Would you like our Wolves to get the Stormtalon?

[Logan230]

i'm with brother captain on this one, a gunship just doesn't fit with the astartes of 40k since these things got forbidden for them after the heresy. sure our transports may pack a lot of fire power but a dedicated gunship? that's outright going against the high lords of terra's wishes and is a thing even grimnar would hesitate about!

 

Where is it forbidden that they are not allowed a gunship hendrik? I have never seen this. Source?

 

*Waits for Valerian to show...*

[hendrik]

i believe part of it is in the battlefleet gothic rulesbooks (the information about the imperial navy). there might be some information aswell in te big 4th edition rulebook. in general it's more about the imperial navy but indeed maybe valerian might be able to give us a direct quote (since i'm off drinking with some friends! ^_^ )

[Bikeninja]

Maybe you guys can help but I remember a in one of the black library books, our awesome space wolves using something called a StormCrow. Similar capabilities but I thought is was an alternate Storm Raven and not Storm Talon.

 

I for one do not care about the silly codex. Apoc allows for all of this and I will have a couple for my Apoc army.

[Akela]

My initial reaction to the exclusion from the Stormtalon was colored by how ugly and disproportionate it was. There are photoshop pictures showing what it would look like with that stupid assault cannon removed and with the cannons tucked up under. It's amazing how much of a difference that makes...and I'm back to envy : )

 

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/c9xf-1d-642e.jpg

[Valerian]

The army I want to emulate is an almost Expeditionary force, relying heavily on Scout elements followed up by fast, yet hard hitting kit (thank you Forge World for the Storm Eagle :D).

 

Every Marine force should be developed as an expeditionary one; they go where needed within the galaxy to defeat threats to the Imperium and humanity. No Chapter just sits around there home base waiting for an enemy or alien to come to them. Certainly, home worlds have been attacked, and a few destroyed (Rynn's World, IIRC), but this is by far the exception than the norm. In more than 10,000 years the Space Wolves have only had to defend Fenris twice, that we are aware of. They are almost always sailing the stars, taking the fight to the enemies of mankind (and thus must be organized, equipped, trained, and sustained to do so.

 

i believe part of it is in the battlefleet gothic rulesbooks (the information about the imperial navy). there might be some information aswell in te big 4th edition rulebook. in general it's more about the imperial navy but indeed maybe valerian might be able to give us a direct quote (since i'm off drinking with some friends! :lol: )

 

I'm currently away from home on vacation, and don't have access to my usual library of sources. As I recall, however, only the Imperial Guard is really inter-dependent with the Imperial Navy. The Guard can generate a crap ton of combat power, but relies on the Navy to move and support it. Consolidating the power of both could put whole sectors at risk, should the leader go rogue. For the Adeptus Astartes, this risk was addressed long ago, with the dissolution of the Legions, and formation of much more manageable Chapters. A rogue Chapter is still significant, but can be dealt with. For the most part, however, the background material very much indicates that the Adeptus Astartes stands apart within the Imperium; they choose when and how they'll fight, and against whom. They are free to accept or reject requests for assistance according to the wisdom and strategy of each individual Chapter Master. They are given a mandate: protect humanity and preserve the Imperium, and are free to operate as broadly as they wish within those requirements. It is necessary, therefore, that each Chapter be as self-sufficient as possible. They can't be chained to the structures of other agencies or bureaucracies to operate and wage war. They have their own forges, fleets, transports, medical support, communications, etc., etc. The only aspect of war-fighting that they can't provide for themselves is found in their reliance on the Navigator houses. Space Wolves take this independence a step further, where not just the Chapter, but each Great Company is a fully self-sufficient force.

 

If you accept the above as true and accurate, then there is no fluff-limitation to justify preventing a given Chapter from maintaining and using any weapon system, vehicle, or piece of equipment that provides that Chapter Master with a required capability. If Dante, Marneus, or Logan feel that they should have an air-and-space "gunship" escort vehicle that can protect units that are vulnerable while deploying from the orbiting fleet to a planetside battlefield, and they have the technology (STC) to create, maintain, and support it, then by the Emperor, they should have it, and nobody from the Adeptus Terra, or any other arm of the Imperium, should or would try to prevent them from having it.

