire point or the vehicle hull?

2. If Coteaz is in vehicle that has weapons, can it shoot as well?

3. If Coteaz is in a vehicle with no fire points does it still apply?

4. Is the 12" measured from the single model that has deep striked and scattered and the remainder of the squad has not yet been placed on the board or do you measure after the entire deep strike squad has been placed on the board?

 

All input is appreciated. Thank you.

[muadib02]

1. t does not work inside a vehicle as per the BRB FAQ

 

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire

points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special

rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66)

A: No.

 

2. The vehicle is an independent unit, and does not benefit from his special rules

3. See number 1

4. Im fairly certain you measure from the closes model after the deep strike is resolved.

[dswanick]

Some tough questions here. Coteaz's "I've been expecting you" special ability is not, itself, a Shooting Attack. It simply allows an out-of-turn Shooting attack under specific conditions. I will try and answer the questions along with rating how easy it is to answer.

1. If Coteaz is within a vehicle with fire points do you measure the 12" from the fire point or the vehicle hull?

Easy: All special rules which require measuring to/from a model Embarked in a transport are measured to the transport's hull, instead. BRB, Pg.66

2. If Coteaz is in vehicle that has weapons, can it shoot as well?

Harder: Coteaz's rule says that he "and his unit" can fire. Generally, this is interpreted as any unit Coteaz is attached to. Interpretting it to mean a trasnport in which Coteaz is Embarked is a stretch.

3. If Coteaz is in a vehicle with no fire points does it still apply?

Hardest: No. Per the BRB FAQ v1.5 - "Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66) A: No.". And as the special rule requires line of sight in order to allow the unit a Shooting Attack, without it being a Shooting Attack itself, the rule doesn't work from a transport - with or without firepoints.

4. Is the 12" measured from the single model that has deep striked and scattered and the remainder of the squad has not yet been placed on the board or do you measure after the entire deep strike squad has been placed on the board?

After the first model is places, and before the remainder of the unit is deployed.

"Q: When are the shooting attacks from Inquisitor Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule fired? (p45)

A: They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target is placed on the board. Once the shooting attacks have been resolved, the unit can complete its move. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, this will be after the scatter has been resolved." - C:GK FAQ v1.2

[Morollan]

4. Is the 12" measured from the single model that has deep striked and scattered and the remainder of the squad has not yet been placed on the board or do you measure after the entire deep strike squad has been placed on the board?

After the first model is places, and before the remainder of the unit is deployed.

"Q: When are the shooting attacks from Inquisitor Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule fired? (p45)

A: They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target is placed on the board. Once the shooting attacks have been resolved, the unit can complete its move. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, this will be after the scatter has been resolved." - C:GK FAQ v1.2

 

I'd have to disagree with that. The FAQ requires the unit to be placed on the table, not just one model. I think the reference to DS is for an occasion when the DS target point is within 12" but the scatter takes it out of range.

[Jacinda]

4. Is the 12" measured from the single model that has deep striked and scattered and the remainder of the squad has not yet been placed on the board or do you measure after the entire deep strike squad has been placed on the board?

After the first model is places, and before the remainder of the unit is deployed.

"Q: When are the shooting attacks from Inquisitor Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule fired? (p45)

A: They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target is placed on the board. Once the shooting attacks have been resolved, the unit can complete its move. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, this will be after the scatter has been resolved." - C:GK FAQ v1.2

 

I'd have to disagree with that. The FAQ requires the unit to be placed on the table, not just one model. I think the reference to DS is for an occasion when the DS target point is within 12" but the scatter takes it out of range.

I think you are saying the same thing. The scatter is not fully resolved until the whole unit is placed. They could still mishap due to scatter even if the first model is placed in a valid area. Between that and the requirement that the unit be placed it is pretty clear to me that you need the whole unit on the board before it can be the target.

[dswanick]

4. Is the 12" measured from the single model that has deep striked and scattered and the remainder of the squad has not yet been placed on the board or do you measure after the entire deep strike squad has been placed on the board?

After the first model is places, and before the remainder of the unit is deployed.

"Q: When are the shooting attacks from Inquisitor Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule fired? (p45)

A: They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target is placed on the board. Once the shooting attacks have been resolved, the unit can complete its move. If the unit is arriving by Deep Strike, this will be after the scatter has been resolved." - C:GK FAQ v1.2

 

I'd have to disagree with that. The FAQ requires the unit to be placed on the table, not just one model. I think the reference to DS is for an occasion when the DS target point is within 12" but the scatter takes it out of range.

Nope. The rule, with the FAQ, is very clear. There are two cases where a unit can arrive from Reserve - 1. walking on from a table edge (normal Reserve, Outflank) and 2. a variation on Deep Strike reserve.

