Haywire Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Author's Note: So, I've -finally- managed to write an IA for my Chapter after several years of toying with ideas, and generally trying to deal with writer's block. Pretty sure there's plenty of issues, but hey, that's why I've posted this here! As a first draft, it is to be expected there will be issues. I'll sort out the proper formatting for the side bars at a later date as well when I'm at the point where I can start to finalise things for a final draft. I'd say go easy on me as it's my first IA, but... well... I wouldn't be a true son of Dorn then, would I? BRING ON THE PAIN! I CAN TAKE IT! Index Astartes The Argent Knights Space Marines Chapter Argent Knights Colour Scheme Origins The Argent Knights are an ancient Chapter with a long and glorious history. The Chapter was founded in M33, its training cadre and gene-seed drawn from the Emperor's own Imperial Fists. The first Chapter Master, or Knight-Lord, of the Argent Knights was Valdemar Herzog, formerly the Captain of the Imperial Fists' 5th Company. Along with his training cadre, Herzog wasted no time in setting about the creation of the new Chapter, selecting the world of Maeistas, in the Vexillum sector to the north-east of Segmentum Solar. As the Argent Knights came to fruition, much of the training cadre returned to the Imperial Fists, leaving Herzog behind to lead these new Sons of Dorn. The initial purpose of the Chapter was to reinforce the Vexillum sector against the advances of Waaagh! Gitsnippa. Fighting with all the unyielding stubbornness for which their forbears are rightly famed, the Argent Knights acted as an anvil upon which the horde would blunt its teeth before allowing the hammer of Imperial allies to come to bear and slay the beast. Following their victory against Waaagh! Gitsnippa, the Argent Knights set about rebuilding their numbers before embarking fully onto the galactic stage. Before his internment in the sacred chassis of a dreadnought, Herzog led the Knights through all corners of the galaxy, putting all to the sword that would stand against the Imperium. Successive Chapter Masters of the Argent Knights became more directly influenced by the Maeistan culture, and over time, the Knights earned a reputation among fellow Astartes for the arrogance they have displayed on the field. While none can deny their battlefield effectiveness, their assuredness in the purity of their own blood has led to them gradually seeking to place themselves higher than others, and were noted for their sour relations with more 'barbaric' Chapters who, they claimed, lacked the civilised nobility required of Astartes. This reputation for arrogance was never more apparent than during the rule of Knight-Lord Gaston Sorrell. Though he was undoubtedly a mighty warrior, he had garnered little respect among his fellow Astartes. His successor found himself fighting not just on the physical battlefield, but on the political one, also. Sorrell's arrogance and intransigence had all but severed most ties that the Knights had with various institutions in the Imperium, leading to supply issues which are said to have contributed to the deaths of both Sorrell and numerous Chapter brothers. In the centuries and millennia since Sorrell's death, the Argent Knights have worked to repair their reputation with the various power groups throughout the Emperor's domain through negotiation and pacts so that they may regain their golden age. Since the dark days under Sorrell, the Chapter has been able to fully recover that which was lost. While still ostentatious, it is noted that the Argent Knights have steadily improved on their attitude into the 41st Millennium. Knight-Lord Gaston Sorrell Knight-Lord Gaston Sorrell stands as one of the Chapter's greatest heroes. As the Argent Knights' representative, he won the Feast of Blades in 349.M38, and was elevated to Knight-Lord some decades later. A warrior unmatched, Sorrell was seen by his Brothers as the very image of what being an Argent Knight entails. Throughout his tenure as Knight-Lord of the Argent Knights, he earned numerous accolades, and personally put down numerous enemies of the Imperium.With each victory, Sorrell's reputation grew and as his reputation grew, so too did his arrogance. This did little for repairing the damage that had been done by prior Chapter Masters to the reputation they held with various Imperial institutions. It was due to this poor reputation that the Argent Knights were under-equipped compared to their earlier glory days. Many of their suits of Terminator armour stood unused in the reliquaries gathering dust for the Techmarines and other armourers lacked the parts that were needed to restore them to full functionality again. The Chapter's ancients slumbered; for Gaston and several of his predecessors had grown weary with the malcontent they espoused with the Chapter's ways, brushing off their protests as the words of those who still lived in the past, while they represented the future. To those few that asked, of course, the usual response was given that they daren't risk their Ancients when they lack the means to repair the chassis if needed. Sorrell finally met his end on an arid desert world that would come to be known as Sorrell's Folly, much to the chagrin of the Argent Knights. The Imperium had learned that there was a horde of Greenskins gathering together in preparation for a Waaagh! into the nearby systems. It was here that the Knight-Lord led half of the Chapter in combat with the horde, supported by regiments of the Imperial Guard. The Greenskins had gathered on one side of Thunda Scar Canyon, with the Imperial forces on the other with only a single natural bridge between them. Ever-hungry for more glory, and spurring all common sense, Knight-Lord Sorrell ordered his Chapter into a charge on the Greenskins on the other side. The records of the Argent Knights claim that the Greenskins charged forth to meet them in the middle of the bridge and began to push the Knights back. Victory was only gained when Sorrell ordered his forces back, holding off the entire horde single-handedly, waiting until his forces were clear before destroying the bridge with one mighty stroke of his blade, plunging himself and the Warboss to their deaths into the canyon below. Other Imperial records instead state that Sorrell had actually underestimated the bridge's ability to hold him up in Terminator armour, and that it had collapsed beneath him to the amusement of the Orks on the other side. Ultimately, however, the Imperial force was repelled with high casualties, and the Argent Knights lost many Battle-Brothers and Chapter relics, much of which could only be recovered centuries later when the Chapter was able to return and finish the job, reconsecrating all that was recovered to cleanse them of the Greenskin taint. To this day, Sorrell remains a controversial figure in the Chapter. Some Knights continue to regard him as a true