Knights Viridian

[Valkyrion]

Okay, first up a word on the name - it sucks. And viridian won't be the colour they are, but knights Cal Poly Pomona sounds even worse, so any name suggestions are more than welcome.

 

 

 

Origins:

The Knights Viridian were founded in M36 and were part of one of many foundings to take place during that millennium, though their precise date of creation is unclear.

Created from the direct lineage of the Dark Angels, the Knights Viridian, along with half a dozen other chapters created during the same founding, immediately embarked upon a crusade into the hitherto unknown region of space known as the Perseus Drift.

 

For a hundred years the seven chapters cleansed the region of lesser alien races, Eldar exodite worlds and ork infestations, allowing the Imperium to expand its borders and colonise new worlds.

The chapters founded from the stock of Dorn, Guilliman and Corax often worked side by side and their progress far outstripped that of the Knights Viridian who themselves kept their own counsel, refusing to take to the field of battle with another chapter.

 

Meticulous in the extreme, the Knights Viridian eschewed orbital bombardments unless absolutely necessary, preferring instead to overwhelm their enemies eye to eye. Only then, they believed, could the cleansing of the planet be total, whilst the fledging chapter gained invaluable combat experience with bolter and blade rather than continent sized warheads.

Implacable in the advance and resolute in defence, the chapter evidently followed their forbears ideals on the art of war, though the sacking of the alien citadel of Varesh showed a discipline in siege warfare which would make even an Imperial Fist proud.

 

At the completion of the campaign each chapter was given the chance to adopt a world for their own though only two chapters chose to do so. The Sable Guard, sons of Rogal Dorn, took the world of Sturngrad and the Knights Viridian took the world of Calfax.

 

Homeworld:

Calfax is, by Imperial definition, a ‘feral’ world, meaning its peoples are primitive and ignorant to the wider imperium, though this was not always the case. Located at the very edge of Segmentum Tempestus, Calfax is the smallest world of a four planet system, and millennia ago would have been considered a civilised world, their peoples regressing through generations of isolation. Nomadic tribes make their homes in the planets ruined cities as equally as they do in the rainforests or arctic tundra.

 

Most impressive of all is a massive labyrinthine complex of obvious imperial design that covers most of planet, untouched in thousands of years. The reason for its construction has long been forgotten, though it is hypothesised that the equatorial regions were often subjected to extreme temperature or weather changes that have long since ceased to effect the planet.

The climate of the planet is now similar to Terra of old with arctic poles, massive oceans, scalding deserts and deadly rainforests and it is upon the inhospitable Caldera Desert that the Knights Viridian built their primary outpost. Eschewing a traditional fortress monastery, the chapter instead utilised the existing labyrinth, building further outposts on the planets surface.

 

 

The Defence of Forgeworld Ordana:

Although barely a footnote in annals of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the thousand year siege of Ordana saw the entire Knights Viridian chapter fight alongside the Skitarii and Titan Legions of Ordana for over two thirds of the conflict.

Though the war was eventually won by retrofitting Banehammer battle tanks with Magma Cannons to destroy the enemy Titans, the Knights Viridian were instrumental in throwing back the millions of rogue Skitarii, tech priests and other conscripted soldiers, whilst their boarding actions against the enemy fleet helped stymie the flow of renegade heavy armour deployment.

 

Two squads of Terminators from the Order of the Broken Sword, the Knights Viridian 1st Company, even succeeded in bringing down the renegade Warlord Titan Hellbane in a valiant action that saw all ten veterans consumed by the titan’s cataclysmic explosion. It was this act more than any other that earned the respect of the Forgeworld and weapons of ancient design were slowly released to the chapter.

 

Graviton Guns, Rapier Laser batteries, and bolter variants were all brought into service whilst the chapters Techmarines worked alongside the Techpriests to modify Predator tanks to be fitted with Conversion Beamers.

The attrition rate of the Knights Viridian was such that by the end of their seven-hundred year deployment not a single space marine involved in the first engagement remained alive, two Chapter Masters had died and it was only through the judicious use of company rotation that the chapter could survive at all.

In all, over a thousand battle brothers of the Knights Viridian died during the siege, more than a chapters worth, though two companies were always held back from direct involvement and at the end of the campaign the chapter stood at a wounded, but healthy, three hundred and fifty active battle brothers.

