Countering the latest codeci

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Basically, what are strategies and ways we deal with the new codex? Pure rubric spam, drowning Grey knights, Blood angels and Necrons under a hoard of rubrics? Or do we minimise our rubric squads, maxing out on terminators, dreads, havoks and other support? I've only had one game agaisnt Blood angels with my sons, and whilst I am not used to 2000pts, my usual tactics did not really work and so I'm thinking of either pure mechinised, with pred and land raider support or foot swams of multiple squads of 20 odd rubrics may be the best bet, and just aim to swamp his large units of death company and lightning claw terminators.

The armies for discusion are Grey knights, Blood Angels, Necrons, and any more codici that come out before our next one.

[Vesper]

Errr...

Obliterators, Daemon princes, plague marines ?

 

TBH, you can't counter them, because they are not playing the same game than CSM. For example, we don't have any psych nullifier. None. So, we are taking everything they can throw to us, without a chance. It's really a new game, with a new phase. And we have nothing in that phase. Our psy powers suck.

Then, the codex creep, well, if you play against any loyalist army minus BT & DA, they have all you can get, exept it's better for less points.

 

In the grim darkness of a dark future, the Imperium is fighting the Imperium.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Not all of them have psykers, and even if they take them and we have no way to stop them, so what? Yes it's unfluffy, annoying and another example of how our codex is just Loyalist marines without all the toys, but Necrons don't have any psychic defense and Dark Eldar only have an item.

Yes are psychic powers are not that good, but that does not mean we should just roll over and give up? NO, we've managed to keep kicking with this soggy, stale and just bland and boring codex for this long, so Tzeentch blast it if we just give up now.

So any ideas?

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

My advice? Don't change your list from what you want to play.

 

Let me share a little story. I went into the military in '02 and discovered 40k after my first deployment. When I was learning how to play, there was one Grey Knight player. I stomped the everliving Emperor out of him until the current codex was released around Sept 2007, and continued to dominate his various army lists for five years straight.

 

Since the new GK book, I have had the pleasure of playing against him once again during a trip back to my old gaming town. I pretty much lost the game in turn 3.

 

Let them have their glory days, and use whatever Rubric list fits All-Comers lists. If lots of Rubrics are your thing, keep them for everyone you fight. Make it work. Your goal is to trick the Necrons/GKs into thinking they have the advantage, and then to watch them turn red because they know they just got baited into a Gift of Chaos spawn on Draigo or Mephiston.

 

There are sure to be some things we will miss when the new codex drops, so I have a new gaming attitude now- Who cares? Why stress over a ruleset that will change in a couple months?

 

Death to the false emperor.

[*Furyou Miko]

That said, Necrons do have a psychic defence - the Gloom Prism - which can stop our psionic blasts in their tracks. It does nothing against Warptime though, and since the only thing in the Necron army with a 2+ save are Lords, Overlords, and a couple of special characters... Thousand Sons are the way to go.

 

AP3 bolters will scythe through Warriors, Immortals, and Lords without the Sempiternal Weave upgrade. The things to watch out for are anything with a Phase Shifter - so Wraiths and, again, some Lords - and Lychguard with Dispersion Shields. Since we lack non-AP3 weaponry, it's suicide to attempt to shoot Lychguard at close range (they'll bounce back anything AP3 or better onto a target within 6").

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Great input, Fur.

[Sorcerer Shu]

Personally against any of those armies I'd probably focus T Sons.

 

GK are expensive to field, especially with all the bells and whistles, so, like T Sons, swapping out infantry for vehicles is costly and will end badly if the opponent focuses lasguns/missiles/lances etc in the first few turns. In this case it's probably best to keep pressure on the GK by firing and moving to stay out of assault range. Obliterators and Terminators would be handy for taking care of the dread knight or two that will most likely to be there.

 

Necrons are now ridiculously cheap and could almost cheap and could almost be fielded as a swarm army. However, most only have 3+ svs at best, and those that don't are in small enough groups that, if they were focused on by a squad or two of T Sons, thier dice rolls would eventually fail them. Also, necron players have gotten alot of new toys that do really nasty things to vehicles (eg scarabs) so it would probably be best to avoid fielding to many.

