Salamanders successors

[Castiel]

Hi all.

I'm having another stab at writing the background for a new chapter. All the information is below, and I look forward hearing your thoughts on them!

Chapter Name: ?

Chapter Heraldry: ?

Chapter Organisation: Codex

Gene-seed: Salamanders

Gene-seed deficiencies: None

Founding: 17th (c. 001.M35)

Homeworld: ? (Temperate world, medieval civilisation)

Fortress Monastery: ?

Battlecry: ?

Combat doctrine: Frontal assault, durable and relentless. Preference for hand to hand combat.

I currently have two colour schemes that I am considering:

1)

2)

Colours used:

1) Dark Angels Green, Sunburst Yellow, Boltgun Metal, Shining Gold, Blood Red

2) Dark Angels Green, Enchanted Blue, Boltgun Metal, Shining Gold, Blood Red

[InquisitorHayn]

Good day to you. *stretches C&C muscles*

 

All the information is below...

Hopefully, some of the information is still forthcoming. This really isn't much to go on. :woot:

 

I can see already that you're probably going to shape your Chapter around the way they fight (since that's one of the only details included), so let me start you off with a couple of caveats to hopefully help you avoid some pitfalls.

 

Frontal Assault.

Sounds gritty, hard, courageous. The problem is this. In most conflicts, armies do not march at one another in neat little Roman legion or Imperial Britain-style lines. Discerning a "front" in a typical warzone is usually a figurative assessment based on things like troop concentrations, routes of resupply and other such nonsense. It would be better to use a term which specifies how they assault instead of where.

 

This last one's just a personal pet peeve that I believe has become a trap for IA writers (and Black Templars in general), though it's entirely your prerogative to disagree. Every time I read "preference for hand-to-hand combat," I hear "loves being blown to tiny bits by massed artillery/small arms fire and having throat ripped out by freakishly mutated Xenos lifeforms." Nothing wrong with being good at killing things with swords/fists/adamantine sacks full of power doorknobs. It's even okay to be great at it. But it's still the last intelligent resort. Actually preferring (as a fighting force, regardless of individual inclination) close combat to a more reasonable/conventional approach, while it sounds cool in theory, realistically makes Space Marines sound like they believe 1+3=cupcake.

 

As I stated before though, this is simply advice. There are no hard and fast rules or even logic in the 40k universe (if the Black Templars and Matt Ward are any example), so create to your heart's delight. Good luck on your project. Cheers, mate.

[Castiel]

Thanks for the response! More info will hopefully be forthcoming, I should probably have said "key info that I have so far".

 

I'll look into the wording of the "Frontal assault" to better define what I meant. I agree that it is not the best wording I could have chosen!

 

By preferring cc I more meant that they will undertake normal actions with firepower etc, but will try to close with the enemy where it is a practical option. I plan on making them tactically flexible, with a slight bias to cc. I plan on making them aim for durability above all things, so being able to field large numbers of vehicles and terminator suits, although I might change that if I can come up eith a better way to fit it in. Again I should probably look at the wording there.

 

Cheers for your help!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think the frontal assault thing is pretty good for an Astartes philosophy.

 

They hang back, identify the enemy, locate and target their strength, their greatest concentration of troops or their leader and then attack in a single, dynamic strike designed to break the enemy.

 

Astartes are shock troops afterall.

[DarkLiege]

I think the frontal assault thing is pretty good for an Astartes philosophy.

 

They hang back, identify the enemy, locate and target their strength, their greatest concentration of troops or their leader and then attack in a single, dynamic strike designed to break the enemy.

 

Astartes are shock troops afterall.

 

I can see this working and it also made me think that the chapter could have the motto: "Knowledge first! Strike Second" or something like this.

 

Maybe before the assault, the Chapter sent in 2-3 squads of scouts to do recon on the area and to find enemies weak points and whatnots. once they have the infos, they go and start moving out in rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders and bikes or something.

 

Remember though, not all armies will assualt from the from like tyranids, orks and certain warbands.

 

My question is how will you make your chapter stand out from the rest of the other chapters and especially from the Sallies?

[InquisitorHayn]

@Brother Captain Kezef and Castiel:

 

They hang back, identify the enemy, locate and target their strength, their greatest concentration of troops or their leader and then attack in a single, dynamic strike designed to break the enemy.