In case 1, where a unit arrives by walking on from a table edge -

"ARRIVING FROM RESERVES

When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unless it's deep striking or outflanking). Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal." - BRB, Pg.94.

This tells me that the first model moved on to the table is moved as if from a position just off the table, and when the model's final position is determined (but before the second model is moved) the shooting attack occurs - since you don't (per the BRB) place the whole unit and then move it, and the IBEY rule says the shooting attack happens before the unit completes it's move. Now I could see the interpretation that the shots occur after all of the models have completed their move, but before the unit's move is "finalized" but isn't that splitting a purely rhetorical hair as the unit's move is completed by the movement of the last model?

In case 2, where a unit arrives by Deep Strike -

the rule is crystal clear, the shot occurs after the Scatter dice roll is resolved. The steps for Deep Strike are :

1. Place one model from the Arriving unit anywhere with certain restrictions.

2. Roll for Scatter.

3. Move the model to the indicated position.

4. place all other models in the unit around the first model as specified in the Deep Strike rules.

Step #3 is the resolution of the Scatter roll, so the IBEY Shooting Attack occurs after step 3 and before step 4.

In Case #2, it is clear that the IBEY occurs after the first model has been placed on the table, so it seems resonable to me that it should happen this way in Case #1 as well.

[Morollan]

Sorry, still disagree. None of what you quoted gets around the fact that IBEY requires the unit to be placed on the board. Not individual models. With regard to the DS, IBEY simply says "after scatter has been resolved" but it still requires the placement of the unit on the table.

[dswanick]

Sorry, still disagree. None of what you quoted gets around the fact that IBEY requires the unit to be placed on the board. Not individual models. With regard to the DS, IBEY simply says "after scatter has been resolved" but it still requires the placement of the unit on the table.

That's fine. After all, this is the same codex with rules that can be interrpreted to allow infinite recursion of Deep Strike Mishaps. :cuss It doesn't surpprise me that the rules are so :) in other interactions with Reserve deployment.

[Morollan]

Sorry, still disagree. None of what you quoted gets around the fact that IBEY requires the unit to be placed on the board. Not individual models. With regard to the DS, IBEY simply says "after scatter has been resolved" but it still requires the placement of the unit on the table.

That's fine. After all, this is the same codex with rules that can be interrpreted to allow infinite recursion of Deep Strike Mishaps. :cuss It doesn't surpprise me that the rules are so :) in other interactions with Reserve deployment.

 

Well I think we can all agree that GW should hire a decent editor, preferably with English as a first language. The current rulebook looks like it was written by John Prescott (which will mean nothing to anyone outside the UK - think a bigger version OF GW Bush with a similar command of the English language).

[Valerian]

Sorry, still disagree. None of what you quoted gets around the fact that IBEY requires the unit to be placed on the board. Not individual models. With regard to the DS, IBEY simply says "after scatter has been resolved" but it still requires the placement of the unit on the table.

 

Agreed with Morollan. Place model on table, figure out scatter, surround model with the rest of the unit that is arriving with him, then figure out if any of those models are within 12". Pretty standard stuff for this game, really.

 

V

[dswanick]

Well I think we can all agree that GW should hire a decent editor, preferably with English as a first language. The current rulebook looks like it was written by John Prescott (which will mean nothing to anyone outside the UK - think a bigger version OF GW Bush with a similar command of the English language).

Come on now, it's not rocket surgery. Just check "the Google" and you'll see that he was often mis-underestimated... :)

 

Anyway

Sorry, still disagree. None of what you quoted gets around the fact that IBEY requires the unit to be placed on the board. Not individual models. With regard to the DS, IBEY simply says "after scatter has been resolved" but it still requires the placement of the unit on the table.

 

Agreed with Morollan. Place model on table, figure out scatter, surround model with the rest of the unit that is arriving with him, then figure out if any of those models are within 12". Pretty standard stuff for this game, really.

 

V

But as the FAQ points out - the Shooting attack comes before "the unit" completes its move (once all models have been moved is after completing its movement) or after Scatter has been resolved (there are steps after Scatter has been resolved before Deep Strike has been resolved).

 

It comes down to another example of RAI (which is pretty clear) is not RAW (which is both unclear and produces odd/game-breaking results). I believe we've answered how the RAW is written, and I think we agree on how the RAI should be handled. It's now a matter for discussion at the local group or tournament level.

[Morollan]

But as the FAQ points out - the Shooting attack comes before "the unit" completes its move (once all models have been moved is after completing its movement) or after Scatter has been resolved (there are steps after Scatter has been resolved before Deep Strike has been resolved).

 

That's not strictly true. It would only do that if it said "immediately after scatter". Doing it 'my' way still takes place after scatter but also after the unit has been deployed on the table, thus fulfilling both criteria. Your method only fulfills one.