 

Best regards,

 

V

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

The only thing that the Wolves are going to get that remotely resembles the insanity of 2nd edition are Drop Pods. While I do not agree or support this kind of knee jerk reaction it has remained in place for a decade and will probably not change any time soon, which means NO Storm/Raven/Talon/Bird/Chicken/Turkey/Eagle/Falcon/Avian Life Form in the reasonably near future.

 

What sucks even worse is the good work Forgeworld is putting out isn't legal with plain ol' 40k.

[Hfran Morkai]

The army I want to emulate is an almost Expeditionary force, relying heavily on Scout elements followed up by fast, yet hard hitting kit (thank you Forge World for the Storm Eagle :)).

 

Every Marine force should be developed as an expeditionary one; they go where needed within the galaxy to defeat threats to the Imperium and humanity. No Chapter just sits around there home base waiting for an enemy or alien to come to them. Certainly, home worlds have been attacked, and a few destroyed (Rynn's World, IIRC), but this is by far the exception than the norm. In more than 10,000 years the Space Wolves have only had to defend Fenris twice, that we are aware of. They are almost always sailing the stars, taking the fight to the enemies of mankind (and thus must be organized, equipped, trained, and sustained to do so.

 

Best regards,

 

V

 

I don't think I explained my Great Company enough.

 

Hfran Morkai's company existed during the Horus Heresy, and primarily functioned in a reconnaissance role, gifted with the nimbler ships of the Sixth and acting as Russ' ravens (I once read a paper about how ravens can be observed "leading" wolf packs to carrion, hence Hfran). Whilst lacking much heavy armour themselves Morkai's company could act as pathfinders for the rest of the Rout should the mission be critical enough to warrant multiple Great Companies.

[Canis Majoris]

I asked my local store about this one and they said as an in-store rule they allow space marine flyers to be used in store battles by any space marine chapter!.

 

So now i know that i think i will be buying a stormraven to finally get ragnar and his wolfguard into combat, and a stormtalon to escort the scouts using their behind enemy lines rule :P

[Valerian]

I asked my local store about this one and they said as an in-store rule they allow space marine flyers to be used in store battles by any space marine chapter!.

 

So now i know that i think i will be buying a stormraven to finally get ragnar and his wolfguard into combat, and a stormtalon to escort the scouts using their behind enemy lines rule :)

 

Lucky you; sounds like a solid plan. Let us know how it works out, if you manage to get any games in like this.

 

V

[Wolfsbane]

The army I want to emulate is an almost Expeditionary force, relying heavily on Scout elements followed up by fast, yet hard hitting kit (thank you Forge World for the Storm Eagle :P).

 

Every Marine force should be developed as an expeditionary one; they go where needed within the galaxy to defeat threats to the Imperium and humanity. No Chapter just sits around there home base waiting for an enemy or alien to come to them. Certainly, home worlds have been attacked, and a few destroyed (Rynn's World, IIRC), but this is by far the exception than the norm. In more than 10,000 years the Space Wolves have only had to defend Fenris twice, that we are aware of. They are almost always sailing the stars, taking the fight to the enemies of mankind (and thus must be organized, equipped, trained, and sustained to do so.

 

i believe part of it is in the battlefleet gothic rulesbooks (the information about the imperial navy). there might be some information aswell in te big 4th edition rulebook. in general it's more about the imperial navy but indeed maybe valerian might be able to give us a direct quote (since i'm off drinking with some friends! :P )

 

I'm currently away from home on vacation, and don't have access to my usual library of sources. As I recall, however, only the Imperial Guard is really inter-dependent with the Imperial Navy. The Guard can generate a crap ton of combat power, but relies on the Navy to move and support it. Consolidating the power of both could put whole sectors at risk, should the leader go rogue. For the Adeptus Astartes, this risk was addressed long ago, with the dissolution of the Legions, and formation of much more manageable Chapters. A rogue Chapter is still significant, but can be dealt with. For the most part, however, the background material very much indicates that the Adeptus Astartes stands apart within the Imperium; they choose when and how they'll fight, and against whom. They are free to accept or reject requests for assistance according to the wisdom and strategy of each individual Chapter Master. They are given a mandate: protect humanity and preserve the Imperium, and are free to operate as broadly as they wish within those requirements. It is necessary, therefore, that each Chapter be as self-sufficient as possible. They can't be chained to the structures of other agencies or bureaucracies to operate and wage war. They have their own forges, fleets, transports, medical support, communications, etc., etc. The only aspect of war-fighting that they can't provide for themselves is found in their reliance on the Navigator houses. Space Wolves take this independence a step further, where not just the Chapter, but each Great Company is a fully self-sufficient force.