hero of the Chapter who died in glorious combat, while others among the ranks see him as a perfect example of all that was wrong with the Chapter, and do not regard him with the same reverence due to the damage he had done to the reputation of the Knights to the wider Imperium, and the subsequent decline the Chapter had experienced. Homeworld Maeistas is a feudal world in the Vexillum sector, located to the north-east of Segmentum Solar. It is a temperate world that orbits its star in an elliptical orbit, leading to punishing winters at the extremes of each circuit, while the 'Summer' periods are noted as being somewhat cooler than the Terran average. The surface of Maeistas contains numerous continents covered in grassy plains, dense coniferous forests and dotted with white-capped mountains in its northern hemisphere, and it is here that the people of Maeistas make their homes. The society of Maeistas revolves around numerous countries that are in a near-constant state of warfare with one another, whether over land or due to petty squabbles between the kingdoms and nobility. The borders across the inhabited continents are evershifting as dynasties rise and fall, and battles are won or lost. Every decade, the Argent Knights will hold a tournament on Chapter ground for all those who would aspire to join their ranks on the island of Bornell where the sons of the nobility will compete to earn a place of their own. Violence during the tournament is strictly forbidden, and more than one noble house in the history of Maiestas has been completely purged by the Emperor's Knights for violating the relative peace of the tournament. Those scions of the houses that perform well are then taken by the Knights to the Chapter's Fortress-Monastery at the planet's north pole. From here, they begin the process of ascending to the ranks of the Emperor's Knights. Among the noble houses, it is a point of considerable esteem for one of their sons to successfully join the Argent Knights. Further esteem is heaped upon those families who sired a true hero of the Chapter in living memory, and are treated akin to royalty in their respective lands. Combat Doctrine As can be expected of a Chapter that has descended from the Imperial Fists, the tactics employed by the Argent Knights tend to be brutal and direct. In many regards, the Chapter places a high emphasis on close combat with most, if not all, of the Marines in a company being equipped with some form of close combat weapon. The Knights combine this martial focus with the patience of seasoned warriors and the stubborn nature and talents of their parent Chapter in such a way that they have become rather adept at attrition fighting and siege warfare. The Blades of Maiestas The Blades of Maeistas are one of the most sought-after awards for an Argent Knight, yet are also one of the first awards that may be bestowed upon them. The blades serve as a physical display of the valour and skill of the Marine, and are a requirement for advancement within the Chapter. Nominally a longsword, these weapons are used to settle matters of honour between Marines of the Chapter. Though intended for duelling, they are finely crafted and more than capable of serving as a secondary weapon in a pinch. Not only do these blades serve as the central aspect of the Argent Knight honour system, they also serve as the basis for punishment alongside the pain glove. A Knight that has committed a serious breach of discipline may have his blade ritually broken by the Company's Chaplain. These Marines will wear the broken hilt of their blade and are assigned to special Black Knight squads, their squad heraldry and one of their pauldrons painted black in shame. Similarly, those Knights who lose their blades on the battlefield, whose blades are broken on the battlefield, or who fail in certain oaths to the Chapter, will also join these Black Knight formations. In future engagements, a Company's Black Knights will form the vanguard of the assault, particularly in siege scenarios, drowning their shame in the blood of their foes. Naturally, the attrition rate among Black Knights is high, but those who survive in victory may have their blades reforged or repaired by the Chapter's armourers before being returned to their original squads anew. Those who die are interred with all the honours given to other Battle Brothers with their blades reforged also. Compared to other Chapters, especially those akin to the White Scars or the Raven Guard, the Argent Knights move ponderously on the field, lacking many of the tools that these mobile Chapters employ, and instead seek to make up for this deficit with sheer hitting power. Assaults by the Argent Knights are preceded by Black Knight squads; Brother-Marines who have committed some breach of discipline or failed in their oaths and so seek to redeem themselves in the most dangerous assignments of all. Much of the Argent Knights' tactics are ultimately inspired by the Codex Astartes, with individual commanders taking the lessons of the Codex so they might apply them to their preferred combat style, supplementing these lessons with the Book of Five Spheres when it was codified to fight as Lord Dorn expects his sons to fight. Organisation Broadly speaking, the Argent Knights follow the Codex Astartes as far as the organisation of the Chapter may be concerned. They possess the ten companies as dictated by the Codex, with the First Company housing most of their veterans, the Second through Fifth as Battle Companies, Sixth through Ninth as reserve companies, and the scouts serving in the Tenth. Given the Argent Knights' preference for close quarters combat, they make use of three Assault Squads per battle company in lieu of one of the six usual Tactical Squads. This plays in with the progression of the Marines through the ranks as they gradually close with the enemy as they gain more experience in the theatre of war. As the Argent Knights prefer a direct approach and disdain hit and run tactics as the province of false warriors too afraid to square up to the enemy and put them down face to face, they possess far fewer jump packs, bikes, and land speeders than the average Chapter may have access to. Each company barely has enough jump packs to outfit a single assault squad, and the use of the Chapter's few bikes is the sole province of the Sixth company. In place of these tools of speed and flight, the Argent Knights have put more effort into gathering Terminator armour and the heavier vehicles employed by the Emperor's Angels of Death. Given the Chapter's above-average number of Terminator suits, the Argent Knights possesses enough suits to fully equip the First Company, and so these honoured veterans will always take to the field in these glorious suits. Commanders seeking to make use of Sternguard or Vanguard squads will draw them from their Company's finest warriors. Beliefs Following in the traditions of the Imperial Fists, and coupled with the knightly culture of