[Jacinda]

If you place the model for Deep Strike and then it scatters off the table causing a mishap, do you still get the IBEY shots?

This is my point. The results of scatter are not fully resolved until the whole unit is placed. That last petal of the flower may cause the whole unit to mishap and go back into reserves (or whatever). Moving the first model is just one step of resolving scatter, but it is not the last.

 

How can you say scatter is resolved if there are still effects from the scatter pending resolution?

[dswanick]

But as the FAQ points out - the Shooting attack comes before "the unit" completes its move (once all models have been moved is after completing its movement) or after Scatter has been resolved (there are steps after Scatter has been resolved before Deep Strike has been resolved).

 

That's not strictly true. It would only do that if it said "immediately after scatter". Doing it 'my' way still takes place after scatter but also after the unit has been deployed on the table, thus fulfilling both criteria. Your method only fulfills one.

But your argument hinges on the idea that "after a unit is placed" means "after a unit deploys". "After a unit is placed" begins when the first model is positioned on the table, "after a unit deploys" is only after all models have been placed. Unit placement is the process which culimnates with unit Deployment.

But again, this is all a result of poorly worded rules and a "do what's fun" mentality of the rules writers. People are going to interpret them differently based on any number of outside factors. So the best answer is "discuss, discuss, discuss". After all, my interpretation opens up the rule to several abuses - as is typical with poorly worded GW rules... :shrugs:

[dswanick]

If you place the model for Deep Strike and then it scatters off the table causing a mishap, do you still get the IBEY shots?

This is my point. The results of scatter are not fully resolved until the whole unit is placed. That last petal of the flower may cause the whole unit to mishap and go back into reserves (or whatever). Moving the first model is just one step of resolving scatter, but it is not the last.

 

How can you say scatter is resolved if there are still effects from the scatter pending resolution?

Scatter is resolved when the first places model is shifted into a new position depending on the outcome of the scatter dice roll. Then you place the additional models from the unit. Mishap occurs when the Deployment results in an invalid placement.

[Jacinda]

I think we are splitting hairs here in an effort to intentionally obfuscate the rules.

 

There are plenty of examples of badly worded rules and especially FAQ's that are much worse that this.

[the jeske]

but the rules are rather clear . when one triggers after deep strike [like land , scater , trigger warp quake] and the other one when deep strike happens but before movments then one clearly happens before the other .

So yeah technicly with luck a GK army with cortez and WQ could make a unit deep strike , shot at it and then make it misshap[which may for example put it back again in to deep strike] .

[mjc]

Thank you everyone for your input.

 

So to summarize:

 

1. "I've been expecting you" does not apply if Coteaz is in a vehicle period.

2. Although a little vague due to the current rules, deep strike scatter and entire unit placement onto the board will be done prior measuring for " I've been expecting you"

 

Let me know if you think these are reasonable conclusions. Thank you.

[Toasterfree]

Thank you everyone for your input.

 

So to summarize:

 

1. "I've been expecting you" does not apply if Coteaz is in a vehicle period.

2. Although a little vague due to the current rules, deep strike scatter and entire unit placement onto the board will be done prior measuring for " I've been expecting you"

 

Let me know if you think these are reasonable conclusions. Thank you.

*chris farley voice* that is correct (takes on shirt)

[dswanick]

Thank you everyone for your input.

 

So to summarize:

 

1. "I've been expecting you" does not apply if Coteaz is in a vehicle period.

2. Although a little vague due to the current rules, deep strike scatter and entire unit placement onto the board will be done prior measuring for " I've been expecting you"

 

Let me know if you think these are reasonable conclusions. Thank you.

Well, you forgot the most important one :

3. Have fun.

Otherwise, looks like you've got it covered. :)

[mjc]

Just realized that Mystic can not use his ability while in a vehicle either. Oh well.... ;)

[breng77]

That is not true at all about the mystic, as the ability does not require line of sight to the deep striking unit.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Perhaps I have a question to add. lets say a unit is using a drop pod to deepstrike in, would I've been expecting you be targeted against the pod alone or would it also be targeted against the unit disembarking because they must immediately disembark.

 

Im assuming only the drop pod as of this point

[*Furyou Miko]

Just hits the drop pod. The unit don't deep strike, they disembark from their transport. Just because it's compulsory doesn't change any of the other rules.

[Chengar Qordath]

Just hits the drop pod. The unit don't deep strike, they disembark from their transport. Just because it's compulsory doesn't change any of the other rules.

Hate to say it, but you got that one wrong Miko.

 

Per the GK FAQ;

Q: Does a squad disembarking from a Drop Pod, or Mycetic Spore, count as arriving from reserve for Inquisitor Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule? (p45)

A: Yes, this means that Inquisitor Coteaz and his unit will be able to fire once at each unit.