 

If you accept the above as true and accurate, then there is no fluff-limitation to justify preventing a given Chapter from maintaining and using any weapon system, vehicle, or piece of equipment that provides that Chapter Master with a required capability. If Dante, Marneus, or Logan feel that they should have an air-and-space "gunship" escort vehicle that can protect units that are vulnerable while deploying from the orbiting fleet to a planetside battlefield, and they have the technology (STC) to create, maintain, and support it, then by the Emperor, they should have it, and nobody from the Adeptus Terra, or any other arm of the Imperium, should or would try to prevent them from having it.

 

Best regards,

 

V

 

 

Thank you for this post V. I cannot agree more.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

There is no point in getting the Stormtalon because we and even the Vanillas already have the Land Speeder Tempest doing exactly the same job (and is even better looking).

[Grey Mage]

I dont want the stormtalon. I dont see the need- my typhoons work just fine, for cheaper.

[Bat33.1]

What sucks even worse is the good work Forgeworld is putting out isn't legal with plain ol' 40k.

 

This is debatable now due to the official 40K stamps in the last few Imperial Armour Books, 9,10 and 11 stating that they are legal for any game of 40K. The Storm Eagle is also listed in FW's rules as available in Codex Space Wolves. Tourneys well they are different but in truth GW needs to clear this up once and for all when 6th finally arrives.

[Akela]

for now, the Typhoon is probably a better buy. My feeling is that, if the Stormtalon is FAQ'd into a flyer, then flyers will handle distinctly differently than skimmers like landspeeders, so the comparison won't be as apt. For the sake of Vanilla Marines, I hope that means it will get the ability to Deep Strike, b/c it would seem silly that a landspeeder could deep strike and not an enlosed, armor 11 VTOL w/ ceramite plating

[Grey Mage]

What sucks even worse is the good work Forgeworld is putting out isn't legal with plain ol' 40k.

 

This is debatable now due to the official 40K stamps in the last few Imperial Armour Books, 9,10 and 11 stating that they are legal for any game of 40K. The Storm Eagle is also listed in FW's rules as available in Codex Space Wolves. Tourneys well they are different but in truth GW needs to clear this up once and for all when 6th finally arrives.

Plain and simple: FW isnt 40k legal, no matter what the stamp on it says. Why? Because GW has never once said so.

 

Can you use it with your mates? Sure, if they agree. You can also play planetstrike with them, or apocalypse, or 400pts. That doesnt mean its the assumed standard game anywhere.

 

Should they be legal? Probly not. FW is worse about updating its rules than regular GW up until recently, and its remains to be seen if that trend will continue.

 

As for this aircraft, the stormtalon, Im really interested to see what viable roll it will fill in C:SM. It uses a valuable slot, and takes up the same points as a decently outfitted predator or vindicator... its faster, but more fragile and I dont think its firepower is superior. Perhaps in an all biker army it would really shine... but Im not yet convinced.

[Xeenos]

I think i like the sound of the heavy bolter Typhoon more then an assault cannon and Typhoon. 24" range mixed with 48" is just.. eh.. The thing where it can opt to stand still and get +1 BS sounds fun with its 48" or 60" weapon systems, but id much rather upgrade the assault cannon and keep the bolters, or better, upgrade both for a super missile platform.. Mmmm.. 150 or so for two typhoons with bs 5 might be worth it.

 

Though ive now had the idea of making my speeders robotic, something like survo skulls with weapon systems.. mm.. floating wolf skull with missile racks in its mouth?