 

As for BA, probably the same stratergy for GK. Both armies are very similar, although, with BA having a greater emphasis on fast attack and deep striking, avoiding cc will be more difficult, so some possesed or chosen might be needed to, at the very least, tie them up.

 

For psychic nullifiers, apply guardsmen maxim. Enough laser pointers shone in a terminators eyes will eventually make him trip and break something. Between DP's, Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcers something is bound to get through. Another option could be Havocs, long range fire power (similar to use of psychic powers, with more shots) and your opponent has wasted points on a nullifier they will barely use.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've been thinking of terminators with the mark of Tzeentch and a mix power weapons, lightning claw pairs and power/chain fists to act as a counter assault unit, I have thought of possibly a unit of bikers or raptors, the first for just zooming up with a couple of melta guns and hopefully getting his land raider (perhaps I should get a fist champ?) or raptors with Mark of tzeentch with mark of tzeentch and melta guns/plasma pistols. How have people found lesser summoned daemons? i have never used them before, and am not sure wherever Ahrimanites would use them.

I wonder how my opponents would react if I just deployed 30 odd rubrics in a 1500pt game...

I must admit, the idea of just Deploying squad after squad or rubircs and terminator support is tempting, the odd dreadnought would be nice.

At the moment I run a 5-10 havok squad with autocannons, but am thinking of getting another box of thousand sons but assembling them with heavy weapons to replace my preds in some lists, has anyone had any luck with something other then missile launchers or autocannons? For some reason a squad with 4 lascannons is tempting. EDIT: Just thought, has anyone tried a Havok squad with Heavy bolters? it could deal with hoardes, the number of shots would hurt grey knights and Necrons, and it could glance Rhino's as a last resort, possibly give them a champ with combi plasma?

Also, without the Kine shield, what is are plan B? Please don't say Your expecting the Pavoni to do any thing, they just spend all their time modeling for "Kalvin Chaos" these days, sure it brings money for the legion, but it's not that helpful on the battlefield...

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

You don't already run 27 Rubrics at 1500? ^.~

 

Also, in Apocalypse, there's a fluff story about Ahriman "helping" a Black Legion Lord out and lending his ritual skills to the battle.

 

That is, if you call waiting for everyone to die in order to summon a bunch of demons to clean up the battle on both sides "helping".

 

I have started using a unit of 9 and I find that they not only surprise the enemy, but they surprise me as well because I can't plan for them.. So I have left them out after they kept wanting to show up at turn 5 when I'm being "tabled".

 

I'd say yes, Ahriman would use demons.. Though with a bad taste in his mouth, and only as a "means to an end". I wouldn't say they would be much help against GK, but definitely against Necrons.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

How have people found fully mechinised Thousand son lists work? I'm thinking rubric, Havok and Chosen squads in Rhinos, Terminator squads in land raiders and possibly raptors and Bikers and predators or vindicators all with icons for a big 20 strong unit of lesser summoned daemons.

I'm thinking everything stays in it's transports as long as possible, only getting out when needed, the army zooms up either the center or just one flank, depending on terrain, with bikers and raptors using the tanks as mobile cover, and then unleash their cargos when close to hopefully overwhelm the enemy army at that point, (with grey knights the daemons would be used as a road bump to buy me extra time to move the rest of my army.

[the jeske]

GK are expensive to field,

no they not both the cortez and the puri build has tons of shots and units , if anything they are underpriced for their gear . and when they are like a 10 paladin +draigo set up you dont have stuff in a pure tzeench army to counter that.

 

 

Necrons are now ridiculously cheap and could almost cheap and could almost be fielded as a swarm army. However, most only have 3+ svs at best, and those that don't are in small enough groups that, if they were focused on by a squad or two of T Sons, thier dice rolls would eventually fail them. Also, necron players have gotten alot of new toys that do really nasty things to vehicles (eg scarabs) so it would probably be best to avoid fielding to many.

only most necron armies are either farms [too fast for 1ksons to counter] or pulse build and shoty armies do nothing against pulse builds [and 1ksons dont do hth] .

