Stormtalon Gunship

[infornography]

I do not propose assuming that you will always get the statistically likely result.  The purpose of mathhammering the statistics is to get a truly unbiased view of the precise capabilities of each weapon system.  With more precise information at your disposal you can make better judgement calls on the statistical likelihood of success with a given weapon.  It doesn't mean I am ignoring the random nature of the game, but it does mean I am stacking the deck in my favor so to speak.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Allow me to reiterate and expand upon a previous statement.  I have played a Storm Talon with lascannons, and I have played one with skyhammers.  In both cases, I used them specifically as an interceptor.  In the cases where there were no flyers in the enemy force, the skyhammers gave a decent account of themselves against Rhinos and infantry where the lascannon variant relied on the assault cannons for effective employment against infantry.  However, in their primary-assigned role of shooting down aircraft, the HammerTalon had zero air-to-air kills against my LasTalon's seven air-to-air kills (that's one Dakkajet, two Ravens, two Vendettas, and two Scythes).

 

In my anecdotal experience, lascannons make the Talon a better interceptor whereas skyhammers make it a better ground-attack fighter.

 

 

And since neither of us are going to budge, can we move on?

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I've been considering deploying a stormtalon as escort to a stormraven. Since the talon would be acting as an inceptor, I was thinking lascannons would be best option. Just curious if anyone had any results to share.

[Muctar]

I've escorted a Storm Eagle (not Stormraven) with a LC Talon with fantastic success. Since the Eagle is very similar to the Raven I believe my experience would be similar if I had used a Raven. The Eagle drew almost all of the anti-flier fire with very little damage done to it, which left the Talon to blast away at Flyrants and juicy ground targets. If I had faced other flyers I feel confident the Talon would have performed admirably in its anti-flyer role. The extra strength and AP bonus to damage was great for targeting vehicles.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

Yeah it seems like a win-win. If the raven takes the brunt of the AA fire then the talon can focus on target removal. If the talon takes the brunt of AA fire then the raven is free to drop it's embarked units.

[Disruptor_fe404]

So they really do have Strafing Run straight up now? No having to sit in place to use it?

 

I like.

[Azash]

So they really do have Strafing Run straight up now? No having to sit in place to use it?

 

I like.

 

Yes they do per pg 57 in Death from the Skies and they have hover. Strafing Run, Hover, and the points adjustment made me change my opinion on skyhammers. I think they are well worth it now. Mind you I was taking TL HB's and using the Storm Talon as a ground pounding roll. 

 

Sky hammers against ground targets with Strafing are BS 5 so you really it's almost as good as a TL BS 4. Skyhammers are Heavy 3 as well, and they are higher Strength but the same AP as HB's. Where I think hover helps out is the odd ball thing about the Skyhammers was the 60" range. Fliers have to move 18" and can go 36" so even with a 36" range weapons like the HB there is no spot on the board inside your firing arc that's out of range.  However with Hover you can now move on in Hover mode depending on your opponents deployment and the Battlefield type and you can actually try to make use of that 60" range.

 

Where I think the Skyhammer is superior to the lascannon is versatility, its Heavy 3 so it in combination with the Assault cannon can better saturate targets so you have better capability against ground units (especially in infantry heavy meta of 6th). Litterally we are talking about killing an additional two guardsman, orks, etc per turn. Sounds minor but that may be enough to make them break. Also overtime that's 12 models a game. as opposed to 4 so basically the skyhammer means your killing or capable of killing an additional squad of fire warriors per game. Against Anti armor your decent against armor 11, you got a shot at 12, and at least a prayer at taking out 13.

 

All in all I would still say the Typhoon is a better option cause of the Krakk and Frag options but for only 15 pts the Skyhammer has them beat as well.

[Excubitor]

What I like about the new rules is the simple fact that a Talon with Skyhammers is 5 points cheaper than the old Talon with no upgrades. For me it's now a choice of - "hmm, Dread with 2xTLAC at BS4, or Talon with Assault Cannon and Skyhammers at BS5", when making lists. Guess which wins?

Of course, sometimes I say 'stuff it, take both!"

[Krishar]

With the cost of a Stormtalon with Skyhammer missile launcher being at 125 now, I'm considering dumping my two trusty Typhoon speeders that each sit at 90 points, and run with 2 dual stormtalon instead for only 60 points more..

Edited March 2, 2013 by Krishar

[aquamarine]

With the cost of a Stormtalon with Skyhammer missile launcher being at 125 now, I'm considering dumping my two trusty Typhoon speeders that each sit at 90 points, and run with 2 dual stormtalon instead for only 60 points more..

Am keeping my 2 Typhoons but having my shiny new purchased-today Storm Talon too, replacing my combi-pred...Air Cav theme...

[bjoluemblem]

Ran in a small tourney with two skyhammer stormtalons. Absolutely priceless. They destroyed in three matches:

 

7 sternguard

IC Dreadnought

2 drop pods

3 foot marines

 

5 eldar jetbikes

10 IG vets in cover

5 fire dragons

1 farseer on bike

glanced hull points off eldar infantry transports, 1 hp off a leman russ (side armor)

 

1 heldrake

15 noise marines

3 khorne berzerkers

1 wound on Khârn

 

Overall, absolutely awesome. with the price reduction, they did far more damage than an equivalent rifleman dread could do, i think. It was all the more hilarious for the turns the opponents spent shooting at them and doing nothing. Flyers OP? I tried the TML version, not my favorite especially with the points cost. I'll still have to try the other iterations of the stormpidgeon, but I'm really enjoying them the way they are right now.