[Valerian]

As for this aircraft, the stormtalon, Im really interested to see what viable roll it will fill in C:SM. It uses a valuable slot, and takes up the same points as a decently outfitted predator or vindicator... its faster, but more fragile and I dont think its firepower is superior. Perhaps in an all biker army it would really shine... but Im not yet convinced.

 

However, I would rather have the option and choose not to use it (like with TWC, for example), than not have the option at all. There is no legitimate reason to deny it to us, unless they plan on giving the Wolves something unique in the near future, which I just can't imagine will happen. Since the use of Stormeagles, as FW products, will continue to be debatable, it would be nice to have GW actually sanction our use of some of these new aircraft.

 

V

[hendrik]

found the fluff i was talking about!

During the Great Crusade Space Marine vessels served alongside other Imperial forces as combined battlefleets.5 In the wake of the Horus Heresy however, when Roboute Guilliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing the Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking point. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine conflic that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with.

Battlefleet Gothic Resources: Imperial Fleets p22

 

seems it was only about spaceships and not small gunships

[vanguardwolf]

However, I would rather have the option and choose not to use it (like with TWC, for example), than not have the option at all. There is no legitimate reason to deny it to us, unless they plan on giving the Wolves something unique in the near future, which I just can't imagine will happen. Since the use of Stormeagles, as FW products, will continue to be debatable, it would be nice to have GW actually sanction our use of some of these new aircraft.

 

V

 

i was just coming to post that.:

i was at my local GW store. and was drooling on the stormtalon. and told the manager mij disgrunt

that is C:SM only, he said that i should not worry about that and that were is more to come.

i believe him becouse he also gave me the hint about the fenrisan wolves coming up 3 weeks before the

pre orders.

 

so ist just a waiting game for now.

for the one's who like to speculate i have opend a other topic to keep this one clean.

[Grey Mage]

As for this aircraft, the stormtalon, Im really interested to see what viable roll it will fill in C:SM. It uses a valuable slot, and takes up the same points as a decently outfitted predator or vindicator... its faster, but more fragile and I dont think its firepower is superior. Perhaps in an all biker army it would really shine... but Im not yet convinced.

 

However, I would rather have the option and choose not to use it (like with TWC, for example), than not have the option at all. There is no legitimate reason to deny it to us, unless they plan on giving the Wolves something unique in the near future, which I just can't imagine will happen. Since the use of Stormeagles, as FW products, will continue to be debatable, it would be nice to have GW actually sanction our use of some of these new aircraft.

 

V

Well and thats fair enough. Though between us Id rather have an official sanction on the stormeagle, as I like both the model and the rules for it much better.

 

Heck, I might leave my DPs at home for the first time in a year and half if they did that- Id be busy working to buy the eagles.

[Kassill]

Yes, more Storm Eagles! :(

[Valerian]

As for this aircraft, the stormtalon, Im really interested to see what viable roll it will fill in C:SM. It uses a valuable slot, and takes up the same points as a decently outfitted predator or vindicator... its faster, but more fragile and I dont think its firepower is superior. Perhaps in an all biker army it would really shine... but Im not yet convinced.

 

However, I would rather have the option and choose not to use it (like with TWC, for example), than not have the option at all. There is no legitimate reason to deny it to us, unless they plan on giving the Wolves something unique in the near future, which I just can't imagine will happen. Since the use of Stormeagles, as FW products, will continue to be debatable, it would be nice to have GW actually sanction our use of some of these new aircraft.

 

V

Well and thats fair enough. Though between us Id rather have an official sanction on the stormeagle, as I like both the model and the rules for it much better.

 

Heck, I might leave my DPs at home for the first time in a year and half if they did that- Id be busy working to buy the eagles.

 

I'd get a couple for sure if they were: a) officially sanctioned, b) much cheaper, and c) plastic.

 

V

[Warhead01]

I was mostly asleep then I made my prior post.

[Bat33.1]

I'd get a couple for sure if they were: a) officially sanctioned, :) much cheaper, and c) plastic.

 

V

 

With the Stormraven now rising to £50 the Storm Eagle price looks a little more palatable considering the amount of extra resin bits in the kit and the fact it looks a whole lot better to my eyes. The only possible downside will be if FW bumps up their own prices to reflect GW's new rise :D