 

The Fallen of Hasandor:

Barely a century after the defence at Forgeworld Ordana, the Knights Viridian responded in chapter strength, around five hundred battle brothers, to a distress call from the Sable Guard 3rd Company.

A single Fallen had assumed command over the world of Hasandor, a civilised world on the borders of Segmentum Tempestus and Ultima. The Fallen had, over the centuries, spread false claims of attacks by the Orks on nearby planets and had convinced the planetary governor that he was sent to protect them and to hand control over the planetary defences to him. Hasandor had turned into a fortress, and the three million strong PDF were his to command.

It was chance that brought the Sable Guard to Hasandor as they intercepted a transmission from a passenger ship asking for permission to deposit half a million refugees on a nearby planet. When asked what they running from, the ship master replied that the Orks were on their way to Hasandor and these people had bought passage from the surface.

Attempts to contact Hasandor had failed and believing an attack by the orks was imminent, the Sable Guard 3rd Company headed straight for Hasandor.

 

Within three days of making planetfall, the 88 members of the 3rd Company had been reduced by half and the distress call, describing possible renegade space marine involvement, was received by the Knights Viridian.

Within weeks, the entire Knights Viridian chapter arrived at Hasandor and without preamble descended to the planets surface. Shunning contact with the survivors of the Sable Guard, the Knights threw themselves against the fortress walls, inflicting heavy casualties on the PDF but without gaining ground.

With the Ravenwing impotent against the fortress walls, and the Deathwing unable to get secure teleport locks within, it fell to the Captain Gaias of the 3rd Company to break the fortress. Marshalling the 4th and 5th Companies, he ordered a week long bombardment from Thunderfire Cannons, Conversion Beamers and Rapiers, as the chapter’s modest contingent of Assault Rams and Stormeagles deployed assault squads on the battlement walls, supported by withering fire from the Thunderhawk Gunships.

 

With the close ranged defences of the battlement walls neutralised, three squadrons of Vindicators, headed by a Land Raider Achilles and supported by over a dozen Dreadnoughts breached the fortress walls. Within minutes the skilled riders of the Ravenwing were chicaning through the rubble, their teleport homers summoning the Deathwing from orbit.

Barely an hour later, the Deathwing emerged from the ruined fortress with their prize and immediately withdrew to orbit.

Though the withdrawal of the battle companies took considerably longer, the chapter immediately ceased their attack on the fortress just as the remnants of the Sable Guard poured through the ruins to avenge their fallen. Suddenly unsupported, the Sable Guard died to a man, shouting screams of betrayal.

The Knights Viridian departed without a word. The rest of the Sable Guard arrived in system weeks later and obliterated Hasandor from orbit, but the Sable Guard placed the deaths of the 3rd Company squarely on the shoulders of the Knights Viridian.

 

Organisation:

The organisation of the Knights Viridian is unique even amongst their fellow Unforgiven chapters inasmuch as the chapters three battle companies are dedicated Siege assault companies.

This deviation from the codex norm was gradual, rather than deliberate, as a result of the actions at Hasandor when the three companies were merged into a single entity.

 

Though the companies are now once again separate entities, the Captain of the 3rd is known as the Siege Master and the Captains of the 4th and 5th answer directly to him, making the Siege Master the most powerful individual in the chapter, save for the Grand Master himself.

Although officially the Master of the Armoury, the Master of the Forge is permanently seconded to the 3rd Company, charged with the maintenance of the Chapters most venerated armour.

 

The chapters Deathwing and Ravenwing companies are identical to those of the other Unforgiven chapters, although each company is considered to be at full strength if it numbers fifty, rather than one hundred battle brothers.

Companies six through nine are the chapters reserve companies and broadly follow standard Codex practices, though Company six is in fact identical to other chapters Battle Companies.

 

The 10th Company, however, is very different from the norm. Aside from containing Scouts, the 10th also maintain several squads of Nightwing, fully fledged battle brothers, who fight alongside the scouts. The company itself specialises in battlefield disruption and enemy isolation, destroying their foes piecemeal. The Nightwing stand apart from their brothers, each taking a vow of silence and isolation except when on combat duty and even then talking only to other Nightwing. Their armour is painted a midnight blue, covered with black robes, with Chapter and squad markings removed. Should another Space Marine ever see a Nightwing without their helmet they would see the chapter symbol branded into their forehead, a sign of penance for sins known only to the Grand Master of the Chapter.

