New Unit Concepts

[JeffJedi]

Brother Bethor needs to be an IC so that you can put him with what ever squad you need him most.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Interesting topic. I made several quotes. ^_^

 

Special Weapons Squads: The Dark Angels are, supposedly, one of the more tactically flexible chapters, and I find that this could be a valuable addition, capable of being tailored to suit individual threats, and much more mobile than Devastador squads. It would be similar to Devastators, a five-to-ten man squad with four special weapons: plasma rifles (are we not, for some reason, the "Plasma chapter"?), meltaguns, or flamethrowers. Maybe also heavy flamethrowers, since they are assault weapons. I think that Sisters of Battle get some similar with the Dominion Squads, altough don´t know details.

 

Ravenwing Scouts: The ravenwing is much more than a glorified eight company. They are expert riders, but also scouts and infiltrators; after all, it´s them who must draw out the Fallen for the Deathwing to pick. This would be a hand-picked team of elite marines from the Second Company, clad in Scout Armor and riding a Land Speeder Storm. Maybe they could get some special choices in weapons and wargear to make them stand out.

 

With "special Weapons squads" and "Ravenwing Scouts" I combine the two which gives : power armoured dark angel sniper squads. How about that. Fits Dark Angels nicely.

 

Thunderlions.

 

Werelion mutations.

Mmm - no thanks. Never, hopefully. ^_^

 

Dark Angels shouldn't copy what is a the Space Wolf thing...and IMO not a good one

 

How about plasma weapons that do not have "Gets hot!"?

Everybody should then have access to it, not happening IMO. Also I like the way it is, you use the power of the sun, but it is two-bladed and can be risky...much as if you use a Nuclear bomb, sure it kills well, but if you use this...you too are infected by the radiations.

 

I think the "character" of the Dark Angels lies in some form of balance between "shooty" and "melee", although it would be difficult to achieve without reducing them to "jack-of-all-trades-green-marines".

 

From a fluff perspective, the bolter-carrying assault squads are great: combines some firepower and mobility, as I mentioned in my first post; however, I don´t know its usefulness rules-wise, someone can comment on it?

To me, Dark Angels should lose HtH effectiveness and be more shooty oriented. Except precisely on the Assault squads, which should remain as it IMO. Say,_maybie_, they could carry twin-bolt pistols, I like it better, fits both reality and older fluff.

 

HQ:

1. First and foremost, I want a template for a generic Grand Master. This should serve to design unnamed Grand Masters within the Dark Angels or any of their Successors. The template should be equivalent in power to a C:SM Chapter Master.

I would like this too. Azreal would then be an example of a Grand Master in the tenth millenia that follows the Horus Heresy.

 

-------------------

 

As of my personal imput here, apart the Dark Angel power armoured scouts which I strongly favor, I don't see what to add to Dark Angels, and not to Codex Chapters. We not necessary need new units to stand out IMO, it's within the special rules and the codex equipment accessibility that us Dark Angels should be different, at least to merit a codex of our own. For examples, Dark Angels could lose the power fist in the infantry squads for a deathwing sergeant giving us bolter drill and intractability.

 

Cheers.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Here is some ideas I have been working on.

 

STUBBORN FOR EVERYONE!!!

 

Tactical Squads: Add something to make their shooting a little better.

Assault Squads: replace chainsword with a bolt pistol for 1 point per model.

Devastators: plasma cannons are cheaper.

Deathwing: as is. Maybe up squad size to 10

Ravenwing: fine as is.

Dreadnought:

- standard

- upgrade to Deathwing (Venerable) to increase BS and WS plus Venerable

- upgrade to Ravenwing to gain Fleet

- Upgrade to Mortis for dual wielding guns

Predator:

- option for executioner

Land Raider:

- Ares pattern available

Whirlwhind: fine as is

Vindicator: give is a Siege Shield

Land Speeders (Ravenwing Support):

- Tempest > add Extra Armour or up armour to 11

Chapter Veterans:

- pretty much Company Veterans, are the members of Successor 1st Companies without access to TDA

- Bolter, bolt pistol and CCW

- may all take Combat Shields

- may replace bolter with Storm Shield

- 3 may replace bolter with special weapon

- 3 may take power weapons, 1 or two lightning claws, thunder hammer, power fist

- Veteran Sergeant has separate options and does not count at any of the 3 foe special guns or CCWs

 

Command Squads: one for a Company Master, Librarian and Chaplain.

Company Command Squad:

- Lose ability to take Sacred Standards.

- may all take jump packs

- upgrade to Ravenwing Command to gain relevant rules, options and Jetbikes.