 

As for BA, probably the same stratergy for GK. Both armies are very similar, although, with BA having a greater emphasis on fast attack and deep striking, avoiding cc will be more difficult, so some possesed or chosen might be needed to, at the very least, tie them up.

your thinking about the DoA BA build and its not even very good to begin with . BAs are either full mecha or hybrids[with mecha dominanace] and again this bring the anti tank problems to the 1ksons army door + 1ksons cant out melee BA gunlines , so unless they do something very wrong [or play a DoA list deep strik within rapid fire range and dont get cover] the match up would be very hard.

 

 

 

How have people found fully mechinised Thousand son lists work? I'm thinking rubric, Havok and Chosen squads in Rhinos, Terminator squads in land raiders and possibly raptors and Bikers and predators or vindicators all with icons for a big 20 strong unit of lesser summoned daemons.

its 2500 pts and other armies at 2500 out shot and out assault 1ksons [offten at the same time in the case of BA/SW and GK] and the rapid fire bolters are no longer any good[not that they are good in lower point games , but in high points they are plain bad because focus firing a single unit gives nothing at 2500].

 

 

I'm thinking everything stays in it's transports as long as possible, only getting out when needed, the army zooms up either the center or just one flank, depending on terrain, with bikers and raptors using the tanks as mobile cover, and then unleash their cargos when close to hopefully overwhelm the enemy army at that point, (with grey knights the daemons would be used as a road bump to buy me extra time to move the rest of my army.

and how does that work ? it would take 2 turn minimum with no long range support [your LR and rhinos are moving at full speed to get withing charge/double tap range] there would be a good chance of getting demons before you get in to charging possition [or getting to close with bikers and having them die unsupported] . So 2 free turns of shoting from your opponent , even if you can somehow block the LoS to your whole army this would still mean 2 turns for your opponent to move and not even IG gunlines are static nowadays.

 

 

 

Or to make it short . There are no soft or hard counters to the new armies out of the chaos dex we have now , even if we include FW units in to that.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Thousand Sons are most effective within 12". Whether or not AP3 bolters will do well, you're still paying premium for them and it would be silly to stay inside rhinos

 

I'm surprised if I have any transports by turn 2.

 

I agree with jeske on most points.

 

Call me weak, but I don't play against GKs. Problem solved. I refuse to play "watch the Thousand Sons player put models away shortly after taking them out"

[Crystal Geyser]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of using an alternate Codex to CSM.

 

For example, I know many who represent their Night Lords with Codex Blood Angels. There are those who play their World Eaters as Black Templars. I know one guy who runs an all-Terminator Black Legion army led by Abaddon (Abddonwing, if you will) using Codex: Dark Angels.

 

Just food for thought.

[*Furyou Miko]

Abandonwing (because most of his troops eventually will)?

[Cpt_Reaper]

Errr...

Obliterators, Daemon princes, plague marines ?

 

TBH, you can't counter them, because they are not playing the same game than CSM

 

Disclaimer: This is not an attack on you, but a disagreement with that viewpoint.

 

The reason that a Lash-Prince, Plague Marines and oblit spam is the "only" list is due to the fact gamers want an easy win. Sure, we might have a tougher time winning, that just means we need to develop tactics to deal with armies who are newer. To say that a certain play style WILL NEVER WIN EVER is, in my opinion no better than trolling. The two best players in my group are Daemons and Tyranids. I read so many things online saying Daemons suck. The Daemon player considers Terminators a "pathetic unit" because he tears them to shreds. That's anything in Terminator armour: grey knights, wolf guard, deathwing, normals...

 

I respect that you have that viewpoint for a reason, and anything I say won't change it (try talking to me about merging DA into C:SM) but to go into a sub-forum where a "non-WAAC-sub-par" list is the "only" list and then tell the players who use it that they will never win seems a little mean.

 

p.s. I never leave home without at least one unit of Thousand Sons, and I have two.

[Vesper]

You know, I don't play lash princes and I prefer to use my Decimator over my Obliterators.

I'm not a WAAC player, really, I do really prefer fluffy games you can write on. But I do really think that if you want to have decent chances to compete with today's top tier, you have to take what is best in our codex, even if it's not fun at all.

[Brother Ambroz]

Errr...