 

The company markings are codex compliant, with each company bearing shoulder trims in the appropriate colour, whilst the sergeants and veterans each paint their helmets and shoulder pads bone to signify their near ascension to the Deathwing.

 

Geneseed and Beliefs:

As direct descendents from the Dark Angels, the geneseed of the Knights Viridian is pure and without flaw, although their aptitude for siege warfare is uncommon amongst chapters not drawn from the Imperial Fists though this is little cause for concern.

 

As with their geneseed being as pure as their forbears, the beliefs of the Knights Viridian almost mirror that of their parent chapter. Their intolerance of non-humans borders on obsessive, whilst the hunt for the Fallen outweighs all other concerns, though in the five thousand years of their existence they found but a single one.

 

The Knights Viridian do not, however, venerate the Emperor or their Primarch as highly as their parent chapter, believing that whilst both were mighty heroes of mankind, they failed in their duty; the Emperor unable to keep his sons from falling and the Primarch unable to keep his Legion in check. That such legendary figures are so flawed lends the Knights Viridian a belief that mankind itself is inherently traitorous and betrayal is to be expected.

 

This is perhaps why the Chapter has few allies, save for the near robotic techpriests of Ordana, and even contact with their fellow successor chapters is limited.

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

edit; Thanks to InquisitorHayn for the BBCodes. Learn something every day!

Edited May 26, 2012 by Valkyrion

[InquisitorHayn]

Hello there. Sadly, I'm unable to give this the attention it deserves at the moment, though I shall endeavor to peruse it at a better time. For now, I just wanted to chime in with a potential name. Perhaps exchange Viridian for Malachite? Maybe even change up the word Knight? Maybe something like Cataphractes Malachite? Maybe it's a little long. I don't know. Just a thought. And if anyone asks, no, Cataphractes is not the proper conjugation of the word. It just flows better, in my opinion.

 

Oh, one more thing. Could you perhaps make some visual separations in the IA? It's very straining to read as is, what with everything the same font, color, justification and size. Incase you're not familiar with the coding, here's a useful resource that helps immensely. BBCode 101

 

Cheers.

[Valkyrion]

So good it's left you all speechless, I geddit. :tu:

[CKO]

Bare with me I am trying to give feedback to several people at once by reading 1 section at a time, so I have only read the origin section.

 

Your origin section is all over the place. I dont like the idea of 7 chapters basically a legion crusading together. There is no problem with them crusading alone but together would violate the Codex Astartes. The whole point of the Codex Astartes is to make sure that one man could never command the power of a legion.

 

Besides you say they did their own thing so why not take out the other chapters and have your Chapter cleanse a system by themselves. You also mention that they dislike orbital bombardment, stuff like that should go in the combat doctrine section.

[InquisitorHayn]

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you there, CKO. There have been multiple instances where Chapters banded together in a common mission, ie. the Badab War, Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Damocles Crusade, etc. It might be a bit of a stretch to say that the entirety of the seven Chapters were on Crusade at once, but the basic idea is not unheard of.

 

Told you I'd be back, Valkyrion, so here I am. Let's begin. Oh, and I've had this page up for some time due to multi-tasking, so forgive me if some of this has already been addressed.

 

Origins:

The chapters founded from the stock of Dorn, Guilliman and Corax often worked side by side and their progress far outstripped that of the Knights Viridian who themselves kept their own counsel, refusing to take to the field of battle with another chapter.

It would be a poor choice on the part of the Crusade commander (likely a Lord-Admiral or what have you) to request the assistance of a Chapter that didn't coordinate with anyone. If this is going to be your Chapter's outlook, I would suggest that you either devise a good reason why they decide to separate from the rest of the Crusade or leave out the group outing altogether. If it's all about the Knights, the extra Chapters thrown in just seem like a desperate attempt to say "we were far too cool to associate with the rest of them." You can't even really justify this by using the Unforgiven vs. Fallen thing, as the DA have coordinated with other Imperial organizations before.