Maeistas, the Argent Knights place a very high emphasis on honour whether it be on the battlefield or through the honour duels for which the sons of Dorn are famed. Given their appreciation and use of honour duels, the Argent Knights were regular participants to the Feast of Blades, and have been known to hold it in such high esteem that the chosen Champion has been known to abandon a campaign and leave the warzone to attend. Indeed, it is said that one of the factors in the Chapters' change of character arose when their brethren threatened to expel the Knights from their brotherhood unless they were to change their ways and stop dishonouring the name of Rogal Dorn and, by extension, the rest of their brotherhood as well. The pride that the Argent Knights show in their quest for glory and honour is made the most obvious through the numerous armour decorations and gilded detailing they employ as they ascend through the ranks. This approach to proclaiming their personal glory has led to them developing something of a reputation among their fellow Astartes for being ostentatious in the ornamental additions they employ and, in the past, for being overly arrogant when dealing with other forces. Even by the lofty standards of the Astartes, the Argent Knights are reputed to have a will of steel, and the patience of glaciers. Discipline is key, and usage of the Pain Glove is used to punish almost all minor infractions, as well as a form of meditation to hone their wills as a sword may be sharpened on a grindstone. This powerful will is said to be the main source of the Argent Knights' prowess in attrition warfare and the source of their patience when dealing with siege scenarios. Gene-Seed It is perhaps unsurprising, given their nature and values on the field of battle, that the Argent Knights have the honour of tracing their lineage to Rogal Dorn through his chosen sons, the Imperial Fists. Like the Imperial Fists, the Betcher's Gland and the Suus-an Membrane of the Argent Knights has degraded to the point of uselessness. Naturally, the Chapter's Chaplains will step in to downplay the loss of these precious organs. As they preach, spitting at one's enemy is something for lowborn curs and not a true son of the Emperor, while entering hibernation is to retreat from one's pain, while true sons of Rogal Dorn should embrace the pain and fight through it with all the stubborn determination that their gene-father would demand of them. Recruitment Typically speaking, the recruits for the Argent Knights Chapter all hail from the nobility of Maeistas, selected at the tournament on Bornell as they prove themselves with their blades. When they are taken to the Chapter Keep, they begin the process of becoming an Argent Knight. Those youths who survive the implantation process go on to serve in the Chapter's scout squads. As part of their training, the Scouts will be used against the people of Maeistas. This serves two main purposes. Firstly, it allows the youths to develop and hone their skills as bringers of death in a relatively safe environment. They also serve to maintain the status quo of Maeistas, dealing with those who may develop new technological advancements that remove the need for the traditional methods of combat that keeps the population strong. Upon proving themselves on Maiestas, the initiates then join the Battle Companies to serve on a proper battlefield, using the skills they had developed to aid the war effort in the wider galaxy. Here, the scouts are taught the patience that they will need when they enter a warzone as true Argent Knights do through their respective missions, where stealth is key and careful movement is required to accomplish missions that brute force will not and their more experienced brethren would disdain. Battle-cry The Argent Knights are known to use several battle cries, usually first shouted by the ranking officer on the field before being repeated by the other Battle-Brothers en-masse. Some of the more common cries are as follows: "Maiestas victorious!" "His will be done!" "For Emperor and Imperium!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 Update: Sorted out some of the formatting. If, at a later point, someone could inform me on how to add the borders/captions and the sidebars with the BBCode, it would be much appreciated! C&C still welcome on the overall content. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3067525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKO Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I enjoyed the read, it is a nice IA nothing flashy. You will not get alot of comments due to the fact that there isnt anything controversial about it. For some reason they only leave comments when they can bash ideas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3068348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I like it. It has some nice ideas and everything kinda fits. Â The arrogance gives the chapter a darker vibe and also nicely explains their lack of supplies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3068610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 Thank you both for the kind words in that regard. Been looking over it some more, and have identified other areas I'll need to expand on, and finally figured out ways to word further thoughts, so I should hopefully be able to expand on some of the areas that are a little light on content and such. Should have those done tomorrow morning. Â On the subject of the loss of supplies. My intention was really to have it so the supply issues were in the past, and were a contributing factor in Sorrell's epic fail. Shoulda clarified that a bit more, and how the Chapter has been able to get the supplies they've needed during the millennia since as they work to gain the favour of the various factions again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3068939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKO Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Cant wait till you expand on your ideas, the chapter is arrogant which I like alot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3069117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitorHayn Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 You will not get alot of comments due to the fact that there isnt anything controversial about it. For some reason they only leave comments when they can bash ideas. Au contraire, mon frere. Sorry to burst CKO's bubble, but I'm an equal opportunity critic :tu: So let's begin, shall we? Â Origins: Pretty solid. No real notes here. I do have a question that I've been pondering though. I wonder, how long do you think the typical Imperial Fists captaincy is? It seems that we've always got their company leaders running off to start new Chapters. Must be hard to keep good help :D Â Homeworld: punishing winters at the extremes of each circuit, and cooler periods during the 'Summer' months You might reword this. I understand what you meant, but your