Obliterators, Daemon princes, plague marines ?

 

TBH, you can't counter them, because they are not playing the same game than CSM

 

Disclaimer: This is not an attack on you, but a disagreement with that viewpoint.

 

The reason that a Lash-Prince, Plague Marines and oblit spam is the "only" list is due to the fact gamers want an easy win. Sure, we might have a tougher time winning, that just means we need to develop tactics to deal with armies who are newer. To say that a certain play style WILL NEVER WIN EVER is, in my opinion no better than trolling. The two best players in my group are Daemons and Tyranids. I read so many things online saying Daemons suck. The Daemon player considers Terminators a "pathetic unit" because he tears them to shreds. That's anything in Terminator armour: grey knights, wolf guard, deathwing, normals...

 

I respect that you have that viewpoint for a reason, and anything I say won't change it (try talking to me about merging DA into C:SM) but to go into a sub-forum where a "non-WAAC-sub-par" list is the "only" list and then tell the players who use it that they will never win seems a little mean.

 

p.s. I never leave home without at least one unit of Thousand Sons, and I have two.

 

The problem with this is that if one player plays a CSM list and one player plays a newer codex and they're equally skilled, the newer codex will always come out on top. I understand what you mean, this is not to say we can't win, because we can, it's just much harder.

[Crimson Hawk]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of using an alternate Codex to CSM

What alternate codex? TS are a very different beast to other Spess Marheens- if you can think of a codex, be sure to let me know!:D

[Brother Ambroz]

Crimson Hawk - Alot of people use C:GK for counts as TS because of all the psykers they have. Really the only other codex you could use and have it still seem semi fluffy.

[*Furyou Miko]

Actually, you could use the Necron book for Thousand Sons, thinking about it.

 

Spam Immortal squads (Rubriks) with Crypteks and Lords to represent your Aspiring Sorcerers with their cool toys, field Wraiths as Disc Sorcerers with Whip Coils and Transdimensional Beamers acting as time magic and warp portal magic, C'tan makes a good "magic-type" daemon prince... about the only things you'll have trouble representing are Dreadnoughts and Terminators (and Terminators could be a Royal Court with Sempiternal Weaves and Phase Shifters, trolololol, while Spyders with Prisms and Beamers would make passable Dreadnought-Sorcerers).

[shortysl]

GK are expensive to field,

no they not both the cortez and the puri build has tons of shots and units , if anything they are underpriced for their gear . and when they are like a 10 paladin +draigo set up you dont have stuff in a pure tzeench army to counter that.

 

Er, yes they are expensive. Maybe not as expensive as some people would like but that's by the by. Purifier set-ups can be countered by Rubric Marines, just like any Power Armoured force can; I know first hand just how nasty those AP3 Bolters are. Paladin heavy lists are always going to be difficult to counter, that's kind of the point, but to be fair it's not a world away from facing a pure Deathwing army; two wounds on each model but half the models. Of course the high initiative from halberds is going to make combat difficult (again, kind of the point) but with every Rubric Marine having a 4+ invulnerable save, they're still better off than most in a straight up fight against Paladins.

[Ethrion]

Actually, you could use the Necron book for Thousand Sons, thinking about it.

 

Spam Immortal squads (Rubriks) with Crypteks and Lords to represent your Aspiring Sorcerers with their cool toys, field Wraiths as Disc Sorcerers with Whip Coils and Transdimensional Beamers acting as time magic and warp portal magic, C'tan makes a good "magic-type" daemon prince... about the only things you'll have trouble representing are Dreadnoughts and Terminators (and Terminators could be a Royal Court with Sempiternal Weaves and Phase Shifters, trolololol, while Spyders with Prisms and Beamers would make passable Dreadnought-Sorcerers).

Interesting! One might even paint up monoliths in silver so that they could be the pyramids of Tizca...

 

Sort of like this... silver monoliths

[*Furyou Miko]

Monolith rules work for the tower, but I wouldn't use the model. >>

 

Really, Halberds don't make a damn bit of difference against Thousand Sons. In fact, if your enemy is fielding Halberds you should be grateful since it means they aren't getting extra attacks or whatever.