Legion Military strengths after the siege of Terra

[Marshal Rohr]

You CAN start the process at 21. You can start it at any time. The success of the implantation will drastically decrease, but it is possible.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Fairly sure that's 100% incorrect as at least one of the implants has an "on or before" date. Unless by drastically, you meant "reduced to 0% chance of success". In which case, yes, you are technically correct.

[Legatus]

McNeill's choice to use the age of six is simply showing that from time to time, he can make good decisions when writing about Ultramarines.

As greatcrusade08 has pointed out, the training academies on Macragge are meant for the general population and are a mandatory part of Macraggan education. They enter the academies at an age of six and graduate at an age of fourteen. The Ultramarines take their recruits from those academies, but likely not from the fourteen year olds but from earlier stages. Though also not from the six year olds that just got enlisted.

 

I would say a couple of weeks should be enough to properly screen an aspirant for compatibility and mental stability. You probably don't need four years for that. Plus, the Ultramarines have the advantage that their recruits have already undergone four to six years of training and proving before even being considered for recruitment, whereas the recruits of other Chaoters are generally chosen from those youths who have proven themselves in whatever harsh environment they had grown up in.

[greatcrusade08]

ultramarines have the tournaments for potential recruits, the best enter into a sort of martial arts/toughness/fitness competition and those who stand out are taken for further tests and recruitment.

there is a little bit on this in the dreadnought ironclaw story, alot more detailed information in the dark angels HH books

 

i figure once they have a potential recruit in terms of fitness and toughness/beleif/positive attitude whatever, the actual pyhsical blood tests to check for genetic characterisitics etc wouldnt take too long.

the reason why chapters like the wolves dont do these tests is down to the fact they recruit from so called death worlds.. most of the populace are already tough as nails (have to be to survive) so very few fail in the early stages

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I must admit, that was the main bit of fluff until ward's scribbleings, that broke my suspension of disbeleif. Look at people at 6-12, the look at what they are like at 18-26, some people who seemed to be bright/tough/physically fit at those young ages just arn't that impressive or even worse then others when they are older, and vice versa.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I would say a couple of weeks should be enough to properly screen an aspirant for compatibility and mental stability. You probably don't need four years for that. Plus, the Ultramarines have the advantage that their recruits have already undergone four to six years of training and proving before even being considered for recruitment, whereas the recruits of other Chaoters are generally chosen from those youths who have proven themselves in whatever harsh environment they had grown up in.

You're still thinking too narrowly. The cost for feeding/housing a small child is insignificant compared to that of fully invested Marine. The advantages gained by starting them off young doesn't just revolve around a checklist that says "Space Marine? Yes/No". You can start the mental indoctrination, the physical conditioning, etc. There's absolutely no downside involved in starting the process as early as possible, and you can easily weed out the ones who make the basic requirements, but aren't suited for the job. To put it into terms I think you guys can grasp, think of top university prospects who couldn't make it as professional athletes because they weren't mentally tough enough, or just couldn't adapt to the faster game. The world is full of them. Dudes who had no physical reason to not be successful, but never clicked at the pro level. Space Marines are the best of the best, and have to be the toughest of the tough. Mentally and physically superior. It isn't just about handing a toddler some blocks and seeing which holes he tries to put them through. These kinds of intangibles aren't going to take "a couple weeks". We're talking years if you want to do it right. You run the kids through the grinder, and the ones who make it, then you bother implanting them. We're not making Guardsmen. This isn't even real world Marines. The average special operator in the world goes through well over a year of selection and such. And we're not trying to genetically engineer them and their mission profile isn't going to be half as demanding. Thinking that Space Marines take a few years just make sure the kid they have is a suitable candidate? Bajillions of people in the universe. 1 million Space Marines.

 

 

I must admit, that was the main bit of fluff until ward's scribbleings, that broke my suspension of disbeleif. Look at people at 6-12, the look at what they are like at 18-26, some people who seemed to be bright/tough/physically fit at those young ages just arn't that impressive or even worse then others when they are older, and vice versa.