 

Meticulous in the extreme, the Knights Viridian eschewed orbital bombardments unless absolutely necessary, preferring instead to overwhelm their enemies eye to eye. Only then, they believed, could the cleansing of the planet be total, whilst the fledging chapter gained invaluable combat experience with bolter and blade rather than continent sized warheads. Implacable in the advance and resolute in defence, the chapter evidently followed their forbears ideals on the art of war, though the sacking of the alien citadel of Varesh showed a discipline in siege warfare which would make even an Imperial Fist proud.

Suggest moving to Combat Doctrine. This doesn't really help to fill out your origin story. Also, the logic here is flawed. The purpose of orbital bombardment is to ensure near-total destruction, after which it only remains to mop up. Space Marines are effective brooms, but capital ships are leafblowers.

 

At the completion of the campaign each chapter was given the chance to adopt a world for their own though only two chapters chose to do so. The Sable Guard, sons of Rogal Dorn, took the world of Sturngrad and the Knights Viridian took the world of Calfax.

Is the Sable Guard another of your Chapters? Just curious as to their significance to the IA.

 

Homeworld:

Eschewing a traditional fortress monastery...

This is unnecessary. Most of them are fairly unique.

 

Note: The battle descriptions you included really don't lend anything to the piece. All they really tell us is that your Chapter acts almost exactly as the Unforgiven would be expected to, and that you've read Angels of Darkness.

 

Organization:

The 10th Company, however, is very different from the norm. Aside from containing Scouts, the 10th also maintain several squads of Nightwing, fully fledged battle brothers, who fight alongside the scouts. The company itself specialises in battlefield disruption and enemy isolation, destroying their foes piecemeal. The Nightwing stand apart from their brothers, each taking a vow of silence and isolation except when on combat duty and even then talking only to other Nightwing. Their armour is painted a midnight blue, covered with black robes, with Chapter and squad markings removed. Should another Space Marine ever see a Nightwing without their helmet they would see the chapter symbol branded into their forehead, a sign of penance for sins known only to the Grand Master of the Chapter.

Okay. Why? Aside from just wanting a cool feature with a different color scheme, what is the purpose of this? The reason Scouts are armored as they are, aside from geneseed immaturity, is because it is conducive to the type of operations in which they regularly engage. It's not out of the question, but without a better explanation it just doesn't make sense, especially considering your Chapter's repeatedly (and somewhat unnecessarily) alleged reduction in numbers. Fully armoured Marines would be a boon to companies already at half strength, but instead they are set to duties that Scouts are better equipped to handle. It's fine to have cool features, but I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief here.

 

The chapters Deathwing and Ravenwing companies are identical to those of the other Unforgiven chapters, although each company is considered to be at full strength if it numbers fifty, rather than one hundred battle brothers.

Companies six through nine are the chapters reserve companies and broadly follow standard Codex practices, though Company six is in fact identical to other chapters Battle Companies.

And they don't attempt to replenish their numbers why?

 

Though the companies are now once again separate entities, the Captain of the 3rd is known as the Siege Master and the Captains of the 4th and 5th answer directly to him, making the Siege Master the most powerful individual in the chapter, save for the Grand Master himself.

The predisposition toward siege warfare is fine, though it is largely a situationally dependent form of warfare. Devoting so many resources toward it seems like it would be almost crippling in other avenues of operation, but that's just an opinion. Perhaps they've seen enough of that type of combat to justify it.

 

Beliefs:

The Knights Viridian do not, however, venerate the Emperor or their Primarch as highly as their parent chapter, believing that whilst both were mighty heroes of mankind, they failed in their duty; the Emperor unable to keep his sons from falling and the Primarch unable to keep his Legion in check. That such legendary figures are so flawed lends the Knights Viridian a belief that mankind itself is inherently traitorous and betrayal is to be expected.

What drives the Knights to feel this way about there genetic forefathers so strongly? Having been trained by other Unforgiven, it would be difficult to believe that such a dramatic change in the entire Chapter's outlook would just come about from thin air.

 

This is perhaps why the Chapter has few allies, save for the near robotic techpriests of Ordana, and even contact with their fellow successor chapters is limited.

As it is, this seems contrived simply to justify the Chapter having access to good technology.