- upgrade to Deathwing Command to gain relevant rules, options TDA:

 

Librarium Scholar Squad:

- 5 man

- stats of Veterans

- no force weapons, only power weapons

- each Junior Librarian has a "minor psychic" ability similar to Eldar Warlocks

- may take Carrier of the Tome > grants Preferred Enemy due to the Tome holding tactics for every enemy

- may take Junior Librarian Predictor> lacks psychic hood and has ability similar to Warptime.

- may take Junior Librarian Defender > lacks psychic hood and has a ability that grants a 5++ to the squad.

 

Knights of the Order (Chaplain bodyguards):

- 5 man

- stats of veterans

- Stubborn unless joined by a Chaplain

- each has a crozius but no rosarius

- may take a Bearer of the Sacred Standard

- Preferred Enemy Chaos Marines

 

Chapter Honour Guard:

- 5 man

- Veterans

- all have power weapons

- artificer armour

- may take Chapter Standard

- may take The Black Knight > S5 power weapon, storm shield

- may take Master Apothecary > FnP tests may always be taken on a 4+, against power weapons and 2x Strength they must re-roll a successful test.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

11th Company Dark Master, fine input you made. I would like to see some rules to counter "Chapter Tactics" of the Codex Astartes. If you know what I am talking about, this trait is basically a counter to the Death Company or any HtH strong or OP?:P specialized assault units of any opponent, this, is crazy. (you flee, then you shoot at the unit ;))

 

Dark Angels don't have this trait, and have only the hidden powerfist to somewhat counter the assault unit, or the monstrous creature or special character. I am advocating the loss of the Power Fist, but then, Dark Angels are toasted.

 

"Chapter Tactics" shouldn't be given to Dark Angels IMO, it does not fit them. Also if you want my opinion this should be a trait of Marneus Clagar and the unit he leads, only... :P

 

Instead : the Deathwing Sergeant is allowed to take "Heroism" : any "No Retreat rule" effect, affects the opponent unit instead. B) The Deathwing Sergeant makes the squad he leads fearless first!

 

Cheers.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think this has diverged from Wishlisting, and turned into an actual mirror of what goes on in the Rules Development forum, namely discussing rules formations for Dark Angels. Really don't think we need another type of that outside that particular forum.

[Aleax]

I think this has diverged from Wishlisting, and turned into an actual mirror of what goes on in the Rules Development forum, namely discussing rules formations for Dark Angels. Really don't think we need another type of that outside that particular forum.

Well I made my point clear, Dark Angels don't need transport skimmers, or Ravenwing scout bike squads. :P So the rules should then make them different instead, which ones were suggested by my posts above. For the New units really, I suggest Infiltrating power armoured Snipers. And perhaps, dual wielding bolt pistols assault squads. On-topic now? :P

[shortysl]

11th Company Dark Master, fine input you made. I would like to see some rules to counter "Chapter Tactics" of the Codex Astartes. If you know what I am talking about, this trait is basically a counter to the Death Company or any HtH strong or OP?:unsure: specialized assault units of any opponent, this, is crazy. (you flee, then you shoot at the unit :huh:)

 

You're referring to And They Shall Know No Fear, and all Space Marines have it.

 

Dark Angels don't have this trait

 

Yes they do.

 

"Chapter Tactics" shouldn't be given to Dark Angels IMO, it does not fit them.

 

Yes it does. Chapter Tactics in Codex: Space Marines is a way of altering a Chapter's playstyle through the introduction of a Unique character. Belial and Sammael already do this.

 

Instead : the Deathwing Sergeant is allowed to take "Heroism" : any "No Retreat rule" effect, affects the opponent unit instead. :lol: The Deathwing Sergeant makes the squad he leads fearless first!

 

Makes no sense, especially since you're advocating that Dark Angels be made worse in the Assault phase. If that's the case, why would enemy units take damage from beating Dark Angels in an assault?

 

To be honest, there's not much in the way of new units I'd wish for. A lot of our existing units need cleaning up and I'd like to see us getting back 'our' Mortis pattern Dreadnoughts but other than that we're not too shabby.

[Aleax]

Hmm then I am confused. I am talking not about ATSKNF but about the rule which allows deliberately to fail the Leadership test after a HtH round. Please enlighten me.

[shortysl]

Hmm then I am confused. I am talking not about ATSKNF but about the rule which allows deliberately to fail the Leadership test after a HtH round. Please enlighten me.

 

It's Marneus Calgar's God of War rule. He, and any friendly unit with the Combat Tactics special rule may choose to fail a Morale check if they wish. This is a double-edged blade however; if it's done in an assault, you run the risk of being caught and suffering further wounds due to the No Retreat! rule, or if the enemy pursue you and remain witin 6" of you, they can run you off the board (even Space Marines are unable to regroup if there is an enemy within 6").

 

This rule is only available if Marneus Calgar is in the army, and it's really not as dangerous as it may at first seem. There are ways to counter it without changing the rules. Hope this helps.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Hmm then I am confused. I am talking not about ATSKNF but about the rule which allows deliberately to fail the Leadership test after a HtH round. Please enlighten me.