words just told me that the summers are cooler than punishing winters. Â Despite the changing borders, the wars will rarely ever come to any real conclusion as war-winning technological advancements have been mysteriously destroyed. Kings find themselves suddenly struck down by lightning when their lands and armies get too big and powerful, leading to civil war between the noble houses to find a new king. Figures who could unite the warring factions are found dead in their beds, and prominent smiths and armourers will disappear completely at the apex of their careers. The only clue of any wrong-doing lay in the half-glimpsed shadows of giant men departing the scene of the crime with the tattered remains of another land's colours left behind, thus ensuring the varying kingdoms have plentiful excuses to keep warring. I have two main issues with this. First, take a look at our own world and its history. Modern nations seem to stay at war pretty easily without anyone's help. No real danger of world unification that required outside assistance in the last few milennia or so. Second, this just seems out of character for your Chapter's Marines. These mighty warriors, possessed of their disdainful highborn arrogance, would stoop to sully themselves in the affairs of mortals? Pish posh. It's not a deal-breaker, it's just not really necessary. Â Combat Doctrine: As can be expected of a Chapter that has descended from the Imperial Fists, the tactics employed by the Argent Knights tend to be direct, lacking in subtlety, imagination, or finesse. Ho there, good gentleman. I'm going to have to ask you to halt that equine mammal right there. The Imperial Fists were reputed to be the most accomplished siege masters in the known galaxy. According to Index Astartes II, "As siege specialists, the Legion functioned as an assault formation, surgically applying force where and when it was required to shatter enemy defenses, often deciding the outcome of campaigns," and in Horus Rising, Horus once remarked to Dorn that "if I ever laid assault to a bastion possessed by you... then the war would last for all eternity, the best in attack matched by the best in defence." There are probably better, more positive words you could use to describe your Chapter. The object is to make them sound good, after all. Â close combat...attrition warfare...boarding actions and combat in dense environments...siege warfare It's okay to say they're all-rounders, y'know. Â Organization: This is the section of every IA (even those I write) that I hate the most. No matter what anyone writes in it, it always boils down to "This is how my Chapter doesn't follow the Codex but kinda still does," excepting the ones that don't follow the Codex at all, of course. Unfortunately, it's also one of the few opportunities to illustrate the Chapter's unique personality. So here is the suggestion I pose to you. Go ahead and tell all about how your Chapter deviates from the Great Book of Smurfiness (may its readers be ever eating Cheetos). Just don't say that that is what you're doing. Make it about what your Marines do and why they do it. Constantly referencing that it deviates from the Codex only makes C&C gurus twitch in their rolly chairs. Â Beliefs: and has led to their participation in the centennial Feast of Blades According to fluff, only twelve Chapters are invited to send champions to this event. However, I would say it's still viable since the fluff does not state that the same Chapters are invited every century. I would suggest though, that you play this up as the great honor that it is. It is unlikely that your Chapter would be invited to each one, but perhaps there was one such event in which your Chapter's champion excelled/performed poorly and it colored your Chapter's reputation for good or ill in the eyes of their peers. Just a thought. Â Geneseed: I like the part where the Chaplains spin the honour of being without the malfunctioning organs. Very slick. Another good thing to talk about in this section is the recruitment/implantation process. Â Side Note: If you can, please code the sidebars. The only I could think about all the way along my first read-through was "What the deuce is a Black Knight?" Â All things considered, it's a solid concept you have here. As CKO said, there's just nothing flashy about it. If you don't receive many comments it won't be so much for lack of controversy, but rather that there's not much to say. The Argent Knights are exactly what everyone would expect Space Marines to be. And that is exactly why, forgive my bluntness, we can't relate to them. Being human, we can only relate to humanity in any great extent. Show a bit less of what they are and a little more of who they are, and I believe you'll find your audience. Â Cheers and good luck! Â You will not get alot of comments due to the fact that there isnt anything controversial about it. For some reason they only leave comments when they can bash ideas. Au contraire, mon frere. Sorry to burst CKO's bubble, but I'm an equal opportunity critic ;) So let's begin, shall we? Â Origins: Pretty solid. No real notes here. I do have a question that I've been pondering though. I wonder, how long do you think the typical Imperial Fists captaincy is? It seems that we've always got their company leaders running off to start new Chapters. Must be hard to keep good help ;) Â Homeworld: punishing winters at the extremes of each circuit, and cooler periods during the 'Summer' months You might reword this. I understand what you meant, but your words just told me that the summers are cooler than punishing winters. Â Despite the changing borders, the wars will rarely ever come to any real conclusion as war-winning technological advancements have been mysteriously destroyed. Kings find themselves suddenly struck down by lightning when their lands and armies get too big and powerful, leading to civil war between the noble houses to find a new king. Figures who could unite the warring factions are found dead in their beds, and prominent smiths and armourers will disappear completely at the apex of their careers. The only clue of any wrong-doing lay in the half-glimpsed shadows of giant men departing the scene of the crime with the tattered remains of another land's colours left behind, thus ensuring the varying kingdoms have plentiful excuses to keep warring. I have two main issues with this. First, take a look at our own world and its history. Modern nations seem to stay at war pretty easily without anyone's help. No real danger of world unification that required outside assistance in the last few milennia or so. Second, this just seems out of character for your Chapter's Marines. These mighty warriors, possessed of their disdainful highborn arrogance, would stoop to sully themselves in the affairs of mortals? Pish posh. It's not a deal-breaker, it's just not really necessary. Â Combat Doctrine: As can be expected of a Chapter that has descended from the Imperial Fists, the