The thing is, natural development goes out the window with the kind of modification a Space Marine goes through. They're building super people. Nobody grows up to be seven and a half feet tall and around 400 pounds of solid muscle and bone, lol. People may grow larger, but they rarely get magically smarter. There's no fail-proof method, but if you're screening kids for suitability, better to take the ones who are smarter at a young age, than the ones which are dumb and taking a chance. Again, like throwing your gene seed into people and hoping it doesn't turn them into a dog. :)

[Marshal Rohr]

It's only incorrect if you discount Black Library fiction.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Pretty easy to do that sometimes. The stuff isn't exactly infallible. In cases of irreconcilable information, studio material will always win out, especially if it remains more current.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's certainly one view.

[Legatus]

You're still thinking too narrowly. The cost for feeding/housing a small child is insignificant compared to that of fully invested Marine. The advantages gained by starting them off young doesn't just revolve around a checklist that says "Space Marine? Yes/No". You can start the mental indoctrination, the physical conditioning, etc. There's absolutely no downside involved in starting the process as early as possible

Sez you, but I am asking: Why indoctrinate a thousand children to become Space Marines if ultimately only one will actually make it? The logistics of that alone may not be as trivial as you suggest. On the other hand, I see no downside to picking the best and brightest from the selection of ten year old boys and then perform the neccessary screebing procedures. It seems to work, since that is how it is done in the fluff.

[Marshal Rohr]

The logistics of feeding and housing humans in 40K is miniscule. Resources are measured in planets remember. Its less than a grain of sand on a beach to feed, house, and train one thousand young boys.

 

It wouldn't be far different from a Schola would it?

[Legatus]

We are not talking about housing and feeding. We are talking about mass psycho indoctrination. Some bunks and rations wont do, we are talking specialised equipment and care.

 

You can start the mental indoctrination, the physical conditioning, etc. There's absolutely no downside involved in starting the process as early as possible, and you can easily weed out the ones who make the basic requirements, but aren't suited for the job.

[Marshal Rohr]

Psycho indoctrination isn't always that complex. A TV, rousing orator, unified enemy, and all the other normal brainwashing techniques humankind has perfected over the years could be an easy place to start, with the more advanced chemical indocrination and tv monitors with eyelids forced open could come later on as the class thins :) .

[Kol Saresk]

If I remember right, the implants that promote the growth of bone and muscle masses, require the growth hormones to be present. While the male body stops growing at 18, it produces all of the growth hormones until 21. After that, the only growth hormone produced is testosterone until 40 or so depending on external and/or internal factors such as bodily injury, stress, anabolic steroids, exercise, so on so forth. This is based off of the same article that GW used to have on their website. It described how the recruits are implanted while their bodies are basically in puberty. Most people think puberty ends at sixteen or so but in reality, it goes on a little further. And in boys, puberty starts around 12. So 12 to 21 seems like a reasonable number.

 

Astral Sharks, Space Sharks, Astra Carcharadons, same difference. Tomato tamato.

 

Resources, yeah resources are based on a planetary scale. Logistics, not so much. Space Marines are meant to go everywhere that duty calls. So fleets are mandatory. Which means extra housing. Then there's the Fortress Monastery. That could be anything from a flagship to a star fort to a planetary structure of immense proportions. So that really doesn't seem to be a problem for the Space Marines. Could be because the plot dictates it, authoritarian creative licensing, or actual GW writings. Don't know. I just know that's what has been written down.

 

As far as the numbers, I believe that is the beef behind the increased numbers of the Space Marine Legions and how the purges were "smaller" in proportion than they used to be. People hated it but it makes sense. The Loyalists are able to take bigger hits and still come out meeting the original fluff requirements. In the case of the Traitors, they can come out higher. And still be the losers so I really don't get the problem with that.