 

Final Note: One of the things I struggled with at the beginning of my own IA efforts, and one I strongly warn against to others, is basing the article too heavily upon how different the Chapter is from everyone else. I would advise a greater focus on some idea that is specific to your Chapter and explain it without using a lot of the "unlike other Chapters...deviation from the Codex...we do this like the Imperial Fists, etc." style descriptions. Imagine being someone who is brand new to 40k, has the basic idea, but isn't familiar with Chapter backgrounds and novels and so on and so forth. If you didn't understand any of that, would you still understand your Chapter and would it still be as cool?

 

Now that the harsh part's over, I can't wait to see the evolution of the project. And by the by, I really like the Nightwing idea. I just couldn't make sense of it. Cheers!

Edited May 29, 2012 by InquisitorHayn

[Valkyrion]

Origins:

It would be a poor choice on the part of the Crusade commander (likely a Lord-Admiral or what have you) to request the assistance of a Chapter that didn't coordinate with anyone. If this is going to be your Chapter's outlook, I would suggest that you either devise a good reason why they decide to separate from the rest of the Crusade or leave out the group outing altogether. If it's all about the Knights, the extra Chapters thrown in just seem like a desperate attempt to say "we were far too cool to associate with the rest of them." You can't even really justify this by using the Unforgiven vs. Fallen thing, as the DA have coordinated with other Imperial organizations before.

 

It's not a coolness thing, more to tie into the beliefs section that their first chapter thinks the way it does - that mankind is inherently traitorous, so even beyond the 'norm', the Knights distrust all.

It could have been worded better granted, but because beliefs come at the end, I didn't want to confuse the beginning. Even though I did... :D

 

 

Suggest moving to Combat Doctrine. This doesn't really help to fill out your origin story. Also, the logic here is flawed. The purpose of orbital bombardment is to ensure near-total destruction, after which it only remains to mop up. Space Marines are effective brooms, but capital ships are leafblowers.

 

That might be the case, but I don't like it. It goes against everything 40k is, about getting down and dirty and in your face if all you need to do is blast them from orbit. Space Marines don't do the mopping up, their purpose is to do the things no one else can do, move on and let someone else mop up. Where would there be any fighting?

 

 

Is the Sable Guard another of your Chapters? Just curious as to their significance to the IA.

 

Just two names plucked at random. I wanted the chapter to have an astartes enemy without picking a real chapter, because real chapters tend to get official fluff that contradicts everything.

 

 

Homeworld:

Eschewing a traditional fortress monastery...

This is unnecessary. Most of them are fairly unique.

 

Note: The battle descriptions you included really don't lend anything to the piece. All they really tell us is that your Chapter acts almost exactly as the Unforgiven would be expected to, and that you've read Angels of Darkness.

 

I needed a way to explain both their positive relations with the AdMech and their uncharacteristic Siege aptitude, without just saying 'they are friends with the AdMech. Oh, and they break walls good too.'

I liked the idea of the chapter gradually becoming more siege orientated, rather than always being that way and that the three siege companies are really just extensions of each other.

Organization:

 

Okay. Why? Aside from just wanting a cool feature with a different color scheme, what is the purpose of this? The reason Scouts are armored as they are, aside from geneseed immaturity, is because it is conducive to the type of operations in which they regularly engage. It's not out of the question, but without a better explanation it just doesn't make sense, especially considering your Chapter's repeatedly (and somewhat unnecessarily) alleged reduction in numbers. Fully armoured Marines would be a boon to companies already at half strength, but instead they are set to duties that Scouts are better equipped to handle. It's fine to have cool features, but I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief here.

 

Starting with '...repeatedly (and somewhat unnecessarily) alleged reduction in numbers...')

I've only detailed two battles of a 5000 year history, one of which was a 700 year siege against titans that within a century led to another full scale war. I don't think that's either repeated or unnecessary.

As the Nightwing...fair enough. A case of too many eggs perhaps. I liked the idea of a small group of penitent marines a law unto themselves but still serving the chapter. It either needs work or binning.

 

 

And they don't attempt to replenish their numbers why?

 

They are support units, and even with decent ties to the AdMech 100 suits of terminator armour for every DA successor will be difficult to come by. Then there is the trust issue - half as many terminators will know about the Fallen as any other DA successor, plus the combat ideals of the RW don't really fit with my chapter as they would most other DA successors. In this way they can still operate together on a smaller scale, or support the siege companies.

 

 

The predisposition toward siege warfare is fine, though it is largely a situationally dependent form of warfare. Devoting so many resources toward it seems like it would be almost crippling in other avenues of operation, but that's just an opinion. Perhaps they've seen enough of that type of combat to justify it.