tactics employed by the Argent Knights tend to be direct, lacking in subtlety, imagination, or finesse. Ho there, good gentleman. I'm going to have to ask you to halt that equine mammal right there. The Imperial Fists were reputed to be the most accomplished siege masters in the known galaxy. According to Index Astartes II, "As siege specialists, the Legion functioned as an assault formation, surgically applying force where and when it was required to shatter enemy defenses, often deciding the outcome of campaigns," and in Horus Rising, Horus once remarked to Dorn that "if I ever laid assault to a bastion possessed by you... then the war would last for all eternity, the best in attack matched by the best in defence." There are probably better, more positive words you could use to describe your Chapter. The object is to make them sound good, after all. Â close combat...attrition warfare...boarding actions and combat in dense environments...siege warfare It's okay to say they're all-rounders, y'know. Â Organization: This is the section of every IA (even those I write) that I hate the most. No matter what anyone writes in it, it always boils down to "This is how my Chapter doesn't follow the Codex but kinda still does," excepting the ones that don't follow the Codex at all, of course. Unfortunately, it's also one of the few opportunities to illustrate the Chapter's unique personality. So here is the suggestion I pose to you. Go ahead and tell all about how your Chapter deviates from the Great Book of Smurfiness (may its readers be ever eating Cheetos). Just don't say that that is what you're doing. Make it about what your Marines do and why they do it. Constantly referencing that it deviates from the Codex only makes C&C gurus twitch in their rolly chairs. Â Beliefs: and has led to their participation in the centennial Feast of Blades According to fluff, only twelve Chapters are invited to send champions to this event. However, I would say it's still viable since the fluff does not state that the same Chapters are invited every century. I would suggest though, that you play this up as the great honor that it is. It is unlikely that your Chapter would be invited to each one, but perhaps there was one such event in which your Chapter's champion excelled/performed poorly and it colored your Chapter's reputation for good or ill in the eyes of their peers. Just a thought. Â Geneseed: I like the part where the Chaplains spin the honour of being without the malfunctioning organs. Very slick. Another good thing to talk about in this section is the recruitment/implantation process. Â Side Note: If you can, please code the sidebars. The only I could think about all the way along my first read-through was "What the deuce is a Black Knight?" Â All things considered, it's a solid concept you have here. As CKO said, there's just nothing flashy about it. If you don't receive many comments it won't be so much for lack of controversy, but rather that there's not much to say. The Argent Knights are exactly what everyone would expect Space Marines to be. And that is exactly why, forgive my bluntness, we can't relate to them. Being human, we can only relate to humanity in any great extent. Show a bit less of what they are and a little more of who they are, and I believe you'll find your audience. Â Cheers and good luck! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3069403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 Thank you very much for the feedback there, Mr. Hayn. Shall be addressing your points one at a time with my responses and such. Hope it clears things up, and... stuff. Words fail me at the moment, on account of feeling a bit under the weather today. Shall see how it all goes. Â Origins:Pretty solid. No real notes here. I do have a question that I've been pondering though. I wonder, how long do you think the typical Imperial Fists captaincy is? It seems that we've always got their company leaders running off to start new Chapters. Must be hard to keep good help :) Â I see your point there. Have downgraded Herzog to a Sergeant. Figured it'd make more sense if he at least came from the First Company, as the founding of an entire Chapter is not something you might put someone from a 'line' company in charge of. Â punishing winters at the extremes of each circuit, and cooler periods during the 'Summer' months You might reword this. I understand what you meant, but your words just told me that the summers are cooler than punishing winters. Â Done. :tu: Â Â HomeworldDespite the changing borders, the wars will rarely ever come to any real conclusion as war-winning technological advancements have been mysteriously destroyed. Kings find themselves suddenly struck down by lightning when their lands and armies get too big and powerful, leading to civil war between the noble houses to find a new king. Figures who could unite the warring factions are found dead in their beds, and prominent smiths and armourers will disappear completely at the apex of their careers. The only clue of any wrong-doing lay in the half-glimpsed shadows of giant men departing the scene of the crime with the tattered remains of another land's colours left behind, thus ensuring the varying kingdoms have plentiful excuses to keep warring. I have two main issues with this. First, take a look at our own world and its history. Modern nations seem to stay at war pretty easily without anyone's help. No real danger of world unification that required outside assistance in the last few milennia or so. Second, this just seems out of character for your Chapter's Marines. These mighty warriors, possessed of their disdainful highborn arrogance, would stoop to sully themselves in the affairs of mortals? Pish posh. It's not a deal-breaker, it's just not really necessary. Â What I'm mainly trying to get at is that the Argent Knights meddle in the affairs of Maeistas to maintain a status quo of sorts, to ensure that nobody wins the wars, and nobody gets too powerful. They also seek to prevent the society from advancing technologically to the point where firearms dominated the battlefield. Roughly speaking, I've imagined Maeistas to be a bit like late 15th-Century Europe without any form of blackpowder weaponry, and the Knights seek to keep it that way so people are forced to kill their enemies up close and such. Have deleted that section from the Homeworld area, and I'll be trying to... well, expand on it and draw it in based on the feedback in the Recruitment section (Which is coming soon, I hope.) Â Â Combat DoctrineAs can be expected of a Chapter that has descended from the Imperial Fists, the tactics employed by the Argent Knights tend to be direct, lacking in subtlety, imagination, or finesse. Ho there, good gentleman. I'm going to have to ask you to halt that equine mammal right there. The Imperial Fists were reputed to be the most accomplished siege masters in the known galaxy. According to Index Astartes II, "As siege specialists, the