 

Astartes are shock troops afterall.

 

Conceded. My objection was not to the style of combat, per se, but rather the term used to describe it. "Frontal Assault" is very vague as to actual execution and implies a specific type of pre-identified target, precluding it from being a standard practice. That said, I understand that these are merely notes for a greater project, Castiel, in which you will undoubtedly expound upon your choice. I look forward to reading it.

[Castiel]

Sorry I haven't been active much, very bus IRL atm. I am reading all the comments and taking them into account. Thanks for your advice!

[alphariusomegon20]

I currently have two colour schemes that I am considering:

1)

2)

Colours used:

1) Dark Angels Green, Sunburst Yellow, Boltgun Metal, Shining Gold, Blood Red

2) Dark Angels Green, Enchanted Blue, Boltgun Metal, Shining Gold, Blood Red

Honestly, I wouldn't use either Enchanted Blue or Sunburst Yellow for that scheme, as both are very starkly bright compared to DA Green, though the yellow does look better, IMO. Maybe you would consider using Averland Sunset as your highlight color and work your way up to it through the yellow browns.

[Jorus_Shadowmaw]

Umm..

Are you choosing them to be a codex chapter or do you think that the Salamanders are?

Because if you are going for the whole following the proginator foot steps thing, the Salamanders are far from a codex chapter.

Just food for thought though, I agree with the term frontal assault being a little vague, surely any force is going to attack key points, like has been already mentioned.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers

Jorus_Shadowmaw

[Wargamer]

Umm..

Are you choosing them to be a codex chapter or do you think that the Salamanders are?

Because if you are going for the whole following the proginator foot steps thing, the Salamanders are far from a codex chapter.

Just food for thought though, I agree with the term frontal assault being a little vague, surely any force is going to attack key points, like has been already mentioned.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers

Jorus_Shadowmaw

 

So many people make this mistake it's not funny...

 

Salamanders are a Codex Chapter. They have approximately 1,000 Marines, formed into 10-man Tactical, Assault and Devastator squads. They use Codex ranks (insignia and markings vary, but the ranks don't), for Codex positions within their Chapter.

 

Sure, they may not adhere to it exactly, but in point of fact the Ultramarines themselves no-longer obey the Codex as written - they formed the Tyranid Hunters, remember?

 

The only Chapters that are 'non Codex' are the ones who have never had Guilliman's influence at all. To date, the only ones we know about are the Space Wolves (who still use Russ' organisation) and the Black Templars (who presumably fight as the Legions used to).

 

Salamanders, as with 99% of Chapters, are Codex - they just scribbled their own notes in the margins here and there.

[Jorus_Shadowmaw]

When did the Salamanders get 1000 marines, 6 120 man battle companies plus hq would only be around 800? Added to that they don't have any reserve companies. There are more than just the Space Wolves that aren't codex adherrant, the Minotaurs, Marines Malevolent, Iron Hands, Grey Knights(although they dont really count) etc.

Cheers

Jorus_Shadowmaw

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, they're pretty damned divergent, given that they have 7, rather than 10, Companies, and their Chapter Master is also their First Company Captain. They have less Assault Squads than they should, as well. That's not exactly "they just use different names", and are far, far, far more divergent than the Ultramarines are.

 

Secondly, I've never understood how the Tyranid Hunters are non-Codex, given that they're essentially Veterans who attained that level of skill mainly by fighting Tyranids. The Crimson Fists would have almost identical squads, only specialising against Orks. They're not an additional force within the Chapter, they're part of the First Company. The only reason they're non-Codex is because GW says so, but the reasons for why are laughable, because it'd be impossible not to have non-Codex Veterans otherwise. Fight against something, you're going to pick up useful tricks against them. You cannot tell me that the Codex states that Marines must ignore their experience when fighting opponents, so that they're equally good at everything. Sorry brother Bob, I know you've learned to target the synapse creatures when fighting Tyranids, but you haven't learned a similar trick against Orks, so you're just going to have to ignore that, and just shoot the little guys like everybody else. Otherwise, you'd be specialised, and specialisation is bad.

[Wargamer]

When did the Salamanders get 1000 marines, 6 120 man companies plus hq would only be around 800?