 

This seems to be the issue with any IA I try and come up with. I thought an IA was an overview of a chapter, giving basic beliefs and combat doctrines and so on. It's difficult to justify anything within that scope, short of saying 'they fight loads of siege battles' or going into detail about each one. I've given a hint as to their siege nature in the origins and expanded upon it later one.

I know siege warfare is very situational, but they are space marines. If they don't wish to employ siege tactics then they don't need to. If they were called to fight a more conventional battle then they could. It's just that siege is what they excel at. Bare in mind that the Deathwing and Ravenwing are also very situational and even less suited to conventional warfare when taken in isolation.

It is also why I made the 6th Company a traditional battle company, to allow that flexibility.

 

Beliefs:

 

What drives the Knights to feel this way about there genetic forefathers so strongly? Having been trained by other Unforgiven, it would be difficult to believe that such a dramatic change in the entire Chapter's outlook would just come about from thin air.

 

Really? The Angels of Absolution believe themselves to be free from the sin of the Dark Angels, and they are a second founding chapter founded from the original legion, so there is precedent for successors to change their views.

It's not really that dramatic, just playing on the untrustworthy nature of all DA chapters.

 

 

As it is, this seems contrived simply to justify the Chapter having access to good technology.

 

Not at all, just that the forgeworld of ordana is the only other faction that the chapter has had any serious dealings with.

 

Final Note: One of the things I struggled with at the beginning of my own IA efforts, and one I strongly warn against to others, is basing the article too heavily upon how different the Chapter is from everyone else. I would advise a greater focus on some idea that is specific to your Chapter and explain it without using a lot of the "unlike other Chapters...deviation from the Codex...we do this like the Imperial Fists, etc." style descriptions. Imagine being someone who is brand new to 40k, has the basic idea, but isn't familiar with Chapter backgrounds and novels and so on and so forth. If you didn't understand any of that, would you still understand your Chapter and would it still be as cool?

 

Fair comment.

The idea specific to my chapter is the siege thing, the (slight ;) ) deviation of the beliefs and their relationship with the AdMech is just for colour.

But how to expand on being a siege based chapter without either listing a load of increasingly samey battles or just outright saying it?

The difficulty of creating a DA successor is the whole Fallen thing as it's already been done. Like the Blood Angels and the Flaw thing - it's difficult to add something new to what are already cool, set in stone chapters.

 

I've seen comments in other IA's, when commenting on (for example), a bike oriented chapter that isn't from the white scars along the lines of 'why don't you just make them from the white scars, it'll be easier'. I didn't want that about the Imperial Fists and my chapter. I want them to be Dark Angels, but different.

 

Now that the harsh part's over, I can't wait to see the evolution of the project. And by the by, I really like the Nightwing idea. I just couldn't make sense of it. Cheers!

 

Ta!

 

 

(BTW, I have no idea how to do the multi quote thing...)

 

Cheers for that, I hope I've expanded on a few of my thoughts. Origins in particular is an area I find difficult because I end up branching off into combat doctrine or beliefs. I don't like the whole 'shrouded in mystery' thing, 2nd founding chapters already have their origins...If I talk about a siege straight off then is that not combat doctrine? So what do I put in my origins! ;)

[InquisitorHayn]

Cheers for that, I hope I've expanded on a few of my thoughts. Origins in particular is an area I find difficult because I end up branching off into combat doctrine or beliefs. I don't like the whole 'shrouded in mystery' thing, 2nd founding chapters already have their origins...If I talk about a siege straight off then is that not combat doctrine? So what do I put in my origins!

That definitely did help clarify a few things. First, I think I speak for almost everyone in the Liber when I say that the Origins section is possibly the most difficult portion of an IA to write well because it's one of the few places where just listing facts doesn't work. It's where the actual story is told, and also where your readers will be (or not) initially hooked and find a desire to read further. It's also the biggest pain in the tookas. I feel your anguish. As you said, there are a lot of things that have been done. However, if you can just put a new spin on an old idea, sometimes that works, ie. every single BA/DA successor. I'm a Consecrators fan myself, but I digress.