Legion functioned as an assault formation, surgically applying force where and when it was required to shatter enemy defenses, often deciding the outcome of campaigns," and in Horus Rising, Horus once remarked to Dorn that "if I ever laid assault to a bastion possessed by you... then the war would last for all eternity, the best in attack matched by the best in defence." There are probably better, more positive words you could use to describe your Chapter. The object is to make them sound good, after all. Â Arr. I used those words because I recall reading about the Imperial Fists (On Lexicanum, admittedly), and it uses the word 'unimaginative' in reference to the Imperial Fists' leaders, despite their excellent planning skills. Was trying to play along a similar theme there in that the Argent Knights tend not to bother with elaborate plans with hit and run attacks, feints, and other 'elaborate' tactics, preferring instead to just pulverise their enemies through sheer hitting power, grit, and determination. Â close combat...attrition warfare...boarding actions and combat in dense environments...siege warfare It's okay to say they're all-rounders, y'know. Â Think I may have gone a bit overboard there, yes. Point I was trying to make is that they're almost like the midway point between the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars, being implacable siege specialists who aren't going anywhere that have a preference for close combat that is naturally a boon in boarding situations and dense environments. Â Organization:This is the section of every IA (even those I write) that I hate the most. No matter what anyone writes in it, it always boils down to "This is how my Chapter doesn't follow the Codex but kinda still does," excepting the ones that don't follow the Codex at all, of course. Unfortunately, it's also one of the few opportunities to illustrate the Chapter's unique personality. So here is the suggestion I pose to you. Go ahead and tell all about how your Chapter deviates from the Great Book of Smurfiness (may its readers be ever eating Cheetos). Just don't say that that is what you're doing. Make it about what your Marines do and why they do it. Constantly referencing that it deviates from the Codex only makes C&C gurus twitch in their rolly chairs. Â Have adjusted the organisation section as advised there. Admittedly, I've hit a brick wall of sorts on that front in where the Terminators fit in the organisation. While, of course, the Terminators are nominally First Company, it then leads to issues in how these Terminators are distributed to other battlezones, and in so doing, the role that the First Company Captain would get to play. If his company is spread out among the Chapter... well, he'd probably end up twiddling his thumbs until multiple companies come together for a particular action. Considering having the First Company be a Battle Company like any other that is led by the Chapter Master (So no First Captain), and then have the Chapter's Terminators as permanent parts of said Battle Companies. Â Â Beliefs:and has led to their participation in the centennial Feast of Blades According to fluff, only twelve Chapters are invited to send champions to this event. However, I would say it's still viable since the fluff does not state that the same Chapters are invited every century. I would suggest though, that you play this up as the great honor that it is. It is unlikely that your Chapter would be invited to each one, but perhaps there was one such event in which your Chapter's champion excelled/performed poorly and it colored your Chapter's reputation for good or ill in the eyes of their peers. Just a thought. Â Must confess, at this stage, not quite sure how to address that particular point. I was under the assumption that the twelve Chapters were a permanent thing, as it were. Admittedly, the reason I threw it in was in an attempt to better tie the Argent Knights in with the other Sons of Dorn, as they are all meant to be a rather close-knit brotherhood. Part of me was tempted to have the Imperial Fists have a go at the Knights for their bad reputation affecting all of them, and to change their ways or leave, but then it felt a bit too much like the Inquisitor's Magic Wand that just comes in and fixes everything. Â Geneseed:I like the part where the Chaplains spin the honour of being without the malfunctioning organs. Very slick. Another good thing to talk about in this section is the recruitment/implantation process. Â Am working on a recruitment section. Sorta slow going due to multiple ideas hitting me and thus leading to bouts of indecisiveness. Just trying to figure how the Scouts would fit in with a Chapter that doesn't believe in the more subtle methods of warfare. So far, I've had the idea that they have to willingly 'dishonour' themselves with these unconventional tactics so they strive harder to earn their black carapaces and properly build up their honour... not sure on that, however, especially given the arrogant bend. Then and again, I am trying to tone down that part in the 'modern' day, so there's still a hint of arrogance, but nothing like as bad as it was when they alienated everyone. (Don't feel like doing a Chapter in decline at this stage. Would rather it be a Chapter that has spent the past few thousand years clawing back their reputation and making up for all the... insults... they may have given) Â Side Note:If you can, please code the sidebars. Haven't got a clue on how to do that at this stage. My search fu has proven relatively weak in that regard. Â Hope it all makes more sense now at this stage. Further C&C would be much appreciated. Pretty sure I haven't quite... well... addressed everything as well as I probably should have. :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3069573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitorHayn Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I see you've been busy. Let me see if I can help you with some of these little snags you mentioned.  Have downgraded Herzog to a Sergeant. Figured it'd make more sense if he at least came from the First Company, as the founding of an entire Chapter is not something you might put someone from a 'line' company in charge of. I was just making an observation at this point. It would make sense to use a Captain as a new Founding's Chapter Master. However, if your plan is to have the Chapter only trained, not led, by Imperial Fists, I would agree with your conclusion of Veteran Sergeant.  