[treadiculous]

^^ excellent feedback, its great to have evidence for decision making.

 

I'm warming to the idea of skyhammers a lot now:

 

1) the Hover mode allows the option of using the 60" range,

2) the cost makes them viable,

3) the synergise well with assault cannons

 

Looking forward to fielding my Templar Storm - Wing

[Iron Father Ferrum]

^^ excellent feedback, its great to have evidence for decision making.

 

I'm warming to the idea of skyhammers a lot now:

 

1) the Hover mode allows the option of using the 60" range,

2) the cost makes them viable,

3) the synergise well with assault cannons

 

Looking forward to fielding my Templar Storm - Wing

 

How does a 60" S7 AP4 Heavy 3 weapon synergize with a 24" S6 AP4 Heavy 4 Twin-linked weapon? The only thing they have in common is AP4. Their range bands are ridicuously skewed; if you're using Hover mode and the 60" range to stand-off and engage at extreme range, then you are getting zero use out of the assault cannons. They're both good for engaging light infantry and have high enough strength to threaten light armor and monstrous creatures, but their AP precludes them being excellent heavy infantry (read: Marine) killers. With the lascannons, at least the assault cannons can keep up against heavy armor because they can rend and achieve a better penetration than the lascannons.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Deus Ex Ferrum

[PaganLinuxGeek]

If there were an option to replace the assault cannon with a longer range, higher strength, lower rate of fire weapon than the stormtalon would be better suited to longer range use. It has still performed well for me however with the tl-lc option so I can't complain. Still a guy can wish.

[treadiculous]

Fair point Ferrum, I concede that synergy is not found by looking at the range, but I feel an assault cannon will get best results firing at similar targets as an S7 weapon with 3 shots, light vehicles, standard and elite infantry, MC's, Characters etc.

 

The AP of the Skyhammer does let it down, and the short range of the assault cannon forces it to close on the enemy if you want to use it.

 

For me, my Stormtalons are rarely to be fielded on anything but my apocalypse table, and they'll be facing orks, so 60" is very handy... once things get close it'll turn to flyer mode and blitz out with the AC's too.

 

I can see the strong aarguement for TL Lascannons if the Stormtalon were in an 'all comers' list.

[DarkGuard]

Fair point Ferrum, I concede that synergy is not found by looking at the range, but I feel an assault cannon will get best results firing at similar targets as an S7 weapon with 3 shots, light vehicles, standard and elite infantry, MC's, Characters etc.

 

The AP of the Skyhammer does let it down, and the short range of the assault cannon forces it to close on the enemy if you want to use it.

 

For me, my Stormtalons are rarely to be fielded on anything but my apocalypse table, and they'll be facing orks, so 60" is very handy... once things get close it'll turn to flyer mode and blitz out with the AC's too.

 

I can see the strong aarguement for TL Lascannons if the Stormtalon were in an 'all comers' list.

 

This is why they synergize.

 

You cannot claim the assault cannon synergizes with any weapon range except bolters, storm bolters, MMs, and possible heavy bolters/plasma cannons. With the Skyhammers they enjoy hitting the same targets, which they should easily be able to both do with the movement the Stormtalon offers. And they also allow it to have that range, something which is very important if you need to hover and pick off a target on the other side of the field. It gives the Stormtalon a flexibility it otherwise might not have.

[Kyzr]

I'm confused.

 

Can you not fire both the Skyhammer and the Assault Cannon in the same turn?

[tvih]

Can you not fire both the Skyhammer and the Assault Cannon in the same turn?

Of course you can.

[infornography]

Yep, it is all about preferred targets.

 

Las cannons are best at taking out heavy vehicles, light vehicles and in a pinch, terminators.

 

Assault cannons and skyhammers both go for light vehicles and infantry.  Much better synergy.

 

Also when going after vehicles both assault cannons and skyhammers are optimized for hull point removal.  Las cannons are optimized for chance at the quick kill.  It is better to pair hull point removal weapons with each other so that they have a better chance of removing enough hull points.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, as anecdotal evidence, I shall submit the following.  I recently took a pair of LasTalons to a tournament in the Penescola area.  Across four games, my Talons shot down three Heldrakes and a Night Scythe (the other two players fielded no flyers).  Of these four air-to-air kills, three of them -- two Drakes and the Scythe -- went down due to the penetrative power of the lascannons rolling 5s or 6s.  The only intercept the assault cannon gets credit for is one of the Drakes, against which the lascannon hit was saved (despite Null Zone) but the assault cannon scored four hits in a single shooting phase (none of which were saved, thanks to Null Zone).  Again, anecdotal, but this is why I prefer the outright killing power of the lascannons.  In fact, the only flyers I faced which survived past Turn Three were the other four Night Scythes (my first time against the Flying Circus, and he had Chaos allies in there to boot!).

 

In other news, the lascannon's high strength value also paid off against an opponent's Broadside teams; instant-killing them is always nice, after the shield drones were stripped by the assault cannon wounds.  And of course, the inevitable flying DP also got a taste when I focused both Talons on it.  Although out of Null Zone range at the time, he did take two wounds (and a third when he failed his Grounding roll) from the Talons, and a Razorback finished him off.

[Sons of Russ]

I do run a pair of these... Would run three if I could move my bikes to troop slots...

Bike Captain/Master in your future?