 

It's not a coolness thing, more to tie into the beliefs section that their first chapter thinks the way it does - that mankind is inherently traitorous, so even beyond the 'norm', the Knights distrust all. It could have been worded better granted, but because beliefs come at the end, I didn't want to confuse the beginning.

Remember when suggested finding a theme? I think this massive issue of mistrust might be a winner. The siege thing is fine. It's even an added bonus. But the meat and potatoes of an IA isn't so much in a Chapter's actions (We all know what Space Marines do, after all.) as its overall character. What defines them that we can relate to on an emotional/intellectual level? And here it is. More so than the most taciturn Chapter in existence (DA), the Knights don't trust anybody[/]. And what makes it better is that kind of thing doesn't just pop into someone's head. There must have been some powerful emotional driving force that turned the Chapter down that path. Maybe you could beef up your Origins section by building on that element. Even mix in the siege thing. Perhaps once they were a bit more trusting until they were betrayed/abandoned by their allies in the Siege of Whatsthatplace. Perhaps they did all the work of breaching a bastion, losing numerous resources and Brothers, only to have another steal all of their glory? Maybe someone they thought was their staunchest ally was actually one of the Fallen, and in their rage they literally brought the roof down on him?

 

That might be the case, but I don't like it. It goes against everything 40k is, about getting down and dirty and in your face if all you need to do is blast them from orbit. Space Marines don't do the mopping up, their purpose is to do the things no one else can do, move on and let someone else mop up. Where would there be any fighting?

I agree wholeheartedly. And there's a simple solution. Just omit the part about orbital bombardment. As it's written, it says that your Marines don't orbitally bombard their enemies because they think it works better to do it themselves. Problem is, it doesn't. However, most forces of the Imperium, from my reading, only use orbital bombardment for two purposes: precision strikes to make way for ground forces, and Exterminatus, which is usually the last resort if a world can't be saved. The Imperium doesn't exactly go around world-wiping on a regular basis. It makes it harder to get things from those worlds. That said, you wouldn't need to explain it if you just didn't include it.

 

Just two names plucked at random. I wanted the chapter to have an astartes enemy without picking a real chapter, because real chapters tend to get official fluff that contradicts everything.

Ooh! Good guy versus good guy action. I like it! :P

 

I needed a way to explain both their positive relations with the AdMech and their uncharacteristic Siege aptitude, without just saying 'they are friends with the AdMech. Oh, and they break walls good too.' I liked the idea of the chapter gradually becoming more siege orientated, rather than always being that way and that the three siege companies are really just extensions of each other.

Okay. I think you could use the "we saved their bums at Ordana" thing to your advantage then. Your Chapter lost its entirety and more over the course of that endeavour. After such an ordeal, I would think that a simple "thanks" would surely not suffice. Perhaps the forge world swore an oath to repay the debt. One day comes along and you have a mission that requires siege engines or something that you don't have. Time to call in that favor, eh? Stating the facts is enough for a quick datasheet, but you're telling us the story of your Chapter's trials and heroism. A little fluff and colour will help us connect the dots.

 

Starting with '...repeatedly (and somewhat unnecessarily) alleged reduction in numbers...')

I've only detailed two battles of a 5000 year history, one of which was a 700 year siege against titans that within a century led to another full scale war. I don't think that's either repeated or unnecessary.

Please forgive my poor choice of words. What I was getting at is that a recurring theme in your IA is the fact that the Chapter is almost constantly under strength. Aside from the fact that most Chapters would be below full staffing from mere attrition (though I realize that it's excessive in the Knights' case), what is this fact supposed to convey? By itself, the having reduced numbers thing doesn't really say anything meaningful. Are there not enough recruits? Is there a problem with the implantation process? Is it simply to convey the constant state of warfare in which the Chapter is embroiled?

 

They are support units, and even with decent ties to the AdMech 100 suits of terminator armour for every DA successor will be difficult to come by. Then there is the trust issue - half as many terminators will know about the Fallen as any other DA successor, plus the combat ideals of the RW don't really fit with my chapter as they would most other DA successors. In this way they can still operate together on a smaller scale, or support the siege companies.

Ah, now I see. The wording of this in the IA is confusing. It makes it seem like they simply can't replenish their numbers as opposed to this being an intentional state of affairs. I might add, though, that many of the DA's successors would be unable to field a fully TDA-equipped First Company. Yet most still have the full amount of Marines. One doesn't need to wear Terminator armour either to be a veteran or to be in on a secret, after all. But I can understand your choice if you decide to keep it Terminator-only.