They also seek to prevent the society from advancing technologically to the point where firearms dominated the battlefield. Roughly speaking, I've imagined Maeistas to be a bit like late 15th-Century Europe without any form of blackpowder weaponry, and the Knights seek to keep it that way so people are forced to kill their enemies up close and such. I have an alternative suggestion. It would seem that you're operating under the assumption that every colonized world in the Imperium is composed of the same basic elements. In short, perhaps they've never been able to advance any further as the means to create firearms/explosives (ie. black powder, saltpeter, plasma technology, etc.) simply do not exist on Maiestas. Can't work with materials you don't have. And maybe that's one reason why the Chapter has such a fascination with Dorn's way of war. If they've never heard a gunshot or seen an explosion, it would an incredibly awesome and empowering experience to harness those things.  Was trying to play along a similar theme there in that the Argent Knights tend not to bother with elaborate plans with hit and run attacks, feints, and other 'elaborate' tactics, preferring instead to just pulverise their enemies through sheer hitting power, grit, and determination. Ah. This is a common enough misconception for many Dorn-inspired Chapters. Siege warfare is anything but simply "surround it and blow it to Shangri-La." Sieges, for both sides, are logistical nightmares. Both offender and defender must find ways to maintain supplies: the former cannot lay siege without excessive amounts of ammunition, reinforcements, and supplies while the latter cannot, as is usually the goal, outlast the siege without the same. Gaining victory over both the opposition and time requires meticulous planning, creative ingenuity, constant adjustment and anticipation of the enemy's movements. In many ways, siegecraft is one of the most difficult ways to fight due to the insufficiency of martial strength.  Point I was trying to make is that they're almost like the midway point between the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars, being implacable siege specialists who aren't going anywhere that have a preference for close combat that is naturally a boon in boarding situations and dense environments. Like my Combat Doctrine comment before, don't get so caught up in comparisons. Imagine how you want the Chapter to be and have them become that image through their own devices. Yes, lineage is a factor. The fact remains, though, that you were not born riding a bicycle. You learned to through education and experience.  While, of course, the Terminators are nominally First Company, it then leads to issues in how these Terminators are distributed to other battlezones, and in so doing, the role that the First Company Captain would get to play. Not really. Captaincy is a leadership position, but it is largely an administrative one. This, I imagine, would be especially so in the First Company, filled with seasoned warriors of long experience and great skill. A veteran's own prowess and leadership ability are exactly the reason they can be parceled out. In all likelihood, the Captain would lead a squad of his own in similar assignments, serving much as any other Veteran within his company.  Admittedly, the reason I threw it in was in an attempt to better tie the Argent Knights in with the other Sons of Dorn, as they are all meant to be a rather close-knit brotherhood. And indeed it would. Among all the successors of the Imperial Fists, if your Chapter is selected to be part of a mere dozen honoured guests, it would be a sign of great respect and dignity worthy of banners flown from the fortress-monastery's walls.  Just trying to figure how the Scouts would fit in with a Chapter that doesn't believe in the more subtle methods of warfare.This is another gross misconception about warfare that is commonly perpetrated by the sons of Dorn. Bear witness, for I am about to utter something ground-breaking. Scouts are very conventional. Lightly armed and armoured skirmishers, outriders, observers, and spotters using stealth and cunning to acquire intelligence and screen primary forces have been utilized by nearly every military force in nearly every major conflict in known real-world history and are integral parts of conventional armies to this very day. Unconventional warfare typically involves things like insurgency, psychological/information warfare, espionage, and sticky concepts like political deniability. Side Note:If you can, please code the sidebars.Haven't got a clue on how to do that at this stage. My search fu has proven relatively weak in that regard. Got you covered, my friend. BBCode 101 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3069843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 Many thanks for the BB Code tutorial thingy! Have added the sidebars and such. Apologies for possible formatting issues. Shall have to address those a bit later. Got a family trip to attend, so I couldn't address the points further. Shall address them upon our return later! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3069974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Right. Have edited the IA a bit further. Added a Recruitment section and some extra additions to the Beliefs and Combat Doctrine based on feedback from Mr. Hayn. Admittedly, I would prefer to keep the Chapter actively work to keep Maeistas at a stagnant state of technological advancement, as it would make more logical sense (It has always grated me a little when you have settings where technology is fixed around middle ages for thousands of years, for nearly no real reason). It also gives my scouts something to do when not in the field, or when they've started training, so they're constantly honing a real killer's mind... sorta. Â Probably still riddled with horrible inconsistencies and leaps of logic but hey, that's what you guys are for, right? To spot those things I don't, and then help fix 'em! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3073635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywire Posted June 3, 2012 Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 Any further C&C from folks at all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3076597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitorHayn Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Any further C&C from folks at all? Don't worry. It's not you. I think it's a busy season for people. Not a ton of IA love going around for anyone, really. But fear not, Brother, for I have answered your call! Â You have a reasonably sound article here. I would suggest two things, though. First, the Knight-Lord Sorrell sidebar is a bit long. Not a huge problem but, coupled with the fact that it's practically hugging the other one, it's a bit distracting. Â The only other thing that really stood out to me on this read through was that the Argent Knights are very...good. As in there's really nothing wrong with them. Yes, you mentioned that they're arrogant, but that's kind of a common trait for superhuman killing machines. There are several potentially interesting character flaws but you either counter them with an upside or kind of breeze over them. My personal favorite is the part about using your Scouts against the population for training and maintenance of the status quo. It's very reminiscent of how the Spartans, during the period of agoge made famous in 300, sent their child-warriors to steal and kill in the Helot villages. Anywho, I think if you fleshed it out a bit more and kept it dark and sinister, it would form a fine counterbalance to the otherwise knightly character of the Chapter and contribute to greater depth and relatability. Â Good work so far. It's been a good read. