They Can Always Come Back

[Dammeron]

As any reader of speculative fiction knows, it is always, always, always possible to concoct means by which significantly DEAD characters can be resurrected. One need only scan over the convoluted, tumescent histories of most comic book super heroes/super villains to find practically every trick, twist and justification laid bare (often over and over over again...I'm looking at you, Norman Osborn). This is, of course, not simply confined to comic books; most extended works of fantasy, regardless of medium, involve consistent deaths and resurrections, often of key characters or protagonists. The Doctor of Doctor Who fame is a prime example of how this inevitability was acknowledged early on and worked directly into the mythology as a means of both continuing the franchise and adding a nice bit of audience tension (for those not in the know, The Doctor is an alien known as a Timelord, who does not die when his biology is impared, rather reformatting himself into a different body -and actor- whenever it's convenient).

 

How does this apply to 40K? Well, 40K is a prime example of a similar kind of universe; one where hairy-scary science fiction and weirdy beardy metaphysics are practically synonymous. As such, there are any number of means by which "dead" characters, even those whose deaths are established and enshrined as part of the LORE, can return in one way, shape or form (whether they SHOULD come back is another matter. For example, though I can conceive of a number of ways in which it is perfectly plausible, it would be quite galling to his legion and his history if Night Haunter returned. His suicide-by-assassin was his crowning achievment; the moment of vindication he had sought all his damned existence. Resurrecting him would urinate all over that somewhat).

 

As with Doctor Who, the lore itself contains established means by which this might be achieved, the most pertinent of which is the Warp. When sentient creatures die in the 40K universe, their essences are sucked into the Warp, where they are either rent apart and sucked into the vortices of the Chaos Powers, or float around to become bits and pieces of other Warp entities, most of which are mindless scraps of predatory nothing. However, we already know thanks to the likes of the Craftworld Eldar and their Infinity Circuit, and the Dark Eldar Haemonculi and their more scientifically based immortality, that it is possible not only to circumnavigate this process, but also that said essence can be bound to the physical universe and used to fuel various different degrees of resurrection. Even given the dynamic of the Warp itself, there are instances where entities are so utterly themselves, so consummate and composed that they do not wither or disperse in the Warp, but coalesce as new intelligences, or as reflections of what they were in life (becoming daemons, angels, spirits or whatever terminology you choose). It is conceivable, given the infinity of possibility and potential the Warp manifests, for an intelligence to sustain itself to some greater or lesser degree, and maybe even find a means of re-birthing itself into the material universe in new flesh. This has already happened in the Warhammer FB world in the form of Sigmar Heldenhammer, who has been reborn any number of times, and was once a basis of hope in the 40K universe too in the form of abandoned fluff known as The Sensei and the Starchild. In the more archaic tomes of 40K lore, it was established that the Emperor's essence had long since departed his physical body, and was hurtling through the Warp trying to avoid devourment by the Gods of Chaos. Individuals in the material universe who were, unbeknownst to themselves, descendents of one of the many bloodlines he sired, could become imbued with a fraction of this essence, becoming Sensei; incredibly enlightened, strong, beautiful human beings whose purpose was to pave the way for his return as the Starchild.

 

Of course, this bit of fluff has been since abandoned, but it does provide demonstration of how the Warp can potentially provide a means of resurrection for entities sufficiently composed and knowledgable in its ways. This is also a manner in which I imagine it would be possible for profoundly dead creatures such as the aforementioned Night Haunter to return (again, not that it SHOULD be done; only that there are various means by which one can stretch and strain the constraints of the background to make it so). Given his status as a primarch and evident psychic potential, Night Haunter probably exercised quite a profound shadow in the Warp. Also given that he consistently refuted service to the Chaos Powers, he would likely exist independent of them to a certain degree. It's not entirely outside of the bounds of possibility that there is a shrieking, shadowy thing in the Warp right now, that preys on the souls of mortals and daemons alike, eclipsing them into its torment; a shade of pure self loathing and atavistic violence...also, given how much the Night Lords seem to revere their lunatic Father and his ways, this constant provision of psychic fodder may in fact be enough to sustain such an entity's integrity within the Warp. If that entity did indeed manage to somehow manifest materially again, it would likely be as a daemonic shadow of the Night Haunter, representing all of his most monstrous and inhuman traits.

 

There are myriad potentials in a universe whose rules and restrictions are largely determined by whoever happens to hold the pens at the time. From cloning, to the "THEY WERE NEVER REALLY DEAD!!!" gambit (RE: Alpharius), there are always, always, ALWAYS means and measures of resurrection. The real question is: should it happen? Do we really want to see Horus and the Emperor duking it out again at the turn of the 41st Millennium? Or do we want the stakes to change, the story to progress, and the sacrifices of old expressed in more mythologically satisfying form through their various descendents?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I've thought about this concept quite a lot, and it's an interesting concept. It's important to note, however, that due to how the Warp works, any reviving soul isn't necessarily going to be the same as the person who died. Remember, the Warp is coloured by peoples perceptions of it, so while it could be possible for a soul to reincarnate, it wouldn't entirely be the exact same soul, but that soul changed to resemble how people perceived that person.