 

It's Marneus Calgar's God of War rule. He, and any friendly unit with the Combat Tactics special rule may choose to fail a Morale check if they wish. This is a double-edged blade however; if it's done in an assault, you run the risk of being caught and suffering further wounds due to the No Retreat! rule, or if the enemy pursue you and remain witin 6" of you, they can run you off the board (even Space Marines are unable to regroup if there is an enemy within 6").

 

This rule is only available if Marneus Calgar is in the army, and it's really not as dangerous as it may at first seem. There are ways to counter it without changing the rules. Hope this helps.

I'm still confused. :) I suspect I have to take again my rulebooks, I admit I haven't played for long. Thanks anyway. :) As of the suggestions above, I try to find ways to get Dark Angels different from Codex with the fluff of the DA. But without underpowering them, what brings other rules to fix the novelties, these new rules being also DA-fluffy, hopefully. :) Hence, I take off the power fist but I add "Heroism" for example. :)

 

My input is over here I suppose, time to find a topic which one talks about DA rules suggestions, specifically. :)

 

Cheers.

[MadDoc]

As of the suggestions above, I try to find ways to get Dark Angels different from Codex with the fluff of the DA. But without underpowering them, what brings other rules to fix the novelties, these new rules being also DA-fluffy, hopefully. :tu: Hence, I take off the power fist but I add "Heroism" for example. :P

With all due respect, I have to call bull on your suggestions being fluffy. They're not.

 

Removing the close combat utility (power fist or any other melee weapon) from DA squads is not even remotely fluffy. You might be able to argue that the DA have a knack for ranged combat, but that in no way equates to them being sub-par in melee/close combat, in fact everything we're told about them suggests they are in fact excellent all rounders who just so happen to have an arguable predilection for, or more accurately are skilled at, ranged combat.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

As of the suggestions above, I try to find ways to get Dark Angels different from Codex with the fluff of the DA. But without underpowering them, what brings other rules to fix the novelties, these new rules being also DA-fluffy, hopefully. :) Hence, I take off the power fist but I add "Heroism" for example. :)

With all due respect, I have to call bull on your suggestions being fluffy. They're not.

 

Removing the close combat utility (power fist or any other melee weapon) from DA squads is not even remotely fluffy. You might be able to argue that the DA have a knack for ranged combat, but that in no way equates to them being sub-par in melee/close combat, in fact everything we're told about them suggests they are in fact excellent all rounders who just so happen to have an arguable predilection for, or more accurately are skilled at, ranged combat.

Hmm this is where it is fluffy IMO:

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KBj3Hj4Z4zk/SU3W...00/P1010001.JPG

 

No powerfist here man.:) It just is. Did you look at the picture? The squad leader (they all are Dark Angels) is intractability killing with a bolter.

 

Also, never I said that DA should lose say, Assault squads. Or Assaut terminators. :)

 

Cheers.

[MadDoc]

Hmm this is where it is fluffy IMO:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KBj3Hj4Z4zk/SU3W...00/P1010001.JPG

No powerfist here man.:) It just is. Did you look at the picture? The squad leader (they all are Dark Angels) is intractability killing with a bolter.

Congratulations you've found a single old pic that represents an option that is already available in every current Marine Codex (excluding the atypical C:GK).

That wasn't even a good try, its just plain sad. Seriously, that has to be the weakest attempt at making a point I've seen in quite some time. :)

I raise your single pic (i.e. sad attempt at drawing a conclusion from one pic) 3 pics that refute your erroneous assertion.

DA 4E Codex Cover

Veteran Sergeant DW RPG Artwork

Codex Dark Angels p. 63

Multiple examples of contemporary GW sanctioned artwork (and figures) showing melee equipped Dark Angels that aren't members of Assault Squads.

Your suggestion was unfluffy, and your attempt to prove the contrary was, at best, seriously weak. :)

[Aleax]

Well sorry sir, but this is going way-off topic yet. :)

 

Cheers.

[NovaScotius]

I'd like to see Veteran Sergeants have access to Relic Blades (or an equivalent) instead of/in addition to Power Fists, as I think this would be quite fitting with the imagery for the Dark Angels. I'd also like to see the Deathwing squad cap raised to 10 men, along with "proper" Command Squads for both Deathwing and Ravenwing (Company Champions, and a wider selection of war gear over other squads). Finally, I'd like to see Intractable come back!

[EPK]

Hmm this is where it is fluffy IMO:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KBj3Hj4Z4zk/SU3W...00/P1010001.JPG

No powerfist here man.^_^ It just is. Did you look at the picture? The squad leader (they all are Dark Angels) is intractability killing with a bolter.

Congratulations you've found a single old pic that represents an option that is already available in every current Marine Codex (excluding the atypical C:GK).