 

Warp time. Again, I don't get the problem. Especially since it works both ways. There will eventually be that story where a Space Marine Company(or Chapter) goes back into the past by accident and is able to prevent some major disaster from occuring. Or create a disaster just by being there. It works to create an entire range of possibilities that are completely tantalizing. There is also the fact that some unlucky sod will experience absolutely no time dilation effects so there could be a Traitor who is actually 10,000 years old. Other than the Salamander.

[Badhaggis]

I remember reading that story about the Night Lord who gets stuck in the warp for 11,000 years, Zso Sahaal i think. He's fairley pissed off about the fact that he thought a year had passed instead.

[Kol Saresk]

10,000. And he hinernated through all of it. I think that's what got him most.

[nuclearship]

Hi there

 

I suppose we can count the second foundings as an estimate what was left of the Legions at least after the scouring.

 

That would be this numbers:

 

1st Legion – Dark Angels: 4’000 Marines

 

5th Legion – White Scars: 5’000 Marines

 

6th Legion – Space Wolves: 2’000 Marines (or close to 3’000 if considered they never wanted to split)

 

7th Legion – Imperial Fists: 3’000 Marines (or 4’000? Black Templars were more than 1’000 from the beginning or did they grow later?)

 

9th Legion – Blood Angels: 5’000 Marines

 

10th Legion – Iron Hands: 3’000 Marines

 

13th Legion – Ultramarines: 24’000 Marines

 

18th Legion – Salamanders: 1’000 Marines

 

19th Legion – Raven Guard: 4’000 Marines

 

Counting the Legions were around 50’000 – 100’000 – there was indeed heavy attrition at the battle of Terra so the White Scars, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels were brought low. Obviously the bulk of the scouring was taken on by the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines were they also lost many Marines (even the Ultarmarines only had 10% left if you consider the 250’000 Marines they once were). The Salamanders seems to never have recovered from Istvaan and the Raven Guard and Iron Hands also retained their low numbers after that even.

 

 

You're assuming that the Legions split up entirely evenly after the Heresy. I feel that this wouldn't have been the case. Maybe perhaps for the Ultramarines who wanted to set an example and show that they would adhere to their own ideas, but not so for the other Legions.

 

What if the Raven Guard had 4331 Marines left after the Heresy? Do they split up into 4 Chapters and send the remaining 331 into the merry void? Do they set up a chapter of 331 Marines? Or do they simply let these Marines stay as part of the Raven Guard and adjust recruitment accordingly? This is what I feel would have happened.

 

Rather than go 'Right, we have roughly 5000 Marines left after the Heresy, 5 Chapters here we come!' the Legions would have decided how many were comfortable splitting off into and then any remainder kept within the new Chapter/s until they had died off from attrition. This logic would have applied doubly to the Space Wolves who, I assume, would have had to have been coaxed rather forcefully to split up. As they split right down the middle we can't just assume that there were 2000 Space Wolves left (even Battle of the Fang disputes this) and that they had agreed on how many Chapters would be created, and let the Chapter gradually slide down to the number of 1000 Space Wolves over time.

 

 

Point taken, but I think we don't have any other idea than that, and it fairly reflect the odds or doesn't it? Ultramarines the most of all without Siege of Terra attrition and Salamanders lowest after Heresy as they had too sent all the forces like the Raven Guard (other than the Iron Hands only 1st Company) and didn't make it back to Terra in time to get the purestrain DNA sample to rapidly grow new marines....so I think the coun't wasn't that bad

 

However, it seems we are the only ones actually still talking about the number of marines instead of how they are created ;) ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Three posts back before yours, second from the bottom. ;)

[Veteran Sergeant]

You're still thinking too narrowly. The cost for feeding/housing a small child is insignificant compared to that of fully invested Marine. The advantages gained by starting them off young doesn't just revolve around a checklist that says "Space Marine? Yes/No". You can start the mental indoctrination, the physical conditioning, etc. There's absolutely no downside involved in starting the process as early as possible

Sez you, but I am asking: Why indoctrinate a thousand children to become Space Marines if ultimately only one will actually make it?