 

Think of the Alpha/Epsilon in Red vs Blue. Technically, it's the reincarnation of the person who's memory it is, but it isn't just that persons memories, it's the memories of other people too. As such, it's largely the same person, but altered and changed where the memories of others conflict and alter it. Another example of this, more directly relevant to 40k, is the Emperor. On one hand, the God-Emperor is the soul of the Emperor, but it's also not, as its personality has been entirely changed by 10,000 years of worship by the Imperium. The Emperor was a staunch atheist, whereas the God-Emperor embraces its divinity and acts like the god it is. As such, if the Emperor was ever reincarnated "now", even though it would be the Emperor who was reincarnated, he'd act in ways entirely different than he did in life. It'd be far more in accordance with how he's viewed across the Imperium. In fact, you might have even noticed that I use the term "him" when referring to the Emperor in life, but "it" for the God-Emperor, and any possible reincarnation.

 

A less important person might be able to escape this radical shift in personality change, more along the lines of Alpha/Epsilon, but they're also less likely to stay coherent in the Warp. Ironically, it's that fame and public perception that would twist and distort the soul that would also give them greater coherence, essentially making them a minor daemon in the Warp, a daemon of their personality. The more people feel strongly about them, the stronger it is, and the more coherent it is, but conversely, the more people there are, the more differing images there are that define how that soul is interpreted in the Warp, and distort who they actually were.

[Xin Ceithan]

You are certainly making a good point here. Given all this "End Times" feeling 40 k has always strived for there is no point in some of the dead characters not returning. the legends of nearly all of the lost -loyalist- primarchs speak of their return. The original smurf codex stated that Uebersmurf`s wounds were healing inside a stasis field after all ( Or is that abandoned fluff too?)

On one point it would surely be interesting to see the reactions of those beings to the Imperium they left behind ( as in the atheist Imperial truth vs. the Imperial faith ). On the other point -should it be done?

 

Certainly not for the Night Haunter in my opinion. The whole reverence the XIII has for their father is mostly hype in my opinion. And do remember that we have basically only Talos view on that. ADB made some good points on the twisted view the Night Lords -especially Talos- have about themselves and their father somewhere else on the forum. from a dramatic/ storytelling view bringing the night Haunter back would severly damage the whole point of his tragic life and death. After all, he ALLOWED himself to be killed - and to prove his point of view.

Bringing him back from that would probably be the ultimate punishment ( hmmm, that has fickle chaos powers written all over it ) and would certainly not improve his shattered mindset. I for one wouldn´t want to be around a resurrected Kurze. He`d be pretty pissed at everybody....

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, Guilleman certainly won't be coming back, as he's literally seconds away from death outside the stasis field, and the only fluff saying he's healing is the mention that some of the pilgrims who walk past his body claim that his wounds are healing, a claim that they cannot make with any authority, as none of them would have been able to walk past twice, and if the wounds were healing, I assume the Ultramarines would have noticed by now.

[Kol Saresk]

We also have Zso Sahaal's view of the Night Haunter to go on. And the impression that I got is that he worshipped him, more than Talos. His biggest problem was the mindset of "I want to make God(Night Haunter) happy and I know he would want me to be happy so what makes me happy will make him happy so now I'm going to have unconfirmed memories of him telling me to rule after his death and I need this shiny trinket to do it." All the faith of a zealous fanatic turned inward and shaped by greed.

 

To be honest, the way Dammeron describes Night Haunter's possible form in the warp, he sounds a lot like Malal. But then, he always did.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Intriguing point raised here, I must say. (I should state that I think Night Haunter should stay D-E-A-D.)

 

There is a game-mechanic take on this idea in the Sisters of Battle Codex WD ran a little while back: Saint Celestine. She was 'killed' in a huge, titanic, hive-city-levelling explosion of enormous killyness -- but there was no physical trace left. Convenient, eh? And the WD Codex has a bit of fluff about how Celestine pops up to help out Sororitas in dire straits before vanishing again.

 

Now, this sounds like the Legion of the Damned all over again (even if Celestine is easier on the eye), but it's something to ponder.

[Kol Saresk]

Oh yeah, I agree he should stay dead too. Right now, the conflicting reports of who he was, adds a depth of character to himself and the Night Lords. If he comes back, only one of those views will be proven true. It would kill the little fanboy that lives deep within my cold, black, frozen, shriveled soul. Wait, I don't have one so disregard that statement.

[Xin Ceithan]

Forgot about Sahaal. Shame on me.

I agree that those conflicting reports make the Night Haunter really more interesting.

 

From a gaming perspective I remember when White Wolf ended their original World of Darkness RPG and published something as close to canon on the original ancient, mythological founders of their vampire clans.

It surely takes the mystery away and you can never please everybody anybody. And imagine every little tabletop army out there with their own primarchs and people comparing stats on them. I don`t want to go there.

[Trevak Dal]

I guess they could, but until they jump that shark-said guys are worm food, and entirely pointless to the current story.

 

The emperor only continues to be relevant because he is the basis for the Imperium's navigation.

 

The dead primarchs (indeed the primarchs in general) serve no purpose except as far historical figures insofar as their impact on the day-to-day functions of the universe-Daemon Primarchs not withstanding, though general fluff indicates that most except Angron just kind of hang out doing nothing (except Mortarion got a tattoo on his heart one from one righteously pissed Grey Knight).

 

I mean, 500 years from now is anybody going to care who George Washington was except for Ancient History/Military History students, let alone 10,000 years.

 

It's sort of the opinion I took on the whole "Forerunner" series in the Halo books: they don't matter in the context of the UNSC/Covenant war or the immediate aftermath, they're not like the Ancients from the Stargate universe who occasionally show up and do interesting things-they left their toys after collectively washing their mouths out with buckshot so I didn't feel a need to go and read the books when Wikipedia sorts all the important stuff out and "bottom lines it" for free and in a few minutes.