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3077315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hello, at your request I'm here. Right now, I'm rather tired and don't have much since I'm leaving tomorrow very early, thus don't expect further reply any time soon. Now... Â Origins The Argent Knights are an ancient Chapter with a long and glorious history. - This is just my quirk, but I don't like beginning like this. It comes off as too pompous and snobbish to say that you are 'awesome' Chapter right off the bat. Â Along with his training cadre, Herzog wasted no time in setting about the creation of the new Chapter - Cumbersome flow of text. Â in the Vexillum sector - Funny, but not bad in any way. :) Â As the Argent Knights came to fruition, much of the training cadre returned to the Imperial Fists, leaving Herzog behind to lead these new sons of Dorn. - Small *s*, the *sons* is not their name. Â Fighting with all the unyielding stubbornness for which their forebears are rightly famed, the Argent Knights acted as an anvil upon which the horde would blunt its teeth before allowing the hammer of Imperial allies to come to bear and slay the beast. - I would prefer it to be other way around, since I'm not fan of Chapters waging wars of attrition. Â Following their victory against Waaagh! Gitsnippa, the Argent Knights set about rebuilding their numbers before embarking fully onto the galactic stage. Before his internment in the sacred chassis of a dreadnought, Herzog led the Knights through all corners of the galaxy, putting all to the sword that would stand against the Imperium. - Hold your horses! Why are you/they/Herzog choosing the Maeistas as their homeworld, when the Chapter wents on Crusade later on? Chapter with a homeworld usually stays in the area to protect it from all threats, not wanders all around the Imperium. Â In the centuries and millennia since Sorrell's death, the Argent Knights have worked to repair their reputation with the various power groups throughout the Emperor's domain through negotiation and pacts so that they may regain their golden age. Since the dark days under Sorrell, the Chapter has been able to fully recover that which was lost. While still ostentatious, it is noted that the Argent Knights have steadily improved on their attitude into the 41st Millennium. - Wasted chance. You could turn this into really interesting quirk. For example how your Marines are still arrogant and obdurate, but thanks to various "lend-lease" deals they have to swallow their pride and work alonsige lesser troops or doing rather unglorious work. Sort of like the relationship between the nobility of old and the 'new' progressive class of merchants. Â Homeworld The surface of Maeistas contains numerous continents covered in grassy plains, dense coniferous forests and dotted with white-capped mountains in its northern hemisphere, and it is here that the people of Maeistas make their homes. - Why only northern hemisphere? Â Those scions of the houses that perform well are then taken by the Knights to the Chapter's Fortress-Monastery at the planet's north pole. - This is the place to tells us about the course of these challenges. It actually says alot about chapter, when you know what they seek and harbor in their aspirants. Â Among the noble houses, it is a point of considerable esteem for one of their sons to successfully join the Argent Knights. Further esteem is heaped upon those families who sired a true hero of the Chapter in living memory, and are treated akin to royalty in their respective lands. - I know this might come as stupid question, but... Why? Â Combat Doctrine The Knights combine this martial focus with the patience of seasoned warriors and the stubborn nature and talents of their parent Chapter in such a way that they have become rather adept at attrition fighting and siege warfare. - No, simple as that. When it comes to attrition fighting then odds are always stacked against marines. In siegecraft, the Marines simply lack all the big guns. There is reason why the Space Marines refused to fight on Vraks, unless it was more marine-esque mission. Â As the Argent Knights prefer a direct approach and disdain hit and run tactics as the province of false warriors too afraid to square up to the enemy and put them down face to face, they possess far fewer jump packs, bikes, and land speeders than the average Chapter may have access to. - One could argue that the Jump Pack gives you the ability to close with enemy really fast and hit him with sharp stick before he can retaliate. - Second, the "knight" was, in many cultures, rider. Hence the separation between the knights and men-at-arms. Â Given the Chapter's above-average number of Terminator suits, the Argent Knights possesses enough suits to fully equip the First Company, and so these honoured veterans will always take to the field in these glorious suits. - Chapter with bad relationship with other Imperial institutions is not going to have plenty of TDA, since it's incredibly rare and hard-to-get piece of equipment. Â Beliefs Following in the traditions of the Imperial Fists, and coupled with the knightly culture of Maeistas, the Argent Knights place a very high emphasis on honour whether it be on the battlefield or through the honour duels for which the sons of Dorn are famed. - This has been said several times before and I'm going to say it once more. Show is far more than just say. I have been hearing knight this and knight that, but I have yet to see something resembling knightly behaviour. (Arrogance and honour aren't necessary just traits of knights.) Â Recruitment As part of their training, the Scouts will be used against the people of Maeistas. This serves two main purposes. - Why would anyone willingly and obediently kill their own kin? Â Here, the scouts are taught the patience that they will need when they enter a warzone as true Argent Knights do through their respective missions, where stealth is key and careful movement is required to accomplish missions that brute force will not and their more experienced brethren would disdain. - But the scout then becomes a more experienced brother... So, why would he disdain such approach? - The purpose of 10th Company is to teach the scouts the Chapter's principles and ways of war. Not something what he would use now and then, after promotion, casts away as something unimportant. Â Â Cheers, NightrawenII. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252713-the-argent-knights/#findComment-3083265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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