Because only one will ultimately make it. Not "if". The fluff supports this. Certainly didn't make that one up.

 

The logistics of that alone may not be as trivial as you suggest. On the other hand, I see no downside to picking the best and brightest from the selection of ten year old boys and then perform the neccessary screebing procedures. It seems to work, since that is how it is done in the fluff.

LOL. So how do they determine who the best and brightest of the kids are? This magical yes/no checklist you are suggesting? Take their parents' word for it? No testing for intangibles? It's just this super quick, efficient, simple, hands dusted process. Yeah, [that[/i] sounds just like 40K.

[Legatus]

LOL. So how do they determine who the best and brightest of the kids are?

Most Chapters hold some kind of Tournament, or perform tests on the potential recruits. The Space Wolves observe battles among the native tribes of Fenris and take the fallen youths that fought especially brave or skilled. The youths on Baal undertake long journeys through the harsh environment to get to the recruiting event. Etc.

 

 

Because only one will ultimately make it. Not "if". The fluff supports this. Certainly didn't make that one up.

The difference between the actual fluff and your proposition is that in the fluff, of the thousands that pass the initial tests, that one contender is then being indoctrinated and trained. As opposed to thousands of children being conditioned and trained by the Chapter for years, when ultimately 99.9% of them will be discarded.

[Kol Saresk]

If only one aspirant made it at a time, then the Chapter would never rebuild itself. Like Legatus said, it's an average percentage. Personally, I have never seen the fluff where only one aspirant will make it to becoming a Scout. In fact, it seems like a handful will make it to Scouts based on physical and mental skills. And then, only a couple out of that handful will make it to full Astartes status, whether it be from training, gene-seed rejection or battle.

[Veteran Sergeant]

You're definitely still confused. I never said anything about only one aspirant making it at a time. You're taking my re-wording of Legatus's poorly conceived statement as an original thought from me. Legatus said "one", not me. The key word was "because" replacing "if". I don't bother arguing semantics. People only do that when they don't have a leg to stand on, lol.

[Legatus]

The "one in a thousand" is just an example. The point is not that it is one of every thousand. the point is that from loads and loads of contenders, only very few will be selected to become aspirants.

 

Fluff --> Lots and lots are initially tested. Those few that show promise become aspirants.

 

Suggested here --> Lots and lots become "aspirants" and receive the Space Marine indoctrination and training. But only few will actually receive the implants and become Space Marines.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The fluff suggests both, and certainly declares neither to be definitive. I'm only saying which one makes the most sense. You're just arguing simple to be contrarian at this point, lol.

[Kol Saresk]

I believe I said that like Legatus said, it is an average percentage. And I think I am using aspirant in a different context as well, which might be causing some of the misunderstanding. I am using aspirant to describe everyone involved in the recruiting process from those who wanted to be chosen to be picked up by the Chapter right up until they become Scouts because until that point, they are aspiring to become Space Marines. A Scout is different because instead of just competing and training to gain the right to the gene-seed, they are now on a higher step on the ladder and are that much closer to their goal.

 

I know Dawn of War: Ascension had it worded differently. Aspirants were those trying to be chosen by the Space Marine Chapters. Recruits were those picked. From there, they became Scouts and eventually Space Marines. But since everyone hates Dawn of War and everything that carries its name, I never used that terminology.

 

You're still thinking too narrowly. The cost for feeding/housing a small child is insignificant compared to that of fully invested Marine. The advantages gained by starting them off young doesn't just revolve around a checklist that says "Space Marine? Yes/No". You can start the mental indoctrination, the physical conditioning, etc. There's absolutely no downside involved in starting the process as early as possible

Sez you, but I am asking: Why indoctrinate a thousand children to become Space Marines if ultimately only one will actually make it?

Because only one will ultimately make it. Not "if". The fluff supports this. Certainly didn't make that one up.

No, it looks like "only one will ultimately make it." Nothing added, nothing taken away.