 

This seems to be the issue with any IA I try and come up with. I thought an IA was an overview of a chapter, giving basic beliefs and combat doctrines and so on. It's difficult to justify anything within that scope, short of saying 'they fight loads of siege battles' or going into detail about each one. I've given a hint as to their siege nature in the origins and expanded upon it later one. I know siege warfare is very situational, but they are space marines. If they don't wish to employ siege tactics then they don't need to. If they were called to fight a more conventional battle then they could. It's just that siege is what they excel at. Bare in mind that the Deathwing and Ravenwing are also very situational and even less suited to conventional warfare when taken in isolation. It is also why I made the 6th Company a traditional battle company, to allow that flexibility.

You're absolutely right. It is hard to justify these things. However, the believability of the thing (with allowances for it being a work of science fiction) is the difference between a good IA that you're gripped by from beginning to end and one that you kinda just skim through. If it was easy, C&C wouldn't really have a purpose, eh? And it's not just you, mate. It happens to all of us. I've been working on my poor Storm Stalkers for a good portion of two years and they're still not done ("done" being a very relative term and me being a picky writer). In fact, they're entirely different now from when I started. Just remember that you're the one submitting your work for critique and that, ultimately, you decide what stays and what goes. All we can do is offer advice and opinions. It's your masterpiece. As to the whole siege thing, as I said, it's fine but if we could get a bit more elaboration that'd be great. Avid readers/writers are just like kids, I'm afraid. You tell us anything, no matter how much sense it makes to you, and our first question will always be "Why?".

 

Really? The Angels of Absolution believe themselves to be free from the sin of the Dark Angels, and they are a second founding chapter founded from the original legion, so there is precedent for successors to change their views. It's not really that dramatic, just playing on the untrustworthy nature of all DA chapters.

That's quite a separate set of circumstances. The original Angels of Absolution, having been part of the original Legion, were there when the Battle of Caliban and the splitting of the Legion occurred. Most of the boys saw these events and said "I can't believe we let this happen. It's our responsibility to fix it." The AoA were just a bunch of Marines who said "I don't see how that's my problem. I didn't do anything wrong that I need to earn forgiveness for." The Knights, on the other hand, were not there. They were trained by Marines who were trained by Marines who were trained by Marines, very few of which have even the slightest idea what actually happened. That's a lotof indoctrination to break on a whim.

 

I've seen comments in other IA's, when commenting on (for example), a bike oriented chapter that isn't from the white scars along the lines of 'why don't you just make them from the white scars, it'll be easier'. I didn't want that about the Imperial Fists and my chapter. I want them to be Dark Angels, but different.

I've seen these as well and, to a degree, they're correct. However, there are a few implied words missing from the statement. It would be easier to do well. That's the major issue with a lot of IAs. One of the cookie cutter ways people try to be different is taking one Chapter's style and sliding in to replace another's. We've seen it done so often and many people are very lazy about it. Can't blame them really, GW Chapters are often done the same way. Case in point, the Raven Guard. Boo me all you like, sons of Corax, but when you step back for a second, the idea of a five hundred pound man the size of a Buick in nuclear-powered, servo-actuated plate armor, toting a gun that shoots rocket-propelled ammunition moving stealthily across a distance of even two meters becomes laughable. However, some people are okay with "just 'cause" for an explanation. The question then becomes, "Are you?".

 

When we submit IAs to the Liber, we're submitting them to be read. People will have opinions and expectations. I had the same issues. My Chapter is descended from the Fists and they're not siege-nuts. I went through endless critique, most constructive, some not. I rewrote the thing over a dozen times. In the end, you simply have to decide to what quality you want to build your submission. When you reach a point where you're happy, stop. You don't have to please anybody. Unless you want to. In the latter case, I would love to read what you come up with. :D Cheers, mate, and good luck to you.

 

EDIT:

(BTW, I have no idea how to do the multi quote thing...)

Just copy-paste what you want to quote, highlight it, then press the little speech bubble button under the font box. Or you can type the quote tags yourself.

blahblagittyblah[/quote1] (just take out the 1's)

Edited May 29, 2012 by InquisitorHayn