There are more than just the space wolves that aren't codex adherrant, the Minotaurs, Marines Malevolent, Iron Hands etc.

Cheers

Jorus_Shadowmaw

Once again, you've listed Codex Chapters.

 

Iron Hands are Codex, they just changed bits to suit themselves.

 

As a rule of thumb, when deciding if the Chapter is Codex or not, ask yourself "which Codex would be best to represent this Chapter?"

If the answer is Codex: Space Marines, they are a Codex Chapter.

If the answer is Codex: Blood Angels, they are a Codex Chapter.

If the answer is Codex: Dark Angels, they are a Codex Chapter.

If they have their own army list, which is based upon, or requires you to use one of the above, they are a Codex Chapter.

 

As a case in point, every Chapter in the Badab War IA books is Codex. All of them. The Astral Claws, Minotaurs, Exorcists, Space Sharks... all Codex.

 

If you want a really basic rule as to how to work this out, then use this: if the Chapter used (or was supposed to use) the Codex Astartes when it was founded, it is Codex. In the case of the Legions, they count as Codex because they adopted Guilliman's rules (more or less) when they split into Chapters.

 

Again, just because you've decided you don't want to have 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads in a Company does not mean you are no-longer a Codex Chapter!

 

Secondly, I've never understood how the Tyranid Hunters are non-Codex, given that they're essentially Veterans who attained that level of skill mainly by fighting Tyranids. The Crimson Fists would have almost identical squads, only specialising against Orks. They're not an additional force within the Chapter, they're part of the First Company. The only reason they're non-Codex is because GW says so, but the reasons for why are laughable, because it'd be impossible not to have non-Codex Veterans otherwise. Fight against something, you're going to pick up useful tricks against them. You cannot tell me that the Codex states that Marines must ignore their experience when fighting opponents, so that they're equally good at everything. Sorry brother Bob, I know you've learned to target the synapse creatures when fighting Tyranids, but you haven't learned a similar trick against Orks, so you're just going to have to ignore that, and just shoot the little guys like everybody else. Otherwise, you'd be specialised, and specialisation is bad.

The Tyranid Hunters are not a Codex force because they are not 'veterans' in the conventional sense; they exist solely to fight Tyranids, whereas Veterans are meant to fight anything and everything.

 

By creating a force that existed solely to fill this unique role, the Ultramarines deviated from doctrine. Indeed, back in 4th it stated that they were unsure whether to do this at all, but in the end concluded they couldn't afford not to make use of these veterans in such a way.

 

Thus, the Ultramarines are deviant, yet still manage to be the poster boys for the Codex Chapter organisation.

[Lord_Caerolion]

When did the Salamanders get 1000 marines, 6 120 man companies plus hq would only be around 800?

There are more than just the space wolves that aren't codex adherrant, the Minotaurs, Marines Malevolent, Iron Hands etc.

Cheers

Jorus_Shadowmaw

Once again, you've listed Codex Chapters.

 

Iron Hands are Codex, they just changed bits to suit themselves.

 

As a rule of thumb, when deciding if the Chapter is Codex or not, ask yourself "which Codex would be best to represent this Chapter?"

If the answer is Codex: Space Marines, they are a Codex Chapter.

If the answer is Codex: Blood Angels, they are a Codex Chapter.

If the answer is Codex: Dark Angels, they are a Codex Chapter.

If they have their own army list, which is based upon, or requires you to use one of the above, they are a Codex Chapter.

 

As a case in point, every Chapter in the Badab War IA books is Codex. All of them. The Astral Claws, Minotaurs, Exorcists, Space Sharks... all Codex.

 

If you want a really basic rule as to how to work this out, then use this: if the Chapter used (or was supposed to use) the Codex Astartes when it was founded, it is Codex. In the case of the Legions, they count as Codex because they adopted Guilliman's rules (more or less) when they split into Chapters.

 

Again, just because you've decided you don't want to have 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads in a Company does not mean you are no-longer a Codex Chapter!

By that logic, the Black Templars used to be a Codex Chapter, as they used the Space Marine codex to play their army, with modifications. Personally, while I agree with your logic that the Chapters listed are Codex Chapters, you can't deny that they're not divergent. The Salamanders have a radically different Chapter organisation, with the Iron Hands having their own unique organisation as well.