That wasn't even a good try, its just plain sad. Seriously, that has to be the weakest attempt at making a point I've seen in quite some time. ;)

I raise your single pic (i.e. sad attempt at drawing a conclusion from one pic) 3 pics that refute your erroneous assertion.

DA 4E Codex Cover

Veteran Sergeant DW RPG Artwork

Codex Dark Angels p. 63

Multiple examples of contemporary GW sanctioned artwork (and figures) showing melee equipped Dark Angels that aren't members of Assault Squads.

Your suggestion was unfluffy, and your attempt to prove the contrary was, at best, seriously weak. :tu:

Yet with just those 3 pics you just unintentionally shown that DA may be partial to plasma weapons! Oh no! :)

Seriously though, what were they thinking, and additional 40 points on Vet Sarge upgrades in a Dev squad? Pfft.

[Brother-Chaplain Nemiel]

Well TBH, even if i love the looks of PPs, im tending to see them as a waste of points...ESPECIALLY in combination with a PW of PF...means much of my stuff needs rebuilding/magnetizing! :tu:

 

Edit: Lion EL`Johnson was one of THE best swordfighters, so why his sons shouldnt be in any way similar?...Even if the best DA swordsman only was able to stand 1 mins in a sparring fight vs Lion! ;)

[MadDoc]

Congratulations you've found a single old pic that represents an option that is already available in every current Marine Codex (excluding the atypical C:GK).

That wasn't even a good try, its just plain sad. Seriously, that has to be the weakest attempt at making a point I've seen in quite some time. :nuke:

I raise your single pic (i.e. sad attempt at drawing a conclusion from one pic) 3 pics that refute your erroneous assertion.

*Snip*

Multiple examples of contemporary GW sanctioned artwork (and figures) showing melee equipped Dark Angels that aren't members of Assault Squads.

Your suggestion was unfluffy, and your attempt to prove the contrary was, at best, seriously weak. :nuke:

Yet with just those 3 pics you just unintentionally shown that DA may be partial to plasma weapons! Oh no! B)

Assault on Black Reach artwork

Codex Space Marines p. 113

Battle for Macragge artwork

Oh no, I guess with those 3 pics I just proved Ultramarines/Codex Chapters may be partial to plasma weapons! :lol:

You realise that your above attempt was almost as sad as Aleax's, right? ;)

I (perhaps wrongly) expect better of people.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The plasma weaponry per capita is much higher in the DA pics though. :lol:

[MadDoc]

The plasma weaponry per capita is much higher in the DA pics though. :lol:

And then we have someone streak past sad and dive headlong into pathetic reaching... ;)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Everybody, quit with the jabs and stick to the topic or things may turn ugly. First and final warning.

[Unforgiven2544]

@Mad Doc: I think EPK was being facetious, and not intending an actual 'dig' at your post. I could be mistaken, but I think the smiley was an indication of sarcasm. Thus making EPK an ally to your point against Aleax. (Of course, I don't know everyone's online personality very well so I might be talking out of my hindquarters)

 

Now, on to topic of wishlisting:

I would like to see our Terminators divided into Deathwing and Deathwing Assault.

 

Deathwing are 5-10 in squad size, can have 1 special weapon per 5 terminators, mix and match as per now, and fall into the Troops section.

 

Deathwing Assault are 3-5, can have 2 special weapons, have 'personal teleporters', and are Elites.

 

Very Respectfully,

--Unforgiven

[EPK]

Yes, it was just a joke. And I consciously placed that smily face there in hopes it would be perceived as such. No biggie though, sarcasm fails most of the time on the web.

 

The Deathwing Assualt squad is interesting Unforgiven. Do said teleporters allow them to teleport any time during the game?

[Unforgiven2544]

EPK, in my mind, I imagine it to be like the Grey Knight interceptor squads. Once per game teleport 'shunt' move.

 

Having 'jump infantry' terminators might be a bit much.

 

Respectfully,

--Unforgiven

[Interrogator Stobz]

Love it, although I can't tell if either of you are being facetious, sarcastic or just plain funny without all manor of smileys attached :P . So I guess I'll just be rude and call it a crap idea ;) JUST KIDDING!!! But you guys knew that already, it'd be great to have a variety of DW options, I can't wait to see if we get some.

 

Of course if we got 5-10 man DWS, kept mixed loadouts and gained 1x heavy weapon per 5 DW we could have our cake and eat it too with a little combat squading. Time will tell.

 

Why do all our wishlisting threads devolve into personal attacks? A lack of funny bone and inflated egos I presume. Let's just have fun yeah? Saves CL a job being the web-police, I'm sure he'd rather be here enjoying DA discussion instead.

 

Stobz

 

EDIT: Reasonableness, clarity and an actual OT comment just for fun.:cuss