 

The Tyranid Hunters are not a Codex force because they are not 'veterans' in the conventional sense; they exist solely to fight Tyranids, whereas Veterans are meant to fight anything and everything.

 

By creating a force that existed solely to fill this unique role, the Ultramarines deviated from doctrine. Indeed, back in 4th it stated that they were unsure whether to do this at all, but in the end concluded they couldn't afford not to make use of these veterans in such a way.

 

Thus, the Ultramarines are deviant, yet still manage to be the poster boys for the Codex Chapter organisation.

 

The Tyranid Hunters only ever fight Tyranids? Could you provide a source to back that up? They specialise in fighting Tyranids, but they won't refuse to deploy against other opponents. Nothing to my recollection has ever stated that they won't fight against, say, the Orks, they're just Marines with a far more specific area of expertise than are usually inducted into the First Company. I know what the 4th ed background stated on them, but it made no sense. It essentially said "the Ultramarines debated over whether to allow perfectly fine veterans to actually be recognised as Veterans." Apparently, you can only become a member of the First Company if you've got roughly equal experience fighting each of the Imperium's foes.

[Jorus_Shadowmaw]

The Minotaurs are known as being anti codex... I'll concede the Iron Hands, but you still have no answer for only seven companies, 6 of which have 120 marines and my math makes that less than Codex Chapter strength.

[Jorus_Shadowmaw]

The Minotaurs are known as being anti codex... I'll concede the Iron Hands, but you still have no answer for only seven companies, 6 of which have 120 marines and my math makes that less than Codex Chapter strength.

Also if the codex allows enough divergance to have different sized companies, how is a tyranid specific force non-codex?

And with the legion thing, A) the Salamanders opposed the codex and B) they didn't split into chapters.

[Wargamer]

By that logic, the Black Templars used to be a Codex Chapter, as they used the Space Marine codex to play their army, with modifications.

Perhaps you should go and learn what "rule of thumb" means, then you'll understand the flaw in your argument.

 

Personally, while I agree with your logic that the Chapters listed are Codex Chapters, you can't deny that they're not divergent. The Salamanders have a radically different Chapter organisation, with the Iron Hands having their own unique organisation as well.

The Salamanders were so crippled by the Heresy that they had less than a Chapter's worth of Marines when the Second Founding took place. As such, they never changed their overall structure; just the squad-level organisation. In effect, part of the reason they do not adhere entirely to the Codex Astartes is it was physically impossible for them to do so!

 

However, the fact they did adapt their Legion organisation to bring themselves into line with the Codex makes them a Codex chapter. Yes, they have unique traits, but they're clearly Codex.

 

As for the Iron Hands... just read the descriptions of them:

 

"The Iron Hands are organised in a similar fashion to a Codex Chapter but with several distinct differences. The Chapter consists of ten "Clan Companies" which are composed in a fashion comparable to that of a Codex Battle Company. Each Clan Company is an independant entity, responsible for its own recruitment and, as such, there are no dedicated Scout or Veteran Companies." - taken from 40KLexicanum.

 

Their Clan Companies follow a Codex pattern of organisation. The implementation is different, but they are Codex Companies; six tactical squads, two assault squads, two devastator squads.

 

The Tyranid Hunters only ever fight Tyranids? Could you provide a source to back that up? They specialise in fighting Tyranids, but they won't refuse to deploy against other opponents. Nothing to my recollection has ever stated that they won't fight against, say, the Orks, they're just Marines with a far more specific area of expertise than are usually inducted into the First Company. I know what the 4th ed background stated on them, but it made no sense. It essentially said "the Ultramarines debated over whether to allow perfectly fine veterans to actually be recognised as Veterans." Apparently, you can only become a member of the First Company if you've got roughly equal experience fighting each of the Imperium's foes.

The Tyranid Hunters were formed for the express purpose of hunting down and destroying the Tyranids, as well as training others to do so. You will note that no such behaviour is seen elsewhere; you do not see 'Eldar Hunters', for example.

 

That's what the debate was about; the Ultramarines were proposing to essentially add a new type of squad to the First Company - one that had no prior sanction or